Queer Commerce, Global Markets: Darrell Schuurman's Vision for Inclusive Business

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:01  
This is forward motion discussions about the important topic shaping Ontario's tourism industry. Here's your host, Andrew sigward,

Andrew Siegwart  0:09  
welcome to the forward motion podcast. Joining us for a great conversation today is Daryl Sherman, CEO of the CG, LCC, Canada's 2s LGBTQ, i plus Chamber of Commerce, we have a great discussion covering a lot of important topics, including the DEI disruption that's happening globally. CG LCCs work in helping Canadian businesses export to global markets, authentically marketing to the queer community and so much more. This is a very timely conversation, and I really hope that you enjoy it. Welcome to forward motion. Daryl, how are you

Darrell Schuurman  0:41  
I'm great. How are you doing? Andrew, I'm good. Thanks

Andrew Siegwart  0:44  
for being here with us. This is going to be a lot of fun. We always like to start by asking our guests a little bit about their career journey so far. And of course, what led you to the CG, LCC, so let us know how that went. So

Darrell Schuurman  0:57  
I grew up in Alberta. I grew up in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. And so, you know, I think from that moment, you know, being out in the mountains and being able to experience, you know, the great outdoors of Alberta, you know, just I was always kind of drawn to to the tourism industry, I think from an early age, you know, I had the luxury of being exposed to some great tourism product, but I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs. And my parents, they started their own business, and they grew to be a very successful business. And so I think through that, through kind of experiencing what they what they went through, it kind of started to run into my it was flowing through my blood. I guess entrepreneurship and business was flowing through my my blood. Those two things really kind of shaped me from an early age. Is like, you know, kind of the love of travel and exploration, the outdoors and and seeing my parents and how successful they could be through hard work and and being their own boss, you know, kind of drove me down into the path of, kind of, ultimately, where we see me today is like leading an organization that is all around, you know, supporting entrepreneurs. But you know, the trajectory to get to where I am now is, you know, it saw me in working in the nonprofit sector, in the tourism industry, supporting kind of those businesses. And at that time, it was the Canadian tourism human resource Council, now the tourism HR Council, but really focused around supporting tourism industries and helping to develop tourism employees and helping to make sure that they have the skills and the ability to to succeed again, kind of reinforcing that passion for for tourism, but also it kind of started me down that nonprofit road, you know, and it's, it's perhaps sometimes I question why I got into the nonprofit world, but I think it's because the ultimate impact that you're creating, and I see that that impact that you can create, and the importance that civil society and nonprofit organizations play in helping to drive greater change and it can still have a significant impact on our economy, where we as local municipalities or countries on a whole, are really going through that experience of working with thrc got me to really appreciate the power that we as individuals can have on driving change. So marrying all of that together ultimately ended me up in starting this organization which is very much focused on those elements, and then adding in that queer piece, growing up in Alberta as a gay kid, not the easiest. I won't lie. I'm sure. Yes, it had its moments, but it also, again, helped shape who I am and ultimately, what I wanted to do. And how do I make the world a little bit of better place for for people like me, for queer people that are struggling. And, you know, I was very fortunate. I had a very loving family. And not everybody has that. You know, we certainly saw that growing up, that some of individuals, and we still see that today, you know, people have those challenges, and being to us LGBTQI, and really being able to kind of contribute to, to helping to advance that that social element through the work that I do is is really rewarding.

Andrew Siegwart  4:27  
You're really tapping into a number of themes there. So the Alberta culture and experience of entrepreneurialism. It's such a deep seated and proud thing that people experience when they grow up. I find it actually quite inspiring that you know you you worked with entrepreneurs, you were exposed to them all your life as a child, and as you get older, what you want to do is be there to help them and support them. And I think that it's probably very connected to your experience with your family and just wanting to give back. I

Darrell Schuurman  4:56  
remember as a kid, I'd get up. At like, four in the morning. And my my mom was there making breakfast for dad, and he'd be heading out to to the bush. So he's a logging contractor, you know, he'd be heading out and be out the door at 430 wouldn't get back till till dark. And so I remember waking up and like, just seeing, like, the that the passion that they put in, but the blood, sweat and tears and, you know, the struggles that they face, you know, financial and and especially in the forestry industry, when you know we're hearing that today, it's not a new challenge. It's been like these are. The forest industry has been facing these these challenges for for decades. And so, you know, seeing these struggles that these entrepreneurs are facing as a kid, as might see, my family experience that I think also helped shape like, how can I make things just a little bit easier for for the next entrepreneur? And,

Andrew Siegwart  5:50  
you know, I have had a similar shared experience in that. I grew up in Thunder Bay, so that was not exactly the easiest place to be queer in when you're at that age, at that time, I won't date myself in terms of what year that and also having a family in Pulp and Paper business. So you know that volatility, right? It's really shaped how I think about this tariff discussion, because I remember what it was like when those sectors faced the big challenges, when a lot of those mills shut down here. So correct me if I'm wrong, but was your father not involved in setting up an association of logging professionals way back in the day

Darrell Schuurman  6:27  
he was, he was, and, you know, my father is for the listeners. You can see, I'm using air quotes, but he's retired now, but you know, he's still, you know, he's still leading that that association. It is something that for him, it's really important and the members of that because he represents, kind of the smaller bloggers, smaller companies out there, and really working to make sure that their voice and the work that they're doing is continue to be heard and represented. And like we said, it's not an easy time right now. For those that are in softwood lumber industry and pulp and paper, it's a difficult industry right now, so having those advocates is truly important.

Andrew Siegwart  7:11  
Well, I think what you just described gives the listeners a little bit of a clue as to what influences have shaped where you are and what you're doing as well. And I think that's great, and I also think it's a great example of how you can look at two very different industries, not for profit sector or tourism, and then you can look at a resources sector, and you can see how they have similar needs. They need collaboration and partnership. Those networks that we all work in really matter. And so I think there's a lot of common ground on some of those things, no matter what industry you're in. So thanks for sharing that. Well. Thank you. You know, I'm not sure if this can be found on your on your LinkedIn or not. I should have looked beforehand, but you've had some pretty interesting tourism posts in your in your career, right working for the Alberta motor Association, doing some travel planning, working for via rail. So you have a depth of work in in tourism and in front line and in management stuff. So how did those experiences sort of shape your your leadership role? Now, any fond memories there that you've brought forward?

Darrell Schuurman  8:13  
You know, I have not thought of the Alberta motor Association in in a while, but, you know, that was a that was a great experience. I worked with the CA in Alberta, there for kind of while I was at university. And again, it's like it was kind of continuing to to follow in my passion of the tourism industry. You know, I mentioned, kind of where I first kind of fell in love with travel is through, you know, being in Alberta. And my parents were fortunate enough, as they grew their business, we were able to actually start to travel. And so my parents, we traveled a lot. You know, when we were younger, we'd take the, I remember, the camper trailer out, and we went through, you know, Yellow Knife and, oh, wow, Mount Rushmore. And you know, we're in this like camper trailer with the four of us, but really got to experience that. And so you're right. So that's that has kind of fed into a lot of elements of my my career. Then, you know, as I continue to see and experience what the tourism industry could do and the opportunities there, you know, that helped shape kind of where I wanted to, kind of how I wanted to be a part of the industry, you know. So I talked about, you know, the work that I was doing with with thr C, but, you know, on the nonprofit side, but also in the in the for profit side, you know, mentioning via rail, you know, what an experience to be able to be with, you know, a national, a national organization which is, which is truly iconic, I think, for the country. And, you know, listen, I know that they have challenges. They are truly a company that can provide such an amazing experience for visitors to really be. Able to experience everything that this country has. And I tell everybody, if they've never done it, they should at least once in their lifetime, travel this country by train, because it is truly the most special way to experience what we as a country have to offer. And but yeah, it's certainly shaped, I think, how my leadership style, in terms of the importance of, when you're in the tourism industry, as you as you know, it's, it's very much, it's a service based industry, and making sure that you're, you're focused on how you providing the best experiences, the best products to your customers. And so it became very focused. That's how I kind of kind of led, is like really looking to, how are we bringing the most joy to our customers that and bringing satisfaction and engagement to our employees, and continuing to drive that innovation? And you know, because innovation within the tourism industry, as we know is, is so, so critical, we need to continue to to keep products fresh, find new ways to attract people, reinventing, right? And so, so I think, yeah, all of those experiences from my university days, helping people trout, plan their trips, one of the things that I did do for a span, you know, as kind of as an extension of the work that we did with, that I've been doing with, with the CJ LCC is launched a program specifically focused on queer tourism. And so it was called Travel gay candidate at the time, and and we ran that for, I think, close to a good decade, and it was very much centered around kind of what we just been talking about is like, how do we continue to to drive the tourism industry. How do we bring to bring visitors to experience Canada and help to grow tourism receipts here, but really focused on a specific market, and that was the tourist, LGBTQI traveler, you know, really had the opportunity there to to work with the community, work with the industry across the country, to get them to understand the opportunities that this market has, and then help to to get them ready, and then start to, like, really promote the country and all the great assets that it has. You know, it's funny, we we started that program back in it was around 2004 and so it was before same sex marriage became legal, and we reached out to at that time as a Canadian Tourism Commission, and they were freaked out. They didn't know what to do with this, you know, because it certainly wasn't, you know, at that point, you know, we can't talk about this, you know, that's we're not in that space. But what's so amazing is that they did, you know we, they were willing to sit down and listen to us and then start to work with us and start to because they saw the opportunities. They saw what these markets, what this market could, could mean for for Canada, and not only from a tourism perspective, but I think, from a broader social side, is like really promoting this as as a country that is truly rooted in in diversity and inequity, that was, dating myself, that's, that's, you know, that was like 20 odd years ago that we

Andrew Siegwart  13:11  
started. You've done a lot in in 20 odd years, for sure. But I think what you're what you're also talking about. I think what's so cool about that initiative is, in many ways, you were, you were ready to bring a concept and product to the table which really reinforces Canadian values and brand Canada. And you were ahead of the curve, as when the rest of the world was ready, you were ready to go, and we could be that welcoming destination in Canada. And you know, when I think about what we're dealing with right now in sort of global trade again, you know, we really do need to rely on our true Canadian values in order to succeed in a more complex market. So I'm glad we're talking today, because you've been doing this kind of work for quite a long time, and it's not something that happens by accident. And I think, you know, you were making a bit of a joke about, you know, there's all these things I've done and it's taken a long time. I think the reality is these kinds of, let's call it, social progress takes time. So hats off to you. Although we're

Darrell Schuurman  14:10  
now in a society where we we look for immediate gratification, right? We want things to we want change to happen so much quicker, and we should like I think that's okay, but we have to appreciate that. Not everything can happen overnight. We need to be persistent. We need to be committed and dedicated and sometimes patient for this change. And so, you know, when I look back and when we started the chamber, and, you know, started some of the work that we've been doing in the tourism space, it has been like just over it's been over 20 years. It has taken a while, but I feel that we've progressed so much, and we look back at same sex marriage didn't exist. Destinations weren't actively out there targeting the queer community. Certainly didn't see businesses having rainbow flags act like kind of broadly across. The country, having rainbow flags and, you know, and touting the work that that they are doing to support the community. You know, there are certainly leaders in the in the industry, you know. So, you know, in Montreal and Toronto were doing some great things, but that was pretty much it. But now you look to see across the country, like so many destinations, rural destinations, small businesses, you know, coast to coast to coast, have really understood, and not just from a business side of in terms of like, you know, growing your business, but just like the imperative of making sure that you have an inclusive, inclusive organization, inclusive destination, you know, to attract talent, to attract investment. And just, you know, as part of your your social mandate, you know, we need to make sure that everybody within our community has the best supports and is truly able to contribute to to our economy. And that's where, you know, that's where this all fits into, kind of our broad mandate at the Chamber is, you know, how are we driving economic inclusion for for the entire community?

Andrew Siegwart  16:04  
The CG, LCC is Canada's 2s LGBTQIA plus Chamber of Commerce. So for those who might not be aware, could you explain the sort of the that that coalition of partners and members?

Darrell Schuurman  16:19  
It is a mouthful. And appreciate that. And, you know, I think, and you'll probably hear through the conversation here that I use a variety of different language and and quite often use queer now to kind of encapsulate the entire kind of spectrum of the truth LGBTQI plot, you know, it's, it's evolved over that, you know, kind of the language has evolved over the last several decades, and and I think we it will continue to evolve, and it it's really about, it's recognizing those people that you know are kind of outside of the traditional heterosexual kind of space. But, you know, the acronym itself can just give a little quick overview. But over the last couple years, you know, you started to see the 2s which is represents a Two Spirit community, community, or indigenous peoples that have what they say, two spirits, and so kind of both the masculine and feminine. So it's recognizing them and and you see that we, along with the federal government, kind of coming out of the federal LGBT LGBT action plan, put them at the at this at the front of the acronym. And that's really to recognize, you know, that they have been stewards of these lands for for forever, for millennial And so really, giving that recognition to our Two Spirit and our indigenous communities and the LGBT is probably what most people have, we've commonly used for for a long time. You know, it's representing our lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans or communities. And then you know what on a global footprint, you see, I which is intersex, and that is really, again, making sure that we're representative of the broader community, but also looking at from a global landscape, and making sure that we're reflective of how the communities are being recognized globally. And then we use the plus just to to make sure that, you know, but this language doesn't necessarily include everybody, and so we want to make sure that anybody that's kind of not represented or doesn't necessarily identify with one of those letters, but may choose to identify in another way, but they are still part of this. I think it's, you know, it's sometimes perceived as it's a lot and it's a mouthful, but I think it's important for us to recognize, you know, every single to best, to the best of our ability to recognize each of those community members and kind of the role that they play and who we ultimately serve.

Andrew Siegwart  18:43  
And it's an acknowledgement of who these people are and their needs. And I think it's also powerful, because, I mean, we have enough difficulty across political lines, across geographic lines nations, there's so much division and need for coalition building, and even within this community, we're very different. To me, it's an example of how the more we think we're different, the more the same we all are. Right? It's always work to bring people together and to recognize them. You know, from your perspective, working with this variety of groups under a chamber of commerce model membership, you know, besides the obvious connection, what issues and needs bind this community together?

Darrell Schuurman  19:22  
The biggest thing is really just that sense of community. I think if I was to put into one word, I'd say, you know, we have to recognize that we are using, like, 2s LGBTQI plus or queer, you know, kind of as an umbrella term. These are very distinct communities. But I think what we're trying to build, and what I think is needed, is still that sense of support and a sense of belonging for what we do at the chamber and representing queer owned businesses, is very much that it's an opportunity for people that have shared lived experiences to be able to. To to connect. Yes, we want them to do business, but also to support each other, and sometimes that opportunity to be together in a space where we can understand what each other are going through, to some degree, I think that's a big piece. It's just that, that sense of connection. But like I said, obviously, for us as a business organization, it is also very much around, how can we do business together? How can we support each other, either starting or growing our on our enterprise and helping to kind of stimulate that and grow the local economy, provincial or federal economies,

Andrew Siegwart  20:40  
yeah, and that's a great binding mission. Is that, that support and camaraderie, but also focusing on business and learning and growing together? Yeah, it's, it's fantastic. You know, the when I look at the the economy right now, and I think the state of where we are in in global trade, you know, there's a lot of economic disruptions that we're all navigating together. And so I think coalitions like this and chambers of commerce have such a role in helping people navigate that I know you're obviously tracking as well, but there's a lot of downward pressure, I think, of the United States and global economy. So we'll start there. But there's a lot of downward pressure with respect to the well, I would say downward pressure, and far worse than downward pressure, actual hostile actions. That is really kind of like pulling back the progress to facilitate diversity and inclusion. It's kind of scary to to be observing from your vantage point. You know, I know you're connected with a lot of international markets as well, but you know, how is this impacting businesses and employees in these markets. Yeah. I

Darrell Schuurman  21:41  
mean, it's having significant impacts here, you know. And again, we represent twist LGBTQI or queer owned businesses, but, you know, we work very closely with with other organizations that are representing, you know, black entrepreneurs, indigenous women owned businesses, you know. And so kind of looking at kind of all equity, the equity deserving communities here, and what we're seeing coming out of we tend to focus on what's coming out of the US, although it's, you know, we're certainly seeing it coming out globally. But you know, if we focus right now on kind of, what we're seeing kind of coming out of the US, with the some of the executive orders, and really, that shift away from EDI or equity, diversity, inclusion, it's having a significant toll on on all equity deserving communities, employees and employers, ultimately, but so certainly at the at the business level, at the, you know, at the entrepreneurial level, you know, it's, it's things like them having to reassess kind of what they're doing and how they operate. So I say at the small business, but also at the corporate level, it's like, how are they doing business? You know, if we're looking at larger corporations, you know, a big piece of what they've done to be engaging and supporting their workforce and their employees is having various ways to engage them. And so that's a largely through things called our business resource groups. And we're starting to see like through some of the executive orders coming out, you know, they're having to scale back what they're doing. We're seeing shifts in language and what we can talk about, what we can't talk about. We have corporate partners now that cannot have pronouns in their email signatures anymore, but they can't be talking about EDI. We have corporate partners. And, you know, through some of our programs that we run, having to reframe their programs, reshape and rethink of how they're they're operating these programs and the sad thing is, is you have seen some corporations kind of completely pull back out of a lot of a lot of work and a lot of activities. But I think what, what's important is that we need to kind of read beyond kind of the headline. And I think that's where a lot of us kind of just, we read the headline and we think, okay, all these corporations, they're not doing anything to support diversity and inclusion in their workplaces anymore. And that's not true, I think, certainly, like I said, some of them are, but many, like I said, are reframing what they're doing. They're they're adapting how it's being positioned, how it's being worded, but they're still, you know, committed to that. Because the reality is, is that having diversity equity inclusion strategies in place is good for business. It's important for for our company. So whether you're a large corporation or you know, a small, small business, having strong diversity equity inclusion practices in place is good for your company at the at the end of the day, that's what's important. And I think these companies know that. So now, sad reality is they have to work within the confines of what's coming out of out of the US government. And so that's where you've seen, I guess that takes us to where we are now in a lot of like, a lot of. Conversation on, how do we continue to do this? It's so important to us within our business, it's good for our business, it's good for our employees. It aligns with our values, but we need to kind of rethink how that's being communicated and delivered.

Andrew Siegwart  25:14  
Well, I would imagine that in those networks, the one positive thing that they may have going for them. Some of these organizations, and some of their their their queer employees, they do have muscle memory from what it was like, what it has been like to face adversity, or to literally have to operate out of a closet, so to speak. And that's what these companies are kind of having to do again. And I would imagine those folks, like the queer communities in these organizations, they understand how to navigate that. So it's probably an opportunity. Probably an opportunity to really lean in even more and say, All right, how do we navigate they've got experience there. So that's probably another glass half full in this kind of scary environment. Now, how about here in Canada? I know that. You know, this is the hard part, right? In Canadian businesses, we look so we look so much to the US to benchmark ourselves. And so I hear a lot of people up here being very worried that it's trickling into Canada. So, you know, here we are. We're in an election. It's, you know, perhaps Fortunately, it's been co opted by tariffs, as opposed to social issues, which I think would have been higher on the agenda. But what's your sense? Is this manifesting in Canada right now. Yes,

Darrell Schuurman  26:21  
it is, and I think it's manifesting in Canada. It's manifesting globally. And I mean, I think we started to see this even before everything that's been going down south of the board over the last couple of months, we've started to see that happening. If you're looking at the provincial level, some of the EDI legislation, and specifically for our communities, the anti trans legislation that came in, looking at New Brunswick, and thankfully, you know, that's been repealed under the new premier. You see, you know what, what's happened in in Saskatchewan, what you're seeing continuing to happen in Alberta, you know, as the US kind of gives stronger weight to to these anti Dei, anti wokeism, you're starting to see it give voice to to certain people here, and to say, like, leveraging that, and say, like, Okay, this is happening. This. This makes sense. So yes, I guess to your to your question, we are seeing it manifest here.

Andrew Siegwart  27:17  
Like, you probably don't have a sense of what the real impact is yet it you've seen changes at the provincial level in terms of how these things are being handled. So, so

Darrell Schuurman  27:27  
we're seeing this, that these those impacts and these changes. But what is also, you're seeing the rallying of the communities in a way that we probably haven't seen in the country since, you know, since the debate around same sex marriage is like, you know, the community the civil society organizations, nonprofit organizations, community leaders, business leaders, rallying behind this. And we need to do more. I mean, again, if you're looking at Alberta, and they're still kind of forging ahead with a lot of their anti trends, we need to continue to do more, because it is important for us. And again, if I we as a business organization, we always take it back to the business side, and it's bad for business, like these legislations, is bad for for business, for any industry, for any sector. It is not good for us and so, and I think that's where, you know, I always try to find a little bit of silver lining in everything, and that's where, you know, it's encouraging to see the rallying that comes up and start to combat these anti di you're seeing that obviously, coming out of, you know, the whole tariffs and the 51st state thing, you know, it's like that Team Canada, which you haven't seen

Andrew Siegwart  28:39  
In a very long time. You know, it's very encouraging, isn't it? It

Darrell Schuurman  28:43  
is encouraging. And so it's important that we don't become complacent. Obviously, it's so easy for it to trickle in and to continue to grow, like these anti inclusion sentiments, it's so easy for it to start to on a global scale, kind of trickle out, and so that's why I think we just need to continue to remain so diligent and civil society and individuals and corporations need to continue to work together to fight

Andrew Siegwart  29:13  
that. It's really at the end of the day, it's a leadership moment for many, right? So are we able to stand for our values in the face of adversity or not. And I think what we're seeing across Canada at so many levels of government, federally, provincially, Alberta, Ontario, so many of our leaders are feeling more confident to stand up for ourselves. So I think we can leverage that you Steve, from your perspective, Daryl, what advice would you give a leader who is feeling right now that they're they're bat, they're battling the need to live by their values, but they're facing that political pressure, and they're nervous, and I think that we can all empathize with what that must feel like. But you have any advice for them on what they should do? To how they could muster the courage to stay true to what they believe at this point in time. Yeah, it's not

Darrell Schuurman  30:06  
easy. Like, I won't lie, it's not easy. I think it's one, being true to yourself and knowing just what is, what's important and what's right, and sticking to that. And the second piece is, is also knowing what's good for get bringing it all back to business and the economy, what's good for the economy. And I think those are the two sides that I guess I kind of continue to work with. I think ever since we started the chamber 20 plus years ago, it has always been championing around the vision of inclusion and the importance of economic inclusion, and the power that that can have on driving social change and driving, you know, broader social change. One of the things we as an organization have done over the last 12 months is revisited our values. It wasn't just a board exercise. We you know, we talked about at the board, but we really engaged our staff to to understand, you know, what is important to you for this organization to be standing for, and what do you think the values of CJ LCC should be? And what that does is it weaves in like their personal values as well, because they're here. They're working with us for a reason, right? They're engaged with us. We're nonprofit. Certainly, they could probably be doing a little bit better in the for profit sector, but they believe in us for a reason, so we wanted to make sure that we we got their personal values that we're feeding into into our corporate values. And I'm so proud of where we are now in terms of our corporate values and that we live and breathe them every day. So we're talking about community that is one of our values, and it's around, what are we doing to make sure that we are listening and supporting and focused and centered around the community? We're talking about collaboration. And so collaboration, what are we doing within our own kind of ecosystem, but the broader ecosystem, and how are we working together to advance, you know, the collective good so working across different industries, across different sectors, you know, we're talking about integrity, about being true to ourselves, right? Again, it's like, what are we doing? Can we look back and say, Yes, I am proud of what we've done, and can we be transparent in everything that we do. And I think that the last one, which I think is not an easy thing to do, and it is bravery and boldness more than ever, as we've been talking about, you know, the last few minutes. Here, it's we need to be brave. We can't be afraid to just sit back and just say, okay, that's how it's going to be. We need to be able to challenge the status quo. We need to continue to drive we need to be advocating for what we believe in. And that requires, sometimes bold movements. One of the things that, if I bring it back to kind of current situation, and, you know, terrorists, one of the things that we've done is we do over the you know, over the last years, we've done a lot within the US market space, but we've made conscious decisions in terms of how we're how we're working with the US, and what we're doing at the US and bold measures that are important for us as an organization and us for our employees.

Andrew Siegwart  33:17  
You said two things that really stand out to me is, one is making sure you're staying true to the values of your team, and you're engaging your team, and also that economic development piece is all about your customers. So when you're trying to decide whether you're getting pressure from a government official or or trying to do what you know is right, you just got to look to your customers and what your customers want of you, right? And that's what you're saying, which I think is really sage advice. And I love that you're talking about re examining values. Too many times I see these value statements. They just, you know, they're on the wall somewhere. But when you really embed that in your corporate culture, that keeps you as a leader, that keeps you accountable, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of tariffs, and I think this is great, because not only are you obviously, you're a champion for all of these issues we've been talking about, but you are laying down some really interesting programs that again, here's another example, Daryl, where you have been ahead of the curve for when we've needed it most. So you have developed a supplier diversity program. And I'm probably not using the right title. But I wonder if you can just describe what that is and what it's all about,

Darrell Schuurman  34:25  
and you're right, the supplier diversity program, yeah, this is something we launched in in 2014 but it's not new to been

Andrew Siegwart  34:33  
that long. It's been 10 years. Wow,

Darrell Schuurman  34:35  
I know. But the reality is this is, this is not new in terms of kind of looking at the broader business. And so what supplier diversity is, it's really looking at, how do we help to diversify corporate and public supply chain? We know that historically, equity deserving groups are underrepresented in corporate and public supply chain. And so when I. Saying equity deserving groups. I'm talking racialized, indigenous women, LGBT community and peoples with disabilities. And so we know that less than 10% of corporate public procurement actually goes to those businesses, those entrepreneurs. And so it's really looking the goal of supply diversity is, how do we change that? How do we make sure that these groups, these entrepreneurs, these businesses, have equal access to to compete and to participate? This is an initiative, and I say it's an initiative, it's a strategy. It's not an initiative. It's a strategy that's really it started in the US over, you know, 5060, years ago, coming out of the civil rights movement, when the federal government was looking to see, how do we help to economically empower our black communities and through entrepreneurship and through business, that was that the avenue that really focused on, because the more that we can support our our diverse owned businesses, the more that we can help those broader communities, to help them uplift into, again, I keep using economically empower, but that is kind of the key thing. And what it's doing is it's generating employment, it's generating taxation. That's money going back into those local communities. And so it's which is going into health care, into schools, and it's, again, it's, it's creating that important change and helping to uplift these, these community members, so leveraging business to drive that kind of, that social change, if you will. So yeah, so we, we've been doing supplier diversity for the last 10 years, and it's really around working to find opportunities for our businesses, for for queer owned businesses to do business with larger corporations, governments, and while just broadly, you know, connecting with each other

Andrew Siegwart  36:51  
as well with the participants in this program, I would, I would guess that a lot of them are really local, domestic businesses. I mean, some of them may be more international, or they might have expanded into different markets, but my hunch is that it's a lot of homegrown Canadian business and talent and supply producers. So

Darrell Schuurman  37:12  
first of all, CJL, CC, you know, we represent over 100,000 queer owned businesses, and not all of those are certified with us, as as you know, being owned, but you know, certainly we know that the Canadian landscape has over 100,000 Coronavirus businesses representing over $22 billion in economic activity a year. So it's a significant, it's a significant, you know, business community, and one that we need to continue to support, you know. So you're right. So many of our businesses are smaller. They tend to be a little bit younger in terms of a number of years in operation, and they face significant barriers as well. You know, when you look at things that are so critical for businesses to succeed, which is access to capital, access to mentorship, those businesses and equity deserving groups, broadly and certainly within our community, these barriers are significant, and so that's part of the work that we're doing, and part of the work that supplier diversity is doing is, how do we help to eliminate some of those barriers? So building those connections, building that access, providing the capacity, building providing that mentorship, which is so key, is, as we all know, with the with the ultimate goal of helping them to to grow and succeed, and part of that, then is accessing new markets. So you're right, that many kind of focus on the domestic market, but there's so many opportunities for them to to export and to to look at global trade. Part of one of our programs that we do is help to get these businesses ready to start to export. So we've led trade missions around the world, and we start with like an incubator for a global incubator program to get them to understand kind of the steps to global trade and start to build them up, and then then they can participate in our trade missions around the world.

Andrew Siegwart  39:02  
Wow. What kind of places have you done these missions? So

Darrell Schuurman  39:07  
a lot has been through to the US, which, you know, we're pivoting. This year, we will not be doing a trade mission to the US, but we've done Colombia, Brazil, we've done the EU, we've done UK. Wow, this year, we have one coming up to France, although I'm not sure if that's formally been announced yet. So this is like

Andrew Siegwart  39:27  
you heard it here. First everyone

Darrell Schuurman  39:30  
will be leading we'll be leading one to France and one to to Mexico as well this year. So what I'm really excited about, for the first time, we're leading a Canadian domestic trade mission and, and I think it goes back to a little bit of your your comment, Andrew, we're very focused on, how do we how do we help these businesses go outside of our borders, but there's so much opportunity within Canada. And how do we make sure that our you know, operator. Our businesses in Ontario have access to what's going on in BC. So we're going to be leading our first trade mission this summer, and it's really exciting. And I think this aligns with, again, that sentiment of like Team Canada by Canada, by domestic and where we've really been pushing. And so glad to see you know that the federal government level and the provincial levels, you know that focus around re reducing, removing kind of those domestic trade barriers, those provincial trade barriers, which are so are can be devastating and significant for many entrepreneurs so

Andrew Siegwart  40:38  
well, I think what you're describing is, is the model that federal and provincial governments are looking for. And no doubt other sectors are doing something similar. But I think this is a this is really an opportunity to highlight such a best practice. And I love this trade mission of domestic businesses into BC. And I think the the job of organizations like tayo and tyac and others, is where we need to help, is to help align with you so we can push that interprovincial trade policy work and enable that, like, seize this opportunity that we have. And also, it's not all that bad everyone. Like, there's a lot of challenges, but there's a lot of great work happening to be proactive. So thank you for sharing all that. I will make sure in the show notes that we have links to some of those programs for our listeners to look at it and hopefully get engaged. And let's see if we can help grow participation in some of these initiatives. They're fantastic. There may be a number of our listeners who have yet to start thinking about marketing to queer travelers, whether domestically or from markets all around the world. Is there an opportunity right now concerning policy changes in the US or other international markets that make Canada a better welcoming destination for queer travelers?

Darrell Schuurman  41:53  
Yeah, I think certainly there is. We know that one of the biggest considerations for members of the queer community that are looking to travel and choosing destination is that is around the level of safety, and so certainly safety from a physical side, but also just in terms of that sense of being welcomed and invited. And we've seen this over the years, you know, and the LGBT travelers specifically choosing to go or not to go to destinations that they know just don't have inclusive policies or practices, or there has been certain activities. And so I think if you look at the US and some of the significant shift as as we talked about around the the anti dei and specifically for our trans, non binary community members, that uncertainty around passports and not accepting, or the uncertainty if they'll accept ex gender markers, or, you know, the requirement to have the Gender same gender as as you're born, on your passport and your documentation. I mean, that is that's scary for, obviously, for so many reasons, for so many of the community members. And so I think the queer traveler is looking for place that they know, that they can they can go, that they can be safe, that they they are going to a place that truly is welcoming and inviting of them. And so I think that this is where Canada has a significant opportunity. We have always been seen as a safe travel destination on kind of all fronts, and I think specifically within the queer community, when you look in terms of our advancements around queer rights. And you know, we talked about the fact that we've had same sex marriage now for over 20 years. Is important, and we continue to advance and and so, yes, we we have challenges, as we've talked about, you know, certainly at the provincial level, but I think overall, you know, we're seen as that destination which can be, can offer what the traveler is looking for. So, you know, I start with the safety, because that's such an important piece. But then then you start to look at what the assets that we have, and so we are a world class destination in terms of we have everything that career travelers looking for. I'd say now is the time to really put some to really start to focus on on this market and see how can we start tapping into this market, and that's where we run a program called Rainbow registered. And I know that Tayo is has been part of that. Yes, we have which, congratulations on getting accredited.

Andrew Siegwart  44:37  
Thank you. We're very proud of it.

Darrell Schuurman  44:38  
Ultimately, what this this program is doing is it is really helping these businesses demonstrate their authenticity in terms of making sure that they truly have those inclusive policies and practices in place that the queer visitor, that the 2s LGBTQI visitor, is looking for and expecting. And so that's on the on the the visit. Their side, but the impact that it has within the organization, within the business, is profound, and that is something that you know we we've been running this program for the last five years or so, and it was always around, like when we started. It was around, how are we increasing tourism receipts for our businesses, for our tourism industry, but we quickly realized the impact that it was having on businesses employees and their ability to retain and to attract employees, which we all know labor market is a huge issue for the industry people as we know they want to work in a place that aligns with their values. We're bringing it back down to that those values which are so important for today's employer employees. And so having a company that has demonstrated, and so not just like again, not just like putting a sticker and saying that they have it, that they've actually demonstrated that they've gone through a rigorous process and a program that has validated the fact that, yes, this is a company that has truly embedded diversity, equity, inclusion, for the career community within their within their organization, and that's, I think that's profound. And, you know, I've heard from so many people, so many businesses, that the benefit that's that's come from going through this process. And so, yes, back to your original question. Absolutely, this is a market worth looking at. You know, globally, it's, it's a over 300 or $300 billion market expected to grow over to like, 600 billion globally, we know the North American market alone is worth 70 billion annually. Canadian market $12 billion so these are big markets that we need to be we need to be looking at. We need to be having those conversations around, how do we, how do we kind of engage this, this customer, but how do we do it in that authentic way, and in that in that way that is truly supporting that the broader community.

Andrew Siegwart  47:06  
So a big opportunity, I had $300 billion of a global market value. So that is 10 times the the total receipts, about 10 times the total receipts of the Ontario visitor economy. So imagine just finding a slice of that from all of the global markets, what kind of an impact that would be? Wow, that's something. It's another solution and an opportunity. And I also think it's interesting. Again, we're doing a lot of comparisons to the current situation, but what the queer traveler is looking for is safety, feeling welcomed. And right now we're hearing from the American market, their biggest travel consideration is feeling safe and feeling welcome. So one of the things we've been talking a lot about at Taio right now, as we've been saying, you know, let's be elbows up on policy. We know we have to fight to protect our country, but we need to always be arms open and we need to be welcoming tourism. We are, we are hospitality professionals, which means we are, we are natural diplomats to the world, and that can be leveraged right now. And so I think we are really uniquely positioned to, if we, if we lean into all of these programs, there's a lot that we can achieve to just grow brand Canada, and I think it's very exciting. And thank you. Thank you for bringing so much to the table to allow operators to truly do that and to do it in authentic way.

Darrell Schuurman  48:25  
Yeah, and I appreciate your comments there, because I think that we've been talking about, I've been talking about kind of that inclusivity from the queer lens, but it's across all just being a broadly and inclusive industry and province, and that means making sure that we are welcoming of our American colleagues and travelers. And I think you were, I think you were in the media this week or last week and really talking about that, but it is so important. I was out in Halifax earlier this week, and that is one of the concerns that they've been talking about is, how do we make sure that, you know, as as they're actively trying to engage and attract the US market, still, how do they make sure that those visitors are going to get a welcome experience? And I think it's it's for for the broader community, for the broader Ontario community, to understand that this is this is important for everybody. This is important industry for for the province. It's an important economic driver, employer, and so we need to make sure that, you know, when we're talking inclusivity, we're not just talking queer inclusivity or for indigenous or black and we're talking everybody and I know that we are that, but I think it's sometimes, it's it's important to just highlight because we saw a little bit at this, at the start of this 51st state rhetoric, and, you know, kind of the booing of the US anthem. And I think that that that did a little bit of disservice to us as a country, and that's not who we are. And I know people. People are frustrated, people are angry. But we need to remember that the majority of Americans that are going to come up and visit, they're not going to be wearing mega hats right there. They want to. They're coming here because of who we are. That's right,

Andrew Siegwart  50:15  
yeah, and they and they are attracted to us for those very reasons. Absolutely, well said. And I think it's going to be really interesting to track. And I think, you know, we are always tested. And these are opportunities, these kinds of global situations, they test our mettle. And I think we're all doing pretty well so far, but we just got to keep working together on it. I think we sort of established this, that your, your passion for travel goes beyond work. Clearly, you're a world traveler. You you started at a very young age being exposed to the benefits of travel. I'm wondering if you could share with us, and I know it's hard to choose any one location, because you don't want to seem biased or preferential, but is there one, one travel experience that you've had that really just moved you or gave you a wow factor that you could maybe share with our listeners, and why it was such a it had such an impact on you.

Darrell Schuurman  51:06  
So I will not say in Ontario destination, for fear of them, like isolating one. So I know that's good call. Good call. Obviously, I love traveling within the province, but I think if looking outside the Ontario market, one recently, just this past fall, actually, we, we did an international trip to Japan, which was so special, and I had been there when I was a lot younger, and it's been so it's been at least 20 years since, 30 years, maybe since I've been there. But what struck me various levels, you know, first of all, just in terms of how, how structured and organized. I'm a little like that and so like, when I see, like, you know, you know, a culture that is just rooted in, like, efficiency and organization, the power of infrastructure was, was just awesome. And I say that because it is so critical to make sure, you know, as as we're trying to grow our economies and try to drive economic growth here, you know, we need to look to find, how are we improving efficiencies and infrastructure, and especially for the tourism industry, it's so important. And I I look at, you know, what they've accomplished in in Japan, across, you know, I was in Tokyo and Osaka and Kyoto, and it was so impressive of how that works, and it's also seamless,

Andrew Siegwart  52:32  
especially the transportation Right. Like to be able to get on the rail, it's

Darrell Schuurman  52:36  
and it was always on time to the minute. Not always the case here in Ontario. And then the food, you know, the culture, just, you know, amazing, which are, again, great assets that we have. But, you know, it was just something just I loved. But it's the people like, I think it's the people are what make for me the experience. It was a culture I didn't know like, I know that they tend to be more conservative, but it was still a very welcoming as a queer traveler. You know? It was a very welcoming destination that embraced me for who I am, and it reminded me of that how strong we here in Ontario are in so many of these elements. It was a great experience. But, you know, I loved coming home to Prince Edward County, which I call home. So a little shout out to Prince Edward County. But yeah,

Andrew Siegwart  53:33  
Prince Edward County, absolutely. You know, Theo and I were in Japan a few years ago, one of my aha moments from that trip, which I loved. We were. We went to the the bamboo forest, which was, I think that's in Kyoto, struggling with the language. Like Theo speaks four languages, and I speak well one in a little bit of French when I try my best. But we were struggling with the language because it's so different. And we got in a taxi back, and there was this man had to be in his mid to late 80s, and he turns around with his cell phone, and he was using Google Translate effortlessly with us, right? And we were so we were like, Oh my gosh, of course. Why wouldn't we using this the whole time? There's this man, like, more than twice our age, who was showing us, but the technology driven culture, right? And that that hospitality was really quite something. So yeah, it's a great place. It is. So I want to thank you so much for spending time with us today and for sharing, not only your personal story. I love I love sharing all of our the personal stories of our interviewees, because part of what we're trying to do with this podcast is talk about careers in tourism and highlight the very interesting pathways that we can all take. So I know you don't always love to talk about yourself, but these are great stories to share for you know, future leaders. And you know, I just want to say we at tayo, we've been so grateful to work with the CG, LCC, such a great partnership. The things that you've been working on. Are so ahead of the curve, so bringing programs to market at the time we need it most, and that sense of innovation is really inspiring, and it's been really great for tayo to partner with you, and we look forward to more partnerships and just thanks for sharing your insights with us and our listeners, I think your your unique blend of wanting to to support your community, but being rooted in the entrepreneurial culture is exactly the skill set that is going to take us to the next level. So thank you for that, and please say hi to your family. For me, wish them well, and hopefully we'll all get to see each other sometime in the future, soon. Always

Darrell Schuurman  55:39  
a pleasure to chat with you, Andrew, I'm going to get you out here to Prince Edward County, and we're going to experience some of the amazing wineries this summer. Deal,

Andrew Siegwart  55:49  
deal, count on it done. Okay?

Darrell Schuurman  55:51  
Thank you. Great seeing you. Thank you so much.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  55:54  
Thanks for listening to forward motion. This show is created by the tourism industry association of Ontario, and is recognized by government as the voice of tourism and produced by everyone at the sound off media company.