Canada. Are we truly a bilingual country?

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty 1 territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples and on the homeland of the Métis Nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:20  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:31  
Ride, ride protest, Pride Day, right week. Pride Parade right season. Born in protest, the Pride festival has become a beacon of celebration, and a lot more. And today on this podcast, I am joined by someone who is going to talk about their experience and pride specifically from the Royal Canadian Air Force because my guest today is major Jacqueline Zakhar. Jackie Welcome to humans on writes.

Major Jackie Zakhar  1:02  
Hi, thank you. Happy to be here.

Stuart Murray  1:04  
So here's a little bit of a nutshell about who Major Jacqueline Zakhar is she enrolled in the Royal Canadian Air Force in 2009 as an aerospace control officer, major Zacher was posted to four wing and cold lake in 2012. Following her instrument flight rules control training, and after an extended post to get four wing major Zacher was posted here in Winnipeg when Canadian Air Division as the executive assistant to the deputy commander. In 2022, Jackie was posted within one Canadian Air Division to the Combined Air Operations Center as a senior operations duty officer and a 2023 major Zacher made an occupational transfer to the newly formed Air Operations Office officer I should say trade and was posted to Barker College as the Department of air operations chair and program director for the ab initio course, majors Acker is passionate about promoting diversity, equity and inclusiveness and developing herself as a leader within the Royal Canadian Air Force. And in her free time, major Zacher enjoys adventures with her wife who is an air maintenance superintendent, Master Warrant Officer and their two young sons as well as playing hockey circuiting and telling punny jokes. Jackie, welcome again to humans on writes, I'm going to put you on the spot right now tell us a punny joke.

Major Jackie Zakhar  2:21  
Oh, man, there's so many of them. So where I get my silly jokes from is from I have a dad joke calendar, which is not super inclusive. But I do like to funny jokes. Of course. Now I'm drawing a blank and all of them. But yeah, give me a minute, and I'll come up with something I'll think of something. Yeah, no, no,

Stuart Murray  2:37  
I love them, you know, to some extent where normally you sort of read them and you go, Okay, actually, that's, it's just kind of clever. You know, it's kind of interesting. So anyway, we'll get back to that. Just a reminder, this call, we're gonna have the podcast, I'll ask you to tell one funny joke to start of the podcast. So Jackie, you joined the Royal Canadian Air Force in 2009. So prior to that, tell us a little bit about who Jacqueline Zakhar was before the word major became a part of who Jacqueline jacker was.

Major Jackie Zakhar  3:04  
Yeah, so quite honestly, I was a bit of a little bit lost in life. I was working full time at Subway. I graduated from university, I went to the University of Western Ontario in London, Ontario. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life had always kind of had the thought of wanting to join the military. But my mom was not overly supportive, because I'm an only child and her only thought was that I was gonna go off to war and die. So I didn't join right away. But I was working at Subway and I was just like, I'm going nowhere. And I just made the jump to join the courses.

Stuart Murray  3:38  
So at that time, so are you were you born in London, Ontario Jackie's not? No, I

Major Jackie Zakhar  3:44  
wasn't. I was born and raised in Waterloo, Ontario, which is a couple of hours from London. Yep.

Stuart Murray  3:49  
Okay. And then you went to school in that community, but eventually University in London?

Major Jackie Zakhar  3:54  
 That's correct. Yeah. Right. 

Stuart Murray  3:55  
Right. Okay. And so what was the draw of for you to join the Royal Canadian Air Force. So

Major Jackie Zakhar  4:01  
it was something that had always been in my mind. And I don't know what put it in my mind. My dad did serve in the Navy way back in the 70s, just for three years. And I don't know if that's what started it, or I just was always wanting to be part of something bigger. I did grow up in a small town where growing up gay was not a fun time. So the idea of, of getting away and sort of finding my own people, my own family was sort of probably one of the biggest draws. But I just, you know, a lot of people will say you just you've answered the call to serve. So as sort of cliches that sound nuts. That's pretty much it. I just felt the call and wanted to be part of something big.

Stuart Murray  4:41  
And so Jackie, just as you you mentioned, and we talked a bit a little bit about this, you know, just before we hit the record button about the reference to the queer community and how we would use that as a reference that would be all inclusive. So just to come back for a moment. I mean, did any of your friends and you talked to some of your friends knowing that you were part of the queer coming Unity, wanting to go into the Royal Canadian Air Force or just say the military in general, who doesn't have a long track record of being super open and inclusive for the community? How did you? How did you feel about that, that

Major Jackie Zakhar  5:12  
truthfully didn't really come up. It was something that was in the back of my mind a little bit. But because I knew that, you know, down in the US, they still had the Don't Ask, Don't Tell, and it was, you know, illegal and all that stuff. But I knew that in the Canadian military that had been taken away, and that rights had gone back to, you know, it's the same as a heterosexual couple would have. So that wasn't really a concern. For me, I knew I was joining a male dominated industry anyways, and just who I am, I just tend to be very open and willing to help other people learn provided that people come at me in, you know, the right way. So I wasn't overly concerned about that. I'm pretty tough and figured I could stand up for myself. So some of my queer friends did question me on it a little bit. But mostly, we're just supportive of my sort of chosen path in life.

Stuart Murray  5:59  
And is it fair to say that when you did join the Royal Canadian Air Force in 2009, Jackie, did you have any initial, you know, issues at all that you might have looked at it and said, You know, I know that there's laws have been passed in Canada to talk about how we need to be treated all as equals. I'm not necessarily feeling that or do you would you say, You know what, I was very surprised. I mean, look, and I want to be very clear here. I'm not trying to pick on on the cat for a moment you this could be General Motors, it could be Banco much. I mean, it's an organization, right of people. But I do think you're right. When you say at the outset, Jackie, that this organization is fairly heavily male dominated and has been for years and years, did you ever get a sense that it was going to be something more than perhaps you thought about and I understand that you're from a character standpoint, you're obviously very committed very, I want to say tough, I mean, in a very positive way, clearly. But did you ever feel that this was going to be something that might sort of be a part of what you might have to deal with on a daily basis,

Major Jackie Zakhar  6:57  
I wasn't so much from the sort of queer community standpoint, I was more concerned just as a woman in general, you hear about the negative things that happen. But for me, and it was something the way I was brought up that you don't put yourself in situations where it could be unsafe. So I even even now still approach you know, if I'm, say, approaching a new group of people, I will say, my partner or my spouse versus my wife, and that's just something that I've always done. And then once they sort of get the feel for the crowd, especially if it's an older crowd, because we have different generations, just to sort of test the waters, because if it's gonna put me in an uncomfortable position, or potentially, then I would rather just stick with my spouse then become my wife type thing. Right? Yeah.

Stuart Murray  7:43  
I mean, I, you know, just to tell you, you know, Jackie, I did a podcast with a fabulous woman, Kate Sinclair. She's a an adult filmmaker. And we talked to sort about the human rights of people working in that industry. But just to make the point, you know, I always said to her, I'm sure if you're having a conversation with somebody, and they ask you, what do you do? And she would say, I'm a filmmaker, they'd be like, wow, you know, that sounds interesting. Blah, blah, blah. First is, what do you do? I'm an adult filmmaker. It's like, oh, okay, what where do I go with this? Right? So I respect how you how you would do that? Do you still feel that today in 2024? Jackie? Yeah,

Major Jackie Zakhar  8:17  
100%, even just so for example, where I'm at work with Barker college. So we run the the air ops officer course it is for new people coming into the trade, we just finished up a course. But of course, it's 15 weeks long. And when I first introduced myself to the students, I will say my spouse, my spouse, my partner, you know, my partner, whatever. And then once I sort of get a feel for the students and the composition, that's when I will then at some point, just randomly switch to my wife or something like that. So I still very much do that, to this day. Maybe not as much as I used to just because I'm finding things are a lot better. But you just never know. So if it's a large group, I don't know them, I typically will still start with, you know, my spouse.

Stuart Murray  8:59  
Yeah. And just in your bio, we just love to touch on the fact that you've got two children. Tell us about your two children.

Major Jackie Zakhar  9:05  
Yeah, I've got two little boys, they're nine and seven. And I've been pleasantly surprised with their experiences so far in life, because of course, sending your voice at school and knowing they have two moms and knowing how kids are, you know, you worry about what's going to be said to them and things like that. And we've been very lucky thus far. We haven't had any issues with their school friends, they don't seem to care. The teachers have been fine. We haven't had any issues. You know, when it comes to Father's Day, it's you know, sometimes the teachers will ask, okay, well, how do we deal with Father's Day with your family? And you know, we'll say, oh, we'll just get them to make something for Papa or whatever. So yeah, we've got great boys. My oldest just turned nine and my youngest will be seven this week, actually. But when we had the boys obviously, we couldn't make them together. So there were a lot of questions and it was actually really funny because I found a lot of the guys were very interested in how this happened, but they were very awkward about How they asked about it, because they wanted to know, but they didn't, I guess know, the proper way to ask or if they were being rude or whatever. So it was quite comical at the time of oh, well, how did that happen? Yeah.

Stuart Murray  10:12  
And so just not to be awkward at all. But if you don't mind, and maybe it's a bit too personal, but did you adopt? Or how did you? How did you find your family?

Major Jackie Zakhar  10:20  
So we we went to a fertility clinic, I carried both both our boys. So we just did IUI, which is not quite IVF. So my own eggs in a way, we just got a donor and they do their thing. And how long can we get?

Stuart Murray  10:33  
Fantastic. And seven and nine, seven birthday this week? And then nine,

Major Jackie Zakhar  10:38  
almost seven yet? And nine yet? Yeah.

Stuart Murray  10:41  
And are they in the same school?

Major Jackie Zakhar  10:43  
They are? Yeah, they're in the same school, same French immersion school yet? Right?

Stuart Murray  10:46  
Yeah, super amazing. Thanks for sharing that jackets. It's a wonderful thing. So Jackie, let's, let's talk a little bit about, you know, your experience, how you've seen, you know, growth within sort of the queer community within the caf. And some of the things obviously, you know, I think we want to talk about some of the celebrations because there were so many positive things. And, you know, as an honorary colonel who is blessed to sort of have the ability to witness some of these things, from my perspective. I mean, I know 17 wing has done some amazing things like the diversity garden, and, you know, I have to give a shout out to my, you know, I don't know, how do I refer to my previous colonel, but to Dave proto, who was the colonel for 17 wing? You know, he invited me to a lot of these meetings. So as some of that happened, but, but from your perspective, Jackie, just, you know, maybe talk about maybe some of the firsts when you were in the Royal Canadian force that some of the first that you saw some of the barriers that started to come down and just share some of your personal experience, please. Yeah,

Major Jackie Zakhar  11:46  
absolutely. And before we continue, I just want because I know that some people do find the word queer to be a bit derogatory, but for me, it is something that is very often when you're trying to spit out the to s LGBTQIA. Plus community. Sometimes we find people like, oh, you know, the alphabet, soup or whatever. So queer is a word that the community has tried to take back. So in this case, using queer obviously, we're not using it derogatory, but I just I know, some people are uncomfortable with the work. So I just wanted to mention that. appreciate that clarification. Thanks. But when I joined in 2009, so I would say I've been pretty lucky in my life in general, but also in my career. I mean, of course, there's been challenges, I believe, the first pride flag. So when I joined in oh nine, there had not yet been a pride flag flown at any cash basis. The first one was flown, I believe in 2013, in Edmonton, at the army base. So it was flown there. And since then, it's just sort of steamrolled. And now, you mentioned the diversity garden here in Winnipeg. And one of the things that the caf has done is they've made Diversity Advisory Groups or DAGs, because we love our acronyms. And within those groups, one of the groups is the DTPA. EO, which is the defense team pride advisory organization. So I believe we're at five years now, it used to be the defense team pride network, and then they changed the name. But I believe this year is the fifth year for that organization. And having the degs has allowed those smaller communities, whether it be the women's community, persons with disability, the indigenous community has really allowed them a voice. So that's been a big change, definitely in the recent years. But when I first joined, it was typical of sort of anywhere else in society where you would hear gay jokes. Same as you would hear blonde jokes, you'd hear people saying things like, you know, that's so gay, or what does your husband do? Or you know, you just really need to find the right man. So, so comments like that, where people often didn't really think what they were saying, and I don't think necessarily meant them in a hateful way, but just sort of off the cuff, how we would make jokes like a typical blonde joke or something like that. And I think I've been lucky in the sense that I think for the lesbian community, it's a lot easier than the gay community, and especially the trans community, they're still very much in their fight for equality. But I've been very lucky. And like I said, it's a lot of those sort of microaggression type thing where people ask about your husband, and then it's, you have that awkward moment where it's, oh, well, my wife and making that. So that's an that's something that still happens today. But I would say it's happening less and less. I couldn't tell you the last time I heard a gay joke at work, it's been probably years, which is fantastic. Whereas when I first joined, it was constantly gay jokes constantly. Oh, that's so gay, that kind of stuff. But you just you don't hear it anymore. And I think that's fantastic. Yeah.

Stuart Murray  14:37  
And, Jackie, do you put that down to like, a level of education that's happened internally, or how do you what do you think has caused that sort of that understanding and that education, which has been most important to take place?

Major Jackie Zakhar  14:50  
Yeah. So I think it's been a little bit of internal to the Canadian Armed Forces, but also just in general society, as we We'll start talking about things more same as I could equate it to mental health. You never used to talk about mental health. Nobody talked about their mental health, it was not even a thing. And now it's very much a thing. Everybody's talking about having, you know, good mental health and things like that. So as you get educated about that, you realize how important that is. And I think the same thing has happened with the queer community that, you know, you have those sort of pioneers that stand up and say, Hey, this isn't okay, we need to educate people on this, the calf has done a lot of different things to try to educate folks. Some of them have worked, some of them haven't, some are better than others. But that's what anything, you know, one of the things that they most recently did was remove the gender from our dress race. So it was a big news story at the time, because they also allowed multiple earrings, you know, long beards, you know, crazy colored hair, that kind of stuff. But the big underlying piece beyond all that, you know, sort of big stuff was that gender was removed from the rights. So it was never, you know, men will have this hairstyle, and women will have this hairstyle that was just hairstyles. So that's something that's a really big positive thing that if you're, you know, cisgendered and probably male, you probably don't think about that. But if you're a woman or you're, you know, you're transgendered, or you're non binary, something like that, that is a big thing, to have the gender removed from the dress races, you can just with one group, you just wear whatever is within the rules, it doesn't matter what your gender is, you

Stuart Murray  16:26  
just fit in and Jackie would not have had an esteem impact, say on you know, the fatigues the different things that you wear, you know, for whether it's CAD pad or you know, whatever day it may require for what you're what you're wearing, is that that same sort of thing?

Major Jackie Zakhar  16:40  
Yeah, pretty much. So, within within this CAD Pat uniform, not so much of a change, because we all wear this anyways, there is only just one unisex style, but it would become more in when we wear our dress uniforms are DBQs, because there were women's cuts and men's cuts. So there still are women's and men's cuts. But it's not now that I can only get the women's cuts, I have access to all of the things. And someone who is outwardly presenting male wanting to wear a skirt, they're fully able to do so gender has been completely taken out. So that was definitely a big change. And also then with the hair rakes because, of course, obviously men always had to have, you know, the very short hair short on the sides, whereas now it's one hairstyle. So you can have whatever, whether you're male, female or non binary, whatever hairstyle you want, essentially, within the regulations, of course, but it's not men will have this one of women will have this one. So that's probably the biggest change was the hairstyle. So that, you know, those that weren't female could then have long hair.

Stuart Murray  17:42  
For sure. And Jackie, you know, again, not sure if you're able to sort of answer this question, because it's, you know, just comes down to, you know, sort of kind of how did it happen. And what I mean by that is that, you know, when these changes take place in organizations, real good organizations will go to their front lines, and they'll talk to people and they'll find out maybe why enrollment is in there. Maybe there's organizations that say we need more customers being whatever it may be. But sometimes, you know, it takes people going to the grassroots of the organization to talk about how do we adapt? How do we pivot? Did that take place? And can you speak to maybe any involvement you might have had with that? Yeah,

Major Jackie Zakhar  18:21  
100%. So I mean, obviously, it's the people at the top that make the final decisions. But the cap does do a relatively decent job to usually comes out surveys and things like that, or what we call town halls, when you have some high ranking person stand in front of a group of people and ask questions, or have them ask you questions, that type of thing, where they do start to ask questions like that. So we also have somebody's called CPCC, which is the chief professional conduct and culture group. So they were heavily involved, as far as I know, in the new dress regs, but they also have a dress committee. And within that dress committee, they did include the day. So the defense advisory groups, so I was there for one of the first meetings when they were discussing about some of the changes coming up, you know, even from baseball caps and things like that, because there had to be that gender piece with the baseball caps because we couldn't get the fitted ones. Because if women are, because at that time, it was still the dress regs were still separated. If you had a button, you obviously couldn't wear a baseball cap that was fitted because you need a hole in the back. So they did include the women's group, they included the indigenous group included, as far as I know, all of the degs to be part of these discussions of what is important to the people on the ground are in the trenches, as we like to say, because we're the ones that are going to be around so what is what is important, and the thing too with the dress regs is that and suddenly that the calf is maybe not great at is staying with the times. So you know as society changes, you know, the calf is supposed to be representative of Canadian society. So we thus as society changes we also need to change it adapt and grow. So the dress regs was sort of that first big thing that we did do to go to society, you know, an understanding that people with piercings and tattoos and things like that are still fully professional working people. But yeah, they definitely include at the grassroots level. And I'd say a lot of the stuff does come from the grassroots level, one of our initiatives act, and I've made sure I had it on me, here it is the DTPA do has their patch. So this is for the defense team pride advisory organization. It was actually the Winnipeg DTPA do that. It was our initiative to do this. And we did face some struggles in getting this there was some resistance more from the policy standpoint, because a lot of our policies need to be updated. But things take time. And they need to be worded properly. And they've got various levels of review. So we did have some trouble getting this because it didn't fall within the policy. But once the right people got a hold of it, we got approval pretty quick across the RCA F. So not just in Winnipeg, which is what we originally were going for. We just wanted to be able to wear it around the wing when we went to pride, that kind of stuff. But we actually managed to get it approved for all of the RCA F and I believe calf approval is probably in the works. But I don't know where that's at. Yeah, so

Stuart Murray  21:11  
Jackie, let me just sort of stop for a second there. I mean, because what you're you're holding up is a patch, that really, really is a pride patch. And it represents the DTP, EO, which is a defense team pride advisory organization. But you know, one of the things that I've learned as an honorary colonel and I've learned so much when I get a chance to spend time at 17 wing, is that in business, people always talk about their CV and they've got a piece of paper and they hand you the resume, and here's my here's who I am, et cetera. And it's a document. Whereas in the in the military, your CV is kind of you wear it, you kind of it's on your body. And so people can tell if you're left handed, or colonel, a sergeant or whatever it may be. So the patch that you're referring to Jackie, is that something that would be voluntary to wear? Or is it could you wear it on the basis that you're saying, we support? So you become an ally? Or is it mandatory? Or can you just talk a little bit about how would that patch impact the uniform?

Major Jackie Zakhar  22:10  
Yeah, 100%. So no, it's absolutely voluntary. And this was actually a discussion that came up, when we were in the process of having the patch approved, was there was some concern that having that patch on your shoulder, that that would show that maybe you are queer, whatever, and that that might then open you to harassment or potential violence or whatever, which when we were going through, it didn't even cross my mind, because in my mind, putting that on you says I'm a safe space, doesn't necessarily mean that I'm part of the community could mean that I'm an ally, or I'm just supportive, or, you know, whatever. What we were going for was, you know, the visibility of saying, hey, that person's got pride colors on their shoulder, what's that from? What's the DTPA? Yo, because one of the biggest things is that visibility piece of saying, Hey, we're here, hey, we're a safe space, you know, because there are lots of people who come up, and maybe they haven't been as fortunate as I have been, where I am very open about who I am, because I feel confident about it, I feel comfortable for the most part. But some people may not have that, especially if you have you know, a transgender person. That is, you know, still very much a community that still needs a lot of love and support. So to have, you know, if I have that on my shoulder, and maybe I don't, right away, scream, oh, here comes a gay person. But that patch can then show that, hey, this person is at least supportive in some way. I need to talk to them. And then that's how we can get more people into the VTP. Yo, and, you know, learning and spreading the word and, and it's really that visibility piece. But yeah, absolutely voluntary. Originally, we said you had to be part of the DTP yell. But then we were like, you won't know it. If people want to buy these patches, anybody can wear it. So it's just that sort of visibility piece of hey, that might be someone I can talk to you. Yeah. And you know,

Stuart Murray  23:52  
what's fascinating about it to Jackie is just that, you know, some of the links, which you provided for background reading, which I will put into the Episode notes of this podcast, is I think it's really interesting to go in and learn about, you know, here we are in 2024 more work to be done, obviously, but talking about being able to wear a patch that might signal to somebody, Hey, this is a safe space. Whereas you go back not that long ago, Jackie, I mean, certainly, you know, prior to before you joined in 2009. But not long before that. I mean, you know, there were organizations that people were searching out anybody who was part of that queer community, specifically to discriminate to get them out to remove them, you know, you you make reference to the fruit machine, which, I mean, it's it's astonishing. It's like science fiction, you know, but at that time, those elements were so real that, you know, I mean, even I think I read somewhere in that wonderful Vox air article that your friend wrote that even though you know, you started to celebrate the Pride Parade. In the early stages, you know, people from the queer community would still wear them. Maybe a bag on their face just so they wouldn't be recognized. And, you know, thank goodness, we've come further where we're now celebrating as opposed to, it's not an element of protest and celebration of celebration. So, you know, you look at how far we've come. I guess the question always becomes, Jackie, how much more do we have to do? I mean, because society evolves. And when you look at the fact that, you know, there's areas of particularly the trans community who are, you know, these things come in, in waves and stages, and I think the gay community has, you know, done, I mean, suffered tremendously, but has come forward and sort of the lesbian community in sort of that two spirited community, etc. But, you know, the trans community is one that is continues to struggle, and how do we continue to advance those conversations positively, in our everyday conversation, when there's, I think, a group and I'll just say, a group that are finding that they are concerned that books about trans children are in our libraries or books about, you know, they're deciding that maybe they shouldn't be so, so available to kids. And I think that one of the things that I mean, I I've had conversations with, but I certainly don't want to pretend for a second Jackie, that I understand it, I haven't had to go through it. But to understand what it's like to become a trans person and look for support, and how do we do that? And how does that happen? And I don't know if you have any thoughts you want to share on that? Because, you know, that is another part of the community that, as you say, deserves love and support like everybody else.

Major Jackie Zakhar  26:34  
Yeah, definitely. As far as the books in school, so I have a bit of a love hate relationship with pride month and all things pride, because it is a time of love a time of celebration, and just, you know, a lot of community. But there's also, you know, if you go on Facebook, or any media thing, where it's some sort of positive post towards pride, if you go into the comments, there'll be just as many negative comments, if not more than positive comments. So, you know, people say, Well, why do we still need a pride you have equal rights? Well, you know, read any of the comments on any positive pride post, and I'll tell you exactly why we still need these things to happen. But there's a lot of misconceptions, I think, especially with the trans community, because there will be the few that will ruin it for the many. So the problem, I think, is that we still have this misconception that you have men who are pretending to be women going into the change room, to you know, spy on little boys and little girls or, or whatever, where most people just want to go and use the bathroom and get out of there type thing. Great. But there's, there's still that misconception and and, you know, you often read about, you know, the queer community grooming children, and we can have these books because you're grooming these children. But it's, it's not that at all, obviously. And it's just putting that awareness out there. Because if you have a young person who can't figure out why they don't feel like they're friends, or they're not interested in the boys, they're supposed to be interested in or a little girl doesn't want to wear dresses, and they're confused. There's a reason that the suicide rate is so high in the trans community. Because it's, it's such a confusing time. And it's some people still feel that they're better off to be dead than to come out as trans, which is heartbreaking. And what can you do, the only thing you can do is if you have someone that you know who's come out, or you know, a child, or something that says that they're trans is support them. Even if you don't understand, you don't know the inclusive language to use. You mess up the pronouns. As you had mentioned earlier, if someone tells you there pronouns are they them, but you accidentally say she or he, it's trying to be better, it's, it's trying to do your best. I have often said to my, my peers in the community, if someone comes to you and they ask a question, a question about being trans or being gay or whatever, and they're coming from a place of wanting to learn even if they ask it wrong, or they ask it maybe even offensively, if they don't mean it that way, but they're trying to learn answer them now if they're obviously coming at you in a derogatory manner. Okay, fine. No. So the only thing you can really do is try to be there for that person, ask them what they need, how can you help because it's so different for everybody and just you know, checking up on your your friends and the people that you know that are in the community because people can look fine on the outside and not be on the inside. Just speaking up to if you know, say someone at your work or to come out that they're trans and they're going to switch to their their gender that they feel that they are that you if you hear other people making comments Oh, do you see Joe is now Josephine and oh, look, you know, they're making comments is, is stopped those comments, speak out, say, hey, we don't need to talk about this. We don't need to talk like this. And sort of being that bystanders. One of the words we use in the military is is if you're a bystander and you see something happening, whether it be towards women or people of color, or the LGBT community, say something don't just let it happen and not do anything say something. Because some people don't even realize the things that the same are doing are offensive. So you can bring that up and say, Hey, that was not really a good way to phrase that. They may not even realize so.

Stuart Murray  30:07  
Yeah, and I think, you know, great advice for sure. Jackie, I think that, you know, there's, there's lots of very public examples of people who, you know, just use the expression doth protest too much about somebody who might be gay or trans or whatever. And only to find out that, you know, they themselves are harboring, you know, their own issues, but they find a way to lash out. And maybe, as you say, they're trying to deal with it. Lots of examples in the States about, you know, famous US senators who are opposed to same sex rights, only to find out that they're on the side doing different things. And, and what does that mean, you know, so why be so adamant about it, but maybe be quite BBB supportive? So, yeah, I think that's amazing. And I think, you know, the fact that to you've been so kind of open on these conversations, I think it's really, really helpful. And I guess the, you know, the piece that I'd be interested in Jackie is, you know, do you think that because the caf, the Canadian Air Force has become so more open with the DAG, that diversity action group that you've seen more enrollment from, you know, and again, just because we're using the word queer community in a positive way, would you say that you have seen maybe more members of the queer community come into the calf, because they've been open? I'm

Major Jackie Zakhar  31:22  
sure it hasn't hurt. I can't say for sure that people are joining, knowing that the calf is trying, there are certainly still a lot of issues within the cabinet. I mean, there is anywhere in society, really. But I think people also especially the new generation coming in, they want to make changes, they want that equality, you know, that that old saying of you know, do as I say, not as I do, and you know, just shut up and do it, the generation coming in? Now, they don't stand for that. They want to know why. And they question things, and they want things to be better. And if you you know, even if someone has a speech where they say, ladies and gentlemen, chances are afterwards, somebody's probably going to come up to him and say, Hey, that was not inclusive, distinguished guests, you don't have to say, ladies and gentlemen. So I think it's probably a combination of yes, people know that the forces is trying. But I think people just, they just want to be part of something bigger and being part of a military family or the military is like a big family. And I think that brings people in just in general as well.

Stuart Murray  32:21  
Yeah. And I think, you know, again, just as you're mentioning, you know, the difference between ladies and gentlemen, which is just such a standard thing, but as you say, I mean, it's not standard and 2024. It wasn't standard, probably 30 years ago, but people use that. So that's a great way, Jackie, just to sort of look at, you know, a way of just a welcoming distinguished guests and kind of as be as inclusive as you as you possibly can. I guess the one thing is that if you were to somebody listening to this and saying, Well, you know, how would if I had a chance to ask Jackie, this question. And I wanted to sort of be an I don't know, how do you feel about the word ally? In terms of somebody who wants to support somebody in a different community? How do you feel about that

Major Jackie Zakhar  33:04  
term? So the thing about being an ally is, it's not an in the moment thing. So I have an issue with people who say they're an ally, maybe they show up at pride, but the rest of the year, they aren't really doing anything. So do you want to truly be an ally, you're an ally all the time and Ally can be I mean, you can be an ally and not attend pride or anything like that. But you can be an ally as small as you know, saying something like hey, don't don't say Hey, guys, you know, say Hey, folks, hey, peeps, you know, more inclusive that you know, getting rid of that ladies and gentlemen, you can you can be an ally in something as similar as that you can be or sorry, something as simple as that. You can be an ally, for example of my my last boss, when I worked in the operation center, he was the stereotypical manly man hunts, makes his own meat does all of the things that are typical, you know, stereotypical manly man. And he was a huge ally in the community, straight as an arrow. But he would be the first one to speak up and say something, he would come to events and he would share his story because his father was one of the people during the purge back in the 90s, early 90s, and the 80s and stuff, when they were seeking out members of the queer community, his father was an MP at the time and he was part of those people who were searching out the other people. So he has some internal turmoil because of that, so his way to I guess, maybe make up for it or or correct some of the wrongs that his father had done. He's been a strong supporter of the queer community and just being there you know, marching in the parade with us that kind of stuff. That is how you can be an ally but but like I said, it's not just a one minute thing it's an all the time

Stuart Murray  34:46  
thing. Yeah, and I think you know, those that I mean, you know, language Jackie, as we know, today is So, you know, you have to be very careful with language because, you know, to sort of pump your chest and Sam and ally. It's like If you have to say it, maybe you're not like, you know, just it's more through demonstration and how you can kind of make that work. Jackie, just in your conversation, you did mention the word purge. And of course, one of the things that is happening very much today is there is an exhibit that has been developed and will be, I think, unveiled at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, which is all about the LGBT Q purge. Just before I asked you a little bit about that, because I went on some of the stuff that you sent me, which was so fascinating to read. But I realized that some of the people that are on the LGBT Q purge board, were former members of the Royal Canadian Air Force. And so it's interesting to see that tie. But one of the things that I would ask is that the LGBTQ urge in the actual name, it does not mention two spirited, it does not mention one plus it does not mention some of the other elements. You know, is that something that needs to be addressed or changed? Or, again, again, I want to ask this be very clear, Jackie, I know you have nothing to do with that. But I'm just sort of from your perspective, again, just from a learning perspective, because it does seem that there's an option or somebody might say, it's not as inclusive as it could be.

Major Jackie Zakhar  36:08  
I have thought about that, actually, why it is only the LGBT purge. And my suspicion would probably be that when you know, that ban was lifted, I think, in 92, when the class action lawsuit and all that stuff came out, the acronym at the time probably was still just the LGBT. Whereas as we've learned more, you know, even in recent years, the the two SPS was at the end, and they've moved it to the beginning to recognize that two spirited individuals were here before the rest of us. So as we we learn more, we adapted and change, and sometimes it does become confusing. Now, what is the acronym now? But for the The Purge itself? I suspect, like I said, it's probably because of that time, it was just the LGBT, one sort of the acronym. And I would guess that probably for licensing reasons, they haven't changed it. Could they change it? Absolutely. Because there would have absolutely have been two spirited people, intersex people, more of the further on letters, that would have been part of the purge. So if they wanted to be more inclusive, they could definitely change the acronym. But of course, I can't speak to why they haven't.

Stuart Murray  37:14  
No, and I mean it very well. You mean this, this is all organic. And these things happen. I mean, I think even I, if I have to go back and listen to myself here, but I think I instead of saying LGBT, I think I said LGBTQ. So I've, you know, even misrepresented it in kind of the way that I've presented it. So yeah, that's a it's a fascinating journey. And again, there's so much information that you have so generously offered kind of when you filled out the podcast info form, which I'll make sure are part of the Episode Notes jockey, because it's really, really informative and very easy to access. Is there anything that you would like to share with anybody listening that maybe I haven't asked you that you would think, you know, look, there's something I really want to just sort of share with anybody who's listening about my experience, where we've gone, what we need to do, just anything from your perspective, Jackie, on on this whole journey that you've been on.

Major Jackie Zakhar  38:06  
From the queer side of it, I would say to the folks who are maybe struggling or their, you know, the big thing about making progress is being persistent. So we often feel that as individuals, we can't make change. And I would 100% say that you as an individual can. So if there's something that a person is noticing that needs to be changed, speak up from the other side of it. If you are looking to support someone or gather information, ask, ask as politely as you can. Some people are not open, depending on what their experiences are not open to talking about things I had mentioned before we started recording about how when my wife and I were having our children, there were a lot of people were very interested in, how did that happen? But they were very awkward about asking it and I would just say ask me, whatever you want to ask. And if I'm not comfortable, I won't answer it. But ask me whatever you want to ask. Some people aren't open like that. And we also have to respect that. So if you ask a person, something, maybe you want to know about their experiences or their life, but they're not open to it, you do have to respect that as well. But some people will be very much open to it. If folks wanted to know more about things in the caf, specifically, there are links to the DTPA to various email addresses that you can get in contact with folks. If people want to know more within the forces. But ask don't be afraid of what you don't know. Ask questions and those on the queer side. Be open to answering those questions.

Stuart Murray  39:31  
Yeah, a great way to kind of hit the off ramp in our conversation. Jackie, thank you so much. I am going to ask major Jacqueline's soccer for one tiny joke.

Major Jackie Zakhar  39:42  
I got one. I got one. All right. What do you call a fake noodle? And in pasture? It's terrible.

Stuart Murray  39:52  
And pasture. I love it. I love it. Jackie. Good for you. I love it. Well done. You know what I mean? If people sort of start groaning and sort that you hit the nail on the head. That's fantastic. Jackie, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for sharing your personal journey, some of the things that you've experienced and you know, with your family and your kids, and you know, I wish you a wonderful summer. Again, I just want to acknowledge that you have your wife with you now with your kids, and you found some time in your family time to jump on to do this podcast. So please understand that I really appreciate your time and appreciate all the all that you've done and thank you for sharing

Major Jackie Zakhar  40:28  
and sharing my pleasure.

Matt Cundill  40:30  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey music by Doug Edmund. For more go to human rights hub.ca

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  40:51  
Produced and distributed by the sound off media company

Transcribed by https://otter.ai