Advocating for School Counselors: Insights from CSCA Chair Katie Brown

Matt Cundill  0:01  
This is from plains to peaks counselors speak a podcast from the Colorado School Counselor Association.

Anna Gisetti  0:09  
I'm your host, Anna gazzetti, middle school counselor extraordinaire. I might have given myself that title and current assistant Chair of the Colorado School Counselor Association. The purpose of from plains to peaks is to provide a space for all things school counselor, our hope is to make connections with folks around our state and beyond, provide some education, provoke some thought, engage in meaningful conversations from our point of view, and to bring some levity to our ever challenging yet very rewarding work in education. I am so excited about the guest on today's show. It has been such an honor and a pleasure getting to know this person through CSCA, and I have zero doubts that this is going to be so much fun. Award winning, experienced, hilarious, generous, passionate, strap in your seat belts, folks, because today we are chatting with the amazing Katie Brown, Hi Katie,

Katie Brown  1:06  
Hi Anna. Thank you so much for that introduction. Yeah,

Anna Gisetti  1:10  
well deserved. And like, couldn't have, I couldn't have written it any better. Like, I mean, I probably could, because there are, like, probably, like, 1000 more amazing positive adjectives to describe you. Are you reading anything fun at the moment, or is it like work related? Well,

Katie Brown  1:26  
I'm listening to Malcolm Gladwell in the revenge of the tipping point. I'm almost done with that, and I am reading Colleen Hoover, which I am very late to the game on, but it's just a little something fun for over break. As soon as anything gets a little too stressful, though I'm ready to to check out of it and try something.

Anna Gisetti  1:49  
My mom the other day was like, Do you want any books like on your wish list for the holiday nice? I was like, Yes, but No, because I have a stack about six that I like working through all at the same time. I can absolutely relate to that. Isn't that the way which Colleen Hoover,

Katie Brown  2:07  
so I started with Verity. I just I read it ends with us in about three days. And so I think the next one is, it begins with us. I can't remember, but I just started that one. So

Anna Gisetti  2:20  
Katie Brown, the human to begin with. Would you share a little bit with us about yourself? Like, who are you? Where are you from? What do you do? How did you get into education, school counseling, specifically.

Katie Brown  2:35  
Well, as you have said, and I think it's so funny that everybody always says my name together. Katie Brown, I am very rarely just Katie, because it just fits so well together. I'm from Pueblo, Colorado, and that is a huge point of pride for me. I often times fancy myself as the ambassador, because there's so many beautiful things here, so much to love and often overlooked. So I also make it a challenge to find the things that I love about other people's communities, because as an under appreciated community, I can definitely I get frustrated with that. So very proud Puebloan. I'm a school counselor at Prairie Winds elementary This is my 10th year in school counseling. I thought very early that I wanted to work in elementary education, specifically, like my grandmother did. My mom was a teacher, but she was at the high school level. So after I taught Italian second graders at Sunset Park, which is the first school I ended up working at, I went to my mom and I said, I think I want to go into education. And she, in her 30th year of education, said, Please don't and so I went a totally different direction, and I got an undergraduate, undergraduate degree in economics and finance, then eventually got a job with the Girl Scouts. I was doing character education lessons. It was called Girl Scouting in the school day, and I realized I loved teaching that specifically. So that really led me to go work in a middle school in the neighborhood where I grew up, freed middle school that closed and has reopened now, but I moved into a community advocate role at freed, the counselor, at the time, said that she thought that I would be a good fit, which I always remember. I always remind myself of this, because I feel like when we come across these people that would make amazing counselors, we have to absolutely tell them that they would, because it just totally changed the rest of my life. So education was absolutely where I was supposed to be. However, it was a long path to getting there. I

Anna Gisetti  4:30  
love bringing the human part into the stories, especially like for this podcast. You know, we are here for school counselors by school counselors. And I never want to dismiss that human component. And so folks, you might hear life happening in the background as we go on this journey, hearing about our leaders and the different issues around our state. And I just don't want to ignore the fact that, like, yeah, when you're talking with us or listening with us. You might hear some life happening in the background. So how long and in what roles have you been a part of the Colorado School Counseling Association

Katie Brown  5:09  
I joined in 2018 as a region representative, or, of course, our region that is no more now. That was my my pathway to CSCA. After a couple of years of that, I decided during COVID that I was going to run for president. Then, of course, during the year I was president, we decided to completely revamp our model, and we moved to the board of directors, and so I became the Chair for a second year. I always say the lady's so nice. She did the job twice, but also it was a whole lot of fun and a great time to be leading the organization with through such huge changes. And since then, I'm still, of course, a director, but I am now the co chair of the advocacy committee. What

Anna Gisetti  5:55  
led you to being interested in or wanting to get involved on or with the association that,

Katie Brown  6:04  
again, was the personal ask a person who said, I think you would be really good for this, figuring out what the commitment was, and then getting into the room, I feel like you find pretty quickly, like, oh my gosh, these are people that are into the exact same things I am, and we have So much to talk about, and I go back with new ideas, and just energized to be able to do the

Anna Gisetti  6:28  
work we've talked about that a little bit with Matthew and Jen, just about like how people can get involved in the board and why they need to. And this is a common theme that keeps popping up is that connection, connection with others who think similarly, and not that we need to surround ourselves with people who think similarly. But there are also the challenges of different viewpoints and different viewpoints from around the state and and so it's like one you get me because you're doing the work, but we all have our different ways of of doing what what it is that we do, as you have mentioned, your path with CSCA has led you in many directions now being on the advocacy committee, share with us, like how you got involved with the advocacy, or just with advocacy in general, and what this committee in particular does, I

Katie Brown  7:21  
feel like it's a mix of both qualities within a person, but also skills that you build over time, advocacy just generally. So like the qualities being commitment to making positive change, if you have this strong sense of justice, then you want to see that there are people who are more vulnerable, people who need a seat at the table. They get that seat at the table or that you're echoing the voices of especially students in our situation. So I feel like I had those qualities very early on, but the skills they were developed over time, and I worked as a political organizer before I went into education, I also worked as a labor organizer. I worked in community organizing, and then, of course, I became a community advocate with the school district. And when I found my way into school counseling and realized that that was one of the pillars of everything that we do, I felt like I had really found my home so advocacy was really who I was before I became a school counselor. It just has provided an opportunity for me to reach the next level with advocacy and really start to think about it at multiple levels and really like got involved with the advocacy committee with CSEA, because I attended those meetings that I heard our lobbyist talking about a wide range of things that have big impacts in our districts down here in the southern part of the state. And I always like to say, if you don't have a seat at the table, then you end up on the menu. So sitting at those tables, figuring out how to navigate being invited to those tables, or just like bringing your own chair if you weren't actually invited. Those are all things that I developed over time, for sure, but it's all really been rooted in bringing resources to the community that I really love.

Anna Gisetti  9:17  
I think that is so special, and I love what you have to say, like, if there isn't a C, bring your own chair. And in our field, we've kind of navigated the waters of in education. We've had to do a lot of educating about what we do, because otherwise we do end up on the chopping block. And if people don't understand what we do and our value in the school system, then the leaders are going to see the value in putting money into it. And so it's just the business of education. It's just how it goes. And so there's definitely been a need one for us to advocate within our own buildings. And then, of course, we have an advocacy committee at the state level with this association. And you mentioned that we have. Of a legislative liaison. So what kind of work is the committee working on right now, or I would say, even within the past couple years, that have impacted either the association or school counselors across the state? Well, in

Katie Brown  10:13  
Colorado, we have a lot of challenges around funding, and so when it comes to that, things are always very tight. So we're very protective of things like the counselor core grants, and in 2021 we helped, with the help of our lobbyists, secure 2 million additional dollars, bringing like the total is 12 million at this point, which goes to help districts that are prioritized based on need all across our state. So many people have experiences now with counselor core, and so that has been a huge part of our work. But additionally, there are bills that come up all the time related to juvenile justice, career and post workforce readiness. Whenever these bills come up in the beginning, when I started, I feel like we were very much reacting to what was happening. And now that we've done this work over the last many years, there are legislators that will reach out directly to us and say, I want to find out what the school counselors think about this, because we do have a view of our student population, of our school building, the culture within the building. We have the ability to see these things and really carry those voices, carry those needs forward. Right now, you kind of mentioned this. So like advocacy at the individual student level, advocacy at the building level, a huge part of the work that I have kind of undertaken since becoming the co chair is expanding everybody's idea of what advocacy, what or is. Because, you know, we used to call the our committee government relations, which is very important, but we know that advocacy is such a huge part of the school counselors role, and so we want to expand that to include the conversations that you have at dinner. Because if you run into your state rep and he's picking up bingo burger, this actually happened. This is a very specific scenario, and you have something that you are ready to talk about, you have a solid three minutes to give a pitch to your state representative, who's not going anywhere. He's waiting in line right next to you. So recognizing those opportunities, recognizing those student level opportunities. For example, I had a student who was in the foster care system and wasn't able to go to the middle school that she wanted to go to, really working with a family to insist that she was entitled to a bid best interest determination. There it is. She was entitled to a best interest determination meeting that would allow her to go to that middle school so she could stay with her friends. So those student level advocacy opportunities, the opportunities you have within your community to make a difference, advocating for bus passes for kids over the summer so they can get where they want to go, all the way up to our ability to make changes within the legislature, or if the Board of Education is discussing rules changes or things like that, that we can actually have some input into that. So specifically related to those larger goals, we've started a conversation around school counselor core grant timelines and processes. We're working with our lobbyists on that. We're also working to get in front of the Colorado Association of School executives or case. So we're hoping to have that happen within the next month or two, really, to address what you were talking about with helping people understand what the role could look like, helping administrators understand that school counselors who are implementing the ask a national model, are looking, not just looking. We are doing intentional data reviews. We are setting student outcome goals and that we are there to show measurable results as far as academic achievement, attendance and discipline, working to get in front of case. Right now, there's a meeting coming up. A small group is going to be meeting to discuss some FAFSA completion requirements that could be changing in the very near future, which is very near and dear to our high school counselors hearts, of course, and we're working with our lobbyists and trying to set up a meeting with Rocky Mountain equity alliance to be able to better advocate for LGBTQ students, especially now. Now, as there are higher level topics and really like, you know, supporting counselors in buildings in districts, we're looking towards building a library of resources so that people can look at what a Board of Education presentation might look like, or, you know, just so they have some things to reference. Of course, everything. All of our districts are so very diverse, people might be looking for something different, but if you have something to start with, it's always very helpful.

Anna Gisetti  14:58  
100% and I. Love to hear about this library of resources, because we have heard frequently from different spaces. You know, if you're in a bigger district, you might have a person who oversees counseling at the district level. If you're in a medium sized district, you can go to your colleagues. Yet, we have a lot of folks who are out there in spaces across our state, who are by themselves or isolated, or it's 5060, miles to the next counselor. We don't have a library of resources. We're making things up as we go along. So I just love, love, love the idea of providing access to everybody, and that kind of plays into my question you mentioned, like, the situation where you were standing in line, maybe next to the Senator. So it kind of sounds like it would behoove us to maybe have our elevator speech prepped. Like, what are some things that that would be good to know, where to be able to say in those moments about who we are, what we do. In

Katie Brown  16:02  
that moment, when I ran into it was Representative Matt Martinez, who is a hero. What I wanted to say to him was, thank you so much for your work on behalf of school counselors. You know, I mentioned he had run a bill recently, and you don't have to know all of these things when you go and talk to people. So don't feel intimidated, because there are people just like you. And if you're lucky enough, you knew some of them in high school, so he knew what they were, you know, real people. He had run a bill related to reducing recidivism, which is something that was very is very important to him. And so I was talking to him about that, and thanking him for his work related to that, I like to set up a message have presented on this at conference a couple of different times. But what other people, other very smart people, have called a messaging triangle. So I am, I'm Katie Brown. I'm the school counselor at Prairie Winds Elementary. I believe, I believe all students should have access to a school counselor. Will you? So this is a really important part. When you're advocating to somebody and you only have a few minutes, you want to give them something actionable that they can do. Will you support us in writing a counselor core grant so that we can hire additional counselors, bringing down our student to counselor ratio? Now, that would be a message to deliver, you know, in very specific context, but I'm very proud of the work that we've done in my district, public County, district 70, in the last two years, we've written multiple school health professionals grants, multiple counselor core grants, and we actually reduced our elementary school counselor to student ratio from one to 900 and we're about one to 500 right now. So I'm really, really happy with that growth, but that came from those diligent conversations about who I am, what I believe, and asking people for actionable things. And if the actionable thing is not workable, then finding something but that is workable that meets meets students needs, and helps us reduce those ratios, I think that that's a good thing to go with. And usually the thing that you you need to talk to them about is probably at the top of your mind. Anyway, you're you're thinking about it, you're worried about it. There's so many opportunities I my head just starts to spin when I start to think about all the things. So

Matt Cundill  18:20  
from planes to peaks, counselors speak continues.

Anna Gisetti  18:25  
I had a conversation with someone the other day. They were asking about school counseling and what we do. And I'm like, we do so much. Like, help me narrow that down. Like, what do you want to know specifically? And I'm like, I I need, like, a prompt to let you know. Like, is it academics, social, emotional. You want to know about mental health status. So I'm just thinking like, if I don't have mentors, or if I am not connected with or I don't have a district person, or I'm not connected with other people, can I access the advocacy committee to get some support, just for like, some sentence starters or conversation starters, or just to to bounce off some ideas, like, I'm going to a PTA meeting later, or those of you who are lucky enough to have a, like, school counselor Advisory Council, which I don't, I'm, yeah, I put myself out there. We don't yet growth mindset yet my school, but we will, but yeah, like, is there a way to connect with you to get some just support or assistance around

Katie Brown  19:27  
that? I would love that that's something else where we've discussed building out as well. Kind of like our ethical committee has the ability to contact them about questions that come up. I love to problem solve. It's always hard to figure out where to start when we're talking about advocacy, because we always need to answer the critical question, who makes that decision? Who should we actually be talking to? So I am more than happy to problem solve with people. I had a woman contact me. She was in one of the mountain schools recently. I. Because they were their school counselors were working towards becoming dually licensed as LPCs as well. So I'm happy to work through, you know, any advocacy questions that come up. And I will also say, though it's always going to require bringing more people along too, building your coalition and making sure that you have people you're not just doing it alone, but yeah, my email address is available on our CSEA website. Katie dot Brown at coloradoschool counselor.org and I'd be happy to problem solve any advocacy issues that come up and

Anna Gisetti  20:31  
you're so right about, like, bringing other people along, you know? Because I know there are some sayings out there, like it only takes one to create change, but boy, it can be a lot better when you have some other like minded people or support behind you in your community that value what you value, and think that that's important too.

Katie Brown  20:53  
I tend to more lean towards you've probably seen this, this picture of like the one little fish swimming, but then all the fish swimming together, and it says, organize. You gotta organize. You gotta get with other other people, because sometimes also, like the people in power that you're advocating to the people who make those decisions, they might be more moved by somebody else's message. And so I can deliver my message. But if there are several other people who have a way of explaining it from their point of view, from their experience, that is incredibly valuable.

Anna Gisetti  21:27  
And I think that's so so great that you said that, because there are often times where, like, you know you as an individual, or I'll use myself as an example if I as an individual am trying to spread a message, and it's not landing where I would like it to land. It's not necessarily me or the message, but it could be. And so finding another person who could say essentially the same thing in a different way, or the same way, whatever might fall better on those ears. And so I think it's just knowing your audience, knowing what your message is, being solid in that, bringing the passion, bringing the data, the why, because if you're going to talk to people in power, they want to know the numbers and the money behind it, and yeah, just also like, what's the impact? What's the return on investment, if we're going to be supporting you, or if we're going to even consider whatever initiative

Katie Brown  22:20  
I struggled for a long time to figure out because, you know, advocacy sometimes can move so slow, like, what is a good measure of success when we're talking about advocacy? And I decided that when I have heard my message delivered back to me as if I wasn't the person who originally said it, then I feel pretty successful as soon as I hear our superintendent now say, we want to work towards those ask a recommended school counselor to student ratios. I'm like, we made it. School counselors were really I mean, they had eliminated the positions in so many of our schools. So it does. It feels like a huge win.

Anna Gisetti  23:07  
And that is so great. And I think you're so right that sometimes it's a glacier. We was talking the other day, maybe on another episode about education, it's a glacier. And sometimes your benchmark is, we planted the seed, then it's the message got back to me, and they, you know, like that. People are starting to talk about it, and it's really picked up some speed. So yeah, and don't be discouraged or disappointed if, like, get out there and plant the seed like we do with our students. We don't always know where they're going to end up, but we're, like, planting seeds and just hoping that they'll grow into these beautiful humans contributing to society in whatever shape or form, but sometimes which like planting seed is good. That's not to be minimized

Katie Brown  23:51  
well, and I appreciate what you said there too is like sometimes you don't get the intended outcome. I advocated for many years in my previous district for them to implement an evidence based, age appropriate maturation presentation, like delivered by our health department. And it never did happen. There are often times when you're not successful. It's important to not get discouraged. I also think, though, that when you hit so many walls in one place, and sometimes you might might decide it's time to find a different place.

Anna Gisetti  24:33  
And I think that's really valuable just to know again, in knowing your audience, in knowing the climate in which you are serving, in which you are carrying out your role. Failure is not failure, is failure, but it like they're learning moments and learning opportunities, like you're right. Maybe this isn't the time or the space for this message or for this this isn't the climate to carry this. Out, and then maybe you do go to another place and that is ripe for the fruits, right? And it's a good space that is ready to receive the message and to deliver the deliverables

Katie Brown  25:12  
overall, all of this in pursuit of meeting students needs. If

Anna Gisetti  25:19  
a Colorado School counselor is interested in getting involved in advocacy on the state level with the advocacy committee through the association. How would they do so? Well,

Katie Brown  25:31  
we've established some different tiers of membership for our advocacy committee, because we realize not everybody is interested in the every other Tuesday meeting where we do a deep dive into the governor's budget. That's not for everybody, so if that is for you, fantastic, welcome, and you will definitely find your people in this meeting. But there's also the ability for some people to just read the legislation as it's being introduced, to be able to give feedback on it. There's also an option for people to be able to testify about things that they feel passionate about. A lot of times, when things come up within the legislature, we have very little lead time to be able to find the right person to be able to speak on an issue we presented at conference our lobbyist, he got up and spoke and went through the bills that were passed in the last legislative session, upcoming things that they would see on their ballot, things like that. And we had 18 more people sign up for our advocacy committee, which has really diversified our experiences and really range to be able to advocate and speak with so much passion and knowledge about these different subjects, all of that. If you go to our CSCA website under Resources, you will find information about our advocacy committee, including a Google form where you can sign up if you would like to participate at any one of those levels, because we, like I said, need that diversity of experiences. We need the diversity of location. Colorado is a wildly diverse state, and so I have a good idea about how something might impact Pueblo, but I don't know exactly what it would mean for the western slope. I would love to have people join, if they are interested in being a part of that process. And as we know, you know, over the last many years, there have been so many things that have passed through the legislature that create additional requirements for us in education, and so often they're done without any additional funding. And so we just have to do it with the people that we have. And so we want to be very protective of our role, in particular, of course, but also of all, educators to make sure that we're making the job a more reasonable. Well, this is a very bold thing, but trying to manage the workload of educators overall to make sure that we can keep people in the profession,

Anna Gisetti  28:16  
wouldn't that be great losing people because they're burning out after two years, absolutely it's like we're fighting for things that help it be sustainable long term to get to retirement.

Katie Brown  28:29  
All of those reasons why my mom told me, please don't

Anna Gisetti  28:35  
It is not easy. It is not an easy field. Folks, I hope you heard that your voice is always welcome. Is very important, no matter where you are in this state and that we are really aiming to serve every community across the state, and we can do that best when you contribute and let us know what's going on in your part of Colorado. Katie, there's another thing, another way people that can share their voice right now, and I mentioned it a couple times on the other episodes, but I think it's important to keep rolling, because we are seeking that counselor voice through our partnership with Shmi, the school counselor Mental Health Initiative. So for our listeners, would you be able to say, like a quick what is this? And where can they go to share voice? So

Katie Brown  29:27  
our partnership with Shmi is incredibly valuable, because they've designed these questions that help us get a better handle on what the life of a school counselor in Colorado actually looks like our advocacy at the state level is really dependent on us being able to speak with some authority that we know what's happening, and currently it's hard to even know how many people are actually employed as school counselors. It gets into the identity of a school counselor, but also the role that their current. Fulfilling, because we understand that you are hired in this one position to do this one thing. But if you know from your use of time study that you're spending most of your time on fair share duties, that's a really valuable thing for us to be able to bring forward as we're having conversations in all of these very important places. Accessing the Shmi survey, it can be found

Anna Gisetti  30:26  
on our website. Yes, it is on there people. So make sure you go to coloradoschool counselor.org share your voice in the survey. Sign up for a committee, get involved, or if it's not your jam, just connect with us on any level, like I said, Ask some questions. Just let us know how you're doing, because we are so working to make sure that we are representing all school counselors in the state of Colorado. And I hope you picked up from what Katie was talking about, that there's so much important work happening. The advocacy doesn't end whether it's planting seeds or having conversations at fast food restaurants like you just never know where the work is going to be happening. And it's like, we're just, you know, sometimes we're never, like off, and that could be tiring. So which is why that self care is important, whether you're on break right now or you take the time for yourself, make sure you're taking care of yourselves too. Hey, Katie, before we wrap up, I have another very important question for you. Are you ready? Ready? What was your high school mascot? I have

Katie Brown  31:35  
to chuckle at that, because that is a very what feels like a Pueblo question to me, because we make a lot of decisions about people based on where they went to high school. And what I will say was, I was a South Colt. However, I grew up in the centennial Bulldog area. I went to church and played softball with the East eagles. I got friends all over town. So yeah, it's it's complicated,

Anna Gisetti  32:02  
eagles, Bulldogs and cults. Okay, so my high school mascot was a kangaroo. Who would win between the cult and the kangaroo?

Katie Brown  32:14  
I, I don't honestly know. I'd have to call, I'd have to get my husband's opinion on this. This is he's it's hard to say. I like to say. I like to think it would be a draw. Maybe they would amicably, talk through their differences.

Anna Gisetti  32:34  
Well, the counselor answered to that. I feel like the Colt would get on its hind legs and do this with its you can't see me on the video people, I'm like, kicking up my front legs, and then the kangaroo would also be making some jabs and kick in with the legs. So it might, you're right, it might just be a draw there. And a cult is really fast. I don't know how fast a kangaroo

Katie Brown  32:55  
is. That's it's a really good question, but I will again, come down hard on the side of peaceful conflict resolution here, here.

Anna Gisetti  33:04  
Amen Katie, so what are you doing to take care of yourself? Lots

Katie Brown  33:09  
of snuggles with my my my kids. I was about to say, my students, my kids, my personal children who are also my students. Lots of watching Abbott Elementary, a pedicure, some Christmas lights. It's going to be it's going to be fantastic. You've been

Matt Cundill  33:25  
listening to from planes to peaks counselors speak a podcast from the Colorado School Counselor Association. For more resources, including frequently asked questions and professional development, go to Colorado School counselor.org

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  33:40  
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