Cathy Ching: Human Rights Book Award Winner

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One Territory, their traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:20  
 This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:31  
In recent years, there has been a growing trend towards modest wear, also known as modest clothing, especially in the fashion industry. Modest wear refers to clothing that covers the body in a modest and appropriate way according to cultural and religious beliefs. Modest clothing is designed to respect the wearer's modesty, regardless of their beliefs or backgrounds, and allows them to express themselves through fashion without compromising their values. Fashion, by Hafsa, is a progressive artistic line of clothing designed for the modern modest woman. Hafsa uses influences from her experiences, from different cultures to create a unique line of modest clothing being designed to be worn by anyone, regardless of belief is important as half she's vision is to bring the old world into the new world, to respect the past while modernizing to prepare for the future. Authentic custom embroidery and painted designs stand out to promote a woman's forward fashion sense while respecting one's preferences and beliefs, regardless of body type or background. Hafsa, welcome to humans on rights.

Hafsa Altaf  1:51  
Thank you, Stuart, thank you for having me

Stuart Murray  1:53  
so. Hafsa, I know that you have a clothing design and we're going to talk a lot about that, but what got you involved in and interested in fashion. What's your background? Were you trained in fashion? Did you study fashion? Just give us a sense of why we're delighted to have you on this podcast.

Hafsa Altaf  2:10  
Growing up, I was always drawn to fashion and art for its ability to help build confidence, and that is what drives me. Since I was young, fashion has helped a lot in my personal life. It was this creative outlet where when I was able to put on a great outfit, feel good and it really changed the way my day went. And at the same time, the way I dressed and expressed myself was such a powerful tool that helped change narrative on how people perceived me. So this was very important when I was a young adult and started developing my own opinions and my own belief system. Today, the way the world views modest women and modest fashion is very different than how it was when I was younger. So that was something very important to me. You didn't see a lot of women styling the hijab as you see today, and you didn't see Muslim women having fun with what they're wearing. And I guess, just to quickly explain what a hijab is, it's this head covering that many Muslim women wear to practice modesty. And so I saw a lot of women wearing older generation clothing and traditional clothing. And I think this narrative began that women had to dress a certain way, which isn't true. Women dressed this way because there wasn't a lot of options for them. And so when I was younger, I saw that women already had to defend themselves and educate the world in a different way that other women didn't. And then on top of that, there wasn't many options for them to express themselves through their clothing. So that added another challenge. So since I was young, I saw this, and I knew I wanted to address this when I grew up, and show the world that Muslim women are like any other human beings. So I really wanted to help women express a part of their individuality through what they're wearing. But for me, pursuing a career in art was not common in my circle and in my culture, and so pursuing fashion itself was a struggle for me. I had to push against cultural norms, and this was definitely a challenge. But you know, this was something I was very passionate about, and in the end, I ended up leaving everything behind to pursue this dream I had, and I went to fashion school, and that was the first step, and it's been a journey while I figured out life as a woman and what that meant for me as a Muslim woman living in Canada, the struggles there Were also additional struggles that other people didn't face. I realized my life was my life on my own terms. I made my own decisions and followed what I wanted to do, and this was something that was so important to me, and now I push women to do the same. Okay? And the second challenge for me was navigating the fashion industry. When I did so to this day, there isn't many women in the fashion industry, industry, especially in Canada, Muslim women. Specifically. I remember when I started doing trade shows, and I did fashion shows, I was, I was usually the only Muslim woman participating in these events. And I think some people would have taken that in the negative, but for me, it empowered me even more. And when I started seeing the impact I made on people's lives, it is to this day, so fulfilling. And reminds me of why I started. You

Stuart Murray  5:32  
made a comment. I had to leave everything behind and focus on fashion. Put that in context, please. Yeah, absolutely.

Hafsa Altaf  5:39  
So I used to live in Saskatoon, which is a very small city in Saskatchewan, and there is no fashion school. There is no fashion opportunity. So for me, I had to leave my family, I had to leave my community and my friends. And for a Muslim woman, that is that that is a big deal. So taking that step was a big challenge, and even confronting my family and my friends about what I wanted to do was not easy. So I moved provinces to pursue school. That was the first step, and started my own life. And that was, that was a challenge. And I think many, many women face this

Stuart Murray  6:15  
for sure, and that is a I mean, when you say leave behind it, you know, I mean, from an emotional standpoint, Hafsah, I mean, that is a huge move, you know, yet, obviously, from your perspective, you had the confidence and the determination to pursue what you have clearly established, which is a whole fashion profession. You see, you moved provinces. Where did you go to fashion school? Actually,

Hafsa Altaf  6:38  
in Winnipeg. So I went to MC College, and that was the first step after that I worked in the industry, so I have over six plus years of experience in the fashion industry. And then at the same time, I started this clothing brand, because that was the ultimate goal, and what I wanted to

Stuart Murray  6:54  
do when you were training, for example, in the fashion industry, was there any conversations Hafsa about modest fashion or modest wear, was that any part of that dialog at that point? No,

Hafsa Altaf  7:07  
that wasn't. And that was another reason why I wanted to do what I want to do, because it's often pushed to the side, and people don't talk about it. But even the market, the modest market, is such a big market. So even from business point, there's so many opportunities there. So that was something that always surprised me, why people weren't focusing on it. Well,

Stuart Murray  7:31  
I mean, as an entrepreneur, which you are, I mean, you see an opening, it's part of what you want to do. You know, you go for it. So, I mean, it's been very rewarding, but talk about some of the challenges you had to establish your business, which is fashions by Hafsa.

Hafsa Altaf  7:47  
Oh, there's many challenges. I think one of the struggle entrepreneurs face is having that self belief over time. So just having, like, going back to your mission and why you're doing what you're doing is so important, because there's so many issues that come across. So another reason is just supply chain, and like finding your materials and finding suppliers where to sell things. So when you're starting out, all of those things, those little, little things add up and can definitely be a challenge. The other challenge is how people perceive you, and when you receive negative comments and negativity, that is very difficult, so it's very important to remember why you started doing what you do, and always going back to your statement and your mission, and that is what has helped me in my own journey.

Stuart Murray  8:35  
And did anybody at some point have to sort of challenge you? And I say it could be from the financial aspect of trying to finance your your business, or just people who you want to get product from, you know, knowing that you were going into a specific area of modest wear, not that it would ever sort of deter you, because you've been successful, and as you say, you got to stick to your dream. But did you ever feel at one point that perhaps you were being and I want to be very careful half so I don't want to talk about discrimination. I, you know, we may get into that at some part of the conversation. But did you ever feel at some point you're going if I wasn't pursuing this particular line of clothing, or, as from a Muslim woman, I think I could have advanced this sooner or you, you might have seen a different approach from people

Hafsa Altaf  9:21  
absolutely in the beginning, I did, and that's just because now modest fashion and Muslim women, I think, are accepted differently than it was when I started out in my career. You do see more women entrepreneurs, like Muslim women entrepreneurs and Muslim women in the fashion industry than you did when I started. So when I started, and I was applying to trade shows and all these events, I was always rejected, and I think a big part of it was definitely because my brand focused on modest fashion, and I don't think people understood what that was. So then I had to go on it in a different way, and I would call these people and call the event people and explain what. It was and what I could bring to the table, and so going that extra mile and working harder definitely helped me then and now. You know, I've established myself, and through my social media, people see the impact of what I'm doing, and now I'm definitely people are reaching out to me to be part of these shows, because they see that impact and how important it is part

Stuart Murray  10:21  
of the whole process is in society, and particularly as you know, when you and I chatted just about coming on to this podcast, half so and I just said, it's, you know, I try to create a platform for human rights advocates or educators. And you know, you fit the bill perfectly, because you're educating people about the importance of modest wear, modest clothing. And I just want to pause for a second half. So because does the word modest clothing, does that really define in your perspective, what you're trying to do is that A is that a good label? If I could use that term,

Hafsa Altaf  10:55  
I would say it's modern, modest fashion. I think it's very different. That's what is the basis of my brand. Because let's start with what modest fashion is. So I think the general kind of the definition that everyone can understand is that it's clothing essentially that covers the body, so with higher necklines showing less skin, not wearing form fitting, clothing generally follows a relaxed silhouette, and that is interpreted in so many different ways, but that, I would say, is kind of the base definition of modest dressing. And what I do with my brand is to show that modest dressing still fits trends, still fits today's society, but you don't have to compromise your values or your beliefs, and that is what I try doing with my brand, and showing people you can have fun with clothing. And oftentimes people are surprised when they see my clothing, how well it fits into this category, but it doesn't look as if you're like intentionally wearing modest clothing, if that makes sense,

Stuart Murray  11:56  
sure you're the professional in this industry, and that's why I think it's really important to get your perspective, because I think a lot of times when you think about modest clothing, you know it's for people who just maybe not and male, female uncomfortable, maybe with their body type, and so they tend to buy a larger size, just maybe if they're not comfortable. And it's really people's choice to address how they want. I think the word that you brought in, which I think is really critical to the conversation, is modern, modest clothing, because I went on to your your site, and we'll make sure that in the episode, notes that both your website, your Instagram, all of the stuff that you're so active with Hafsa is is there for people to pursue, but is it fair to say that a lot of your design is more focused on women than on men. Yes,

Hafsa Altaf  12:45  
that is correct, and it's something I focus on because of the struggles I went through as a women and a Muslim woman. So a big part of my brand that I focus on is Muslim women, because I know the struggles I've been through it, and it's not easy, so I want to help these women specifically. However, my overall focus is on the modern modest women, and not limited to just Muslim women. And as I grew and my brand grew and evolved, I realized the need for modest fashion for everyone, and how many people and women relate to my story, or men too, men too. I have men customers, but how many people relate to my story and the stories I tell through my art? And I do think what you brought up is very good, that a misconception a lot of people have is they think modest fashion is limited to just Muslim women, and it's not many Muslim women. They do tend to practice modesty in some way, shape or form, but it really is for everyone. And over the last decade, you've seen that, you know, it's been accepted to the public. And like you mentioned, it's a great way to help people build confidence. When you are wearing relaxed things, it brings confidence out from people. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  13:59  
I think one of the things that I took from just reading a little bit about what you've done is about creating choice empowerment, and it's around inclusivity. So you're really trying to create a fashion brand that is one that is accessible and inclusive. So we're having this conversation as the Olympics are going on in Paris. And of course, there's always this notion that when companies design products for athletes, the notion is, it seems to me, it's almost like, how do we create an athletic piece of wear fabric that it's almost like, how do we paint it on somebody's body so it's tight fitting. I mean, it shows every little muscle, every ripple you have. And particularly for women, some of the designs that they came out with were, you know, very high cut in the groin area. And so, you know, people look at that and say, Well, wait a minute, if I'm an athlete, do I have to be worried about some sort of malfunction? Or can I be an athlete and do the kinds of things I want do? I have to worry about the clothing that I'm wearing? Yeah. It's outrageous, in my mind, but you know, sometimes the athletes, they're kind of always forced to wear certain things, and we've seen some pushback on that. So how do you feel about sort of the way that that industry is evolving?

Hafsa Altaf  15:11  
It is definitely changing as there's so many more people being involved in that industry, and like you mentioned, there's more pushback than there used to be 10 years ago, and people are realizing that, yes, you can still fit in all the rules and regulations that that sport requires, but you can alter their outfits so it makes more people comfortable. And we have the technology now then that helps with that that we didn't have, like 1015 years ago. We have features like such as poly gene wicking and all these other technical features that you can put on athletic apparel that still gives the same result that again, you wouldn't have 10 years ago. And as you see again, more women, Muslim women, in the active space, and you see women of color and just different people with different preferences in the active space, people are forced to change and realize that's important for how the industry will move forward,

Stuart Murray  16:06  
for sure. So you know, we talked a little bit about, say, Muslim women who want to go to the gym. Hafsa, I want to ask you a little bit about the activewear in gym, and then I want to talk a little bit about the fact that when it's summer time and you want to go to the beach. So let's, let's look at those two areas. So let's start with working out in a gym, for example. So

Hafsa Altaf  16:25  
that is a big struggle, and many brands, you know, Nike, Adidas, some of the big brands, have attempted to tackle that. And for the most part, now we are at a stage where they are developing some pieces that meet that modest women's requirement. So it has come a long way. There's also Muslim brands now that focus on the active space, and that has been a changer, because these people truly, you know, they they know the market, they know the requirements, and so they built product that really benefits that women. So it definitely has changed. And there are options now. There are options for women that want to go to the gym and be more modest. So What brands do is, it's really all about the fabric. So you know that, you know they have to have higher necklines, longer sleeves. So brands spent a lot of time on developing fabric that is breathable, that is working, that you that is, you know, odor resistant, so that women can truly work out and feel comfortable.

Stuart Murray  17:25  
When I look Hafsa at what I mean, I saw a Nike ad. I mean for a woman to wear a hijab and work out. I mean you and I, I can see you are wearing what I would call more of a if I could use the word traditional, please correct me if I'm using the wrong term. But you know, hijab that you're wearing, I'm not sure you would go into a gym with that. You need something, as you say, that is more understanding of the kind of the rigor of working out.

Hafsa Altaf  17:52  
Yes, absolutely. And so brands are catering towards that. So the style I'm wearing is more flowy, and this wouldn't work in a gym, as it just wouldn't work in that setting. So brands have definitely, you know, looking at the fabric, so making it technical, making it like fitted, something you can easily tuck into your shirt. The size would be smaller. It would be a mesh, but not a see through mesh. So there's so many things go into it. And we definitely have the technology now, and brands have come a long way, and they are getting options so and which is, as a Muslim woman, it is great to see that brands again, such as Nike and and Lululemon and Adidas that are investing into this, because it is not easy, but we do have options now that are functional for the Muslim women at the gym, which is incredible to see for

Stuart Murray  18:41  
sure. So you mentioned, I just pick up on one thing you talked about, the fact that there may be mesh, but it's not invisible mesh. Are there any issues Hafsa around the color of what you may wear in a gymnasium? Or is color an issue in any way, shape or form, bright versus, you know, dark or anything at all?

Hafsa Altaf  18:58  
No, it's not an issue. And that's another I would say, people think that Muslim women are limited to dark colors, and that is not true at all. I think it's just human nature that you tend to go towards black or you tend to go towards darker colors. But many women wear bright colors, and that is actually something that I do through my brand. My art is very colorful, very bright, and it's just another way I show women that you can have fun with what you're wearing. That's really important to me. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  19:27  
no one that's great, because it sort of just kind of gets into the other piece that I just wanted to get your thoughts on. I mean, you know, in the summer, you know, we can have some pretty warm, hot days. And so what does it mean to wear modern, modest clothing, for example, if you want to go to the beach. Have you designed something specifically for that? Or have you seen something that you think works? Or is there more opportunity there?

Hafsa Altaf  19:51  
There's definitely more opportunity in the whole apparel space. And as new technology comes out, we can always improve. So that is something that I. Don't think will ever change. But one thing that is very key for modest fashion is fabrics. So within summertime, wearing natural fibers, natural fabrics such as Lyocell cottons, linens, they're more breathable. The challenge with those are a lot of these natural fibers are seen through. So that is something that I spend a lot of time on as well, is finding natural fibers that you know will keep you cool in the summertime, but finding fabrics that are not see through. So I do spend a lot of time there, and I do have fabrics now that meet meet these requirements at the same time in the summertime, the best advice I give is wearing looser silhouettes. So when you're wearing flowy pants, flowy tops, it just allows that, like, circulation and keeps you cool in the summer time, and when you're going to the beach or out.

Stuart Murray  20:48  
So lots of opportunities. That's fantastic, because I'm very fair skinned, and trust me, when if I go anywhere near the Sun, I mean, I, you know, no, you have to put on 50, but I gotta wear, like, a big hat, you know, just to protect myself. So there's no difference, really. I mean, that that would be my form of of modern modest wear, right? I mean, and to some extent, you know, half so one of the things that has happened over and you've seen this, and you're a part of it, and you're pushing it as a leader in this whole industry of modern modest clothing. But you know, one of the things about fashion is there's another word that always seems to come with fashion, and that is trend. So the question is, is this a trend to more modern, modest clothing, or is it something that is not so much a trend. It's about an understanding of how our narrative around that is starting to change,

Hafsa Altaf  21:41  
I would definitely say it's a narrative. It's not a trend. We started seeing a shift in the modest fashion industry about 10 years ago, and a big part of that went was with the rise of social media. And you saw modest influences, whether they wore a hijab or not, were a hijab, whether they were Muslims or not, Muslims. That is where it started with education, and you saw how people could incorporate modesty into their lifestyles, into their beliefs and values. And so definitely, it's not a trend. However, the modest industry does take influences from current trends. So one example is or genres like fashion genre. So you see that whole street wear culture that is typically follows that oversight silhouette. And so that is one way you're incorporating that silhouette and it fits in modest fashion. Another way is during covid, we saw the push for comfort within all areas. So whether it was active lifestyle formal wear. So designing comfort pieces typically are, you know, relaxed silhouettes. So that was another way where you could take trends, I would say, in a way, into the modest market.

Stuart Murray  22:54  
And I mean, the reason I kind of explore that a bit with you. Ahafsa, thank you for your explanation is, you know, there's always this side, I think, as society is starting to very, you know, evolve and learn about other people's beliefs and their cultures. I mean, I think when I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, the conversation was all all about the other, you know, and so the importance of empowering and understanding what that meant. But along with that, it seemed to come that there were, I guess I'll just call it sort of people that wanted to participate as being maybe an ally in a certain way. But it became performative, like organizations that may be trying to get into supporting modern, modest wear, that is it performative, rather than saying we're really trying to help women in this regard. Or is it more look at us as a company. Look how, how great we are. Look at how, you know, advanced we are, look at what we're doing. So rather than make it about really understanding the changing, as you said, changing the narrative, it becomes more of a you know, let's check a box here for our annual report, because we now are reaching out, or we're saying that we're doing something to support modern modest wear.

Hafsa Altaf  24:11  
I definitely think many brands started with that where I've we all Muslim women and the modest people felt it was clicking off a box. So what I mean by that is, when you first started seeing performance apparel come out, like the first performance, like hijab that came out, that some brands did, it was not functional at all. It looked great from the outside, but it didn't have any of those technical features or technical aspects that would help a woman while she was working out or being active. But over time, that has changed, and the biggest thing for me is education. As brands are being more educated, where there's more people like me, educating the world and educating other people, as well as the demand for it, more people are speaking out now, and more people want this. So brands are. I think forced to, in a way, cater towards people because it makes up such a big part of their market.

Stuart Murray  25:06  
You say this started about 10 years ago. Hafsa, can you kind of look back and say there were a couple of defining moments where this really started to shift the narrative on modern, modest clothing? Absolutely,

Hafsa Altaf  25:18  
the biggest shift was through with the rise of social media and influences. I think that was one of the biggest step where all these creators were given a platform that they never were before, and you saw videos go viral, and that's where I think people started realizing the power of social media and the power of what one person could do. So those, definitely, those events where people were giving their opinion was a really big shift. The other big shifts was when you saw Muslim act like, I'm going to give one example, like athletes, when you saw that fighting and being in the Olympics. So one example is if the Hajj Muhammad, who was a professional fencer. So she was in the Olympics and actually a brand ambassador for Nike. So when you see more women being involved in the community, involved in events, people are forced to again, then you know, cater towards them. So I think that's a big, big shift. And that is one thing again I do with my brand is educating women, and especially Muslim women, to to take that chance and to believe in themselves and like take that step so to do what they want to do, that's how it starts. So

Stuart Murray  26:31  
just come back for one second half. So on the brand athlete, I missed her name. She's a fencer,

Hafsa Altaf  26:38  
yes, yes, she was a fencer and she was in the Olympics. She represented Team USA, and that was a big, big shift to see a women wearing a hijab in the Olympics.

Stuart Murray  26:50  
And of course, there's a face cover involved, right for fencing, I mean, for protection. So she would wear the hijab underneath the helmet and the face protector, yes, yeah, but when she took it off, I mean, everybody would see, you know, at the conclusion of the match, you know, they we could see that she was wearing a hijab. So I can see how that would have a tremendous impact. And, you know, very powerful. And a brand like Nike on so many levels, and you mentioned Lula and other companies, so just out of curiosity, if a non Muslim women wanted to wear part of your clothing brand. Is she wearing a hijab? You call it a hijab? Hijab

Hafsa Altaf  27:30  
is more of the head covering many Muslim women wear, and that's kind of the definition that is today. So many women that are not Muslim have worn it, and to me, that is such an incredible feeling that they would like to try. So I have a lot of customers that travel, and they'll go to like Dubai or places like that, and they want to respect the culture, and so they'll often come to me and we talk about the hijab, and I show them how to wear it, different ways to wear it. And it is such a great, great feeling, and they have a great time. So they're apps. Anyone is allowed to wear hijab? Absolutely 100% but the clothing, the clothing I have many non Muslims that wear it. So again, my brand is for anyone, and that is something that, again, is very important, that it's not limited to just Muslim women. Modesty is for everyone.

Stuart Murray  28:29  
I just wondered if you had a challenge we in the fashion industry of finding Muslim women to be a person who is going to wear your fashion, your clothing. Is that a challenge? Hafsa, finding models?

Hafsa Altaf  28:44  
Yes, I think in general, it's very hard finding models, like women. Models. You know, a lot of women are shy, and it takes, it takes a lot to be in front of cameras, especially with my brand. I like, I really like to try using like real you call them like real people, not professionals, and I think that just goes with my story and my brand. So when I always struggle finding Muslim women as you're shy and you don't want to be in front of a camera, so that is definitely a challenge. And another reason, what I try doing with my brand is giving women that confidence to then do things like being a part of a photo shoot. And then what? When I do have women that are part of my shoots, it is so much fun, and they enjoy it, and it gives them confidence in a different way they've never had. So then it's such a great feeling that I've helped them in some way that you know, will stay with them for the rest, you know, for their lives.

Stuart Murray  29:36  
And I mean, you know, again, it comes with what you're doing again, as entrepreneurs, typically, you're leading. You're the front of a of a movement. You're designing things, you're challenging things, and that's clearly what you're doing. And so perhaps one of the other opportunities that will come out of this Hafsa is that there may be other women who are Muslim women, that say, I never thought I could be a model. And it may be not something they want to do full time, maybe something they just do as part time, or whatever their choice may be, but you may be creating another opportunity for Muslim women to be a part of a whole industry that maybe at one time they didn't think they could be a part of, absolutely, and

Hafsa Altaf  30:15  
it's just giving confidence and not even being part of the fashion industry. It's just, I really help women, you know, find their voice and their style without compromising their values. So whether you want to be in the fashion industry, be an athlete or even be a doctor, every career has its own challenges, and my job is I just want to help these women be happy in their lives. And I think that's one reason why so many people relate to me or or resonate with my brand and art is because I've been through that. I've been through this journey. That's why I tell my story to others. Is because it's hard. It's very hard being the first person in the fashion industry. When I'm Winnipeg, you didn't see anyone, any Muslim people in the fashion industry or even trying to get when I started doing fashion shows, trying to get women to wear a hijab in the fashion show was a challenge, but that was something important to me, and I wanted that representation, so I fought for it. So definitely, I think in some, some way I feel now I see the impact I'm making on other people's lives, and that is so rewarding. And why I do what I do? Yeah,

Stuart Murray  31:26  
well, and I mean, it's incredible what you do and and you've done an amazing job so far, I want to just talk a little bit about your personal journey. And if you have seen issues around Islamophobia, and I'm asking that question because you are a proud Muslim woman. You want other Muslim women to be proud about who they are, about their beliefs, their culture, but you're really when you wear a hijab as an example, you're signaling to society, and you should be signaling to society about how proud you are. Some may not see it that way.

Hafsa Altaf  32:09  
It all starts down with your self confidence and how you view yourself. So that was something from an early age, when I developed my own opinions and beliefs. I knew this was something important to me, and I found my own reason for being a practicing Muslim. So that is very important. When you have confidence in yourself, when you believe in your values, your religion, whatever that may be, it becomes much easier. So that is something very important. And for sure, there's struggles. There's struggles that I face that other people don't face. So one example was, as I mentioned earlier, was when I was trying to get into shows, I was reducted. And so then a lot of times that can be negative for a lot of people, and people would quit. But if you truly believe in what you believe in, you then keep on pushing towards it, and I kept on fighting until I got in. So another thing for sure is that women, or just Muslims in general, at airports, right? You're screened more. But in the end, if it's something important to you, you'll keep on pushing and just education educating people. And the more education people have, the more exposure people have to Muslim women, especially the easier get. And like I mentioned, we've seen a shift from, like 10 years ago to now, just the shift how people view Muslim women. And I think it's just going to get better as there's more people involved in this community and there's more education.

Stuart Murray  33:40  
So when you look at modern, modest wear, we've talked about a hijab, and I understand that, you know, a woman wearing a hijab is, you can call that person a hijabi. Is that correct? Okay, yes. Thank you, correct. Okay, listen, just if I veer off, you know, it's up to you. You got to correct me, because this is the education part of me being part of this podcast, just explore your thoughts from a Muslim woman who you know feels that they want to wear a niqab. Is that part of the the modern modest wear also, or at this point, is it really more focused around a hijab? That is more

Hafsa Altaf  34:17  
religion and so Muslim women practice modesty, and that is interpreted differently through every individual and their relationship with God, to someone that wears whether you wear a hijab, whether you don't cover your hair, whether you cover your face, that is the person's relationship to God and how they believe in God. So definitely that's more religion, and that wouldn't have anything to do with fashion.

Stuart Murray  34:42  
Okay, I really appreciate explaining that, because I just, you know, people learn the difference between, as I've had to turn between a nicob, a hijab, you know, and the different kinds of of covering. So I appreciate bringing the religious piece in, because that that explains a lot. So thanks for that. So Hafsa, if you looked out, uh. The next sort of five years, how do you see, or how do you hope to see the changes in the modern, modest fashion industry start to grow, and because of what you've seen over the past number of years, you've seen some amazing changes. How do you see those changes having a broader impact on society? I

Hafsa Altaf  35:19  
see bigger brands being more focusing on it. As I mentioned, it is such a big market, not just for Muslim women. So that is one thing. Over the next 510, years, you are going to see more brands focusing and actually putting resources into this. Other than that, I definitely think you're going to be seeing more Muslim women in this industry, in the fashion industry,

Stuart Murray  35:41  
which is fantastic, because I think you know, the more women that start to see people like you. In other words, people that are Muslim, women that look like you, and they see themselves and say, Wow, here is somebody that looks like me, being part of a cultural change that is an opportunity for me to, you know, have a relationship and grow and be that kind of, that proud person that you are. And what you want to bring out in people is to get a sense of confidence and a sense of pride about who they are and how they shape the day. Just out of curiosity. Hafsa, what goes into your day when you're starting your day out? I mean, you're a designer, you're a creator, you're an entrepreneur, you're I mean, all of those elements. What's the typical day for? For Hafsa Alta,

Hafsa Altaf  36:26  
every day is different. Every day there's different challenges. Definitely, when you're a small business, you wear many hats. Though, every single day I'm working on many different things, and that's what I love about it. But I do definitely try to spend no matter how my day goes, I try spending some part of my day in the creative side, so I don't lose that such a big part of my brand is the art and the stories that help in my art on my clothing. So I always go back to my mission statement and why I started and having that creativity and keeping that alive. I focus on that? Yeah,

Stuart Murray  37:00  
well, and that's a lot. I mean, you know, there's a lot of creativity that's required, and and clarity have been extremely successful. You know, as we're kind of coming to the conclusion of the conversation, is there anything that I haven't asked you, that you would like to talk about in terms of what you're doing, what your role is, what your designs are about. Is there anything that you would like to share that I haven't asked you?

Hafsa Altaf  37:24  
I think you've done a very good job. So I don't really have anything to add there. I would just say that changes start with one person, and I've seen that the impact one person can make. So that is my goal. And what I really want to do is just have more people take chances, take that first step. And you know, do what you what you want to do. For me, the proudest moment in my life is that first step I took to pursue my passion. And I am so grateful every day that I was able to take that first step, and because of that, my experiences have helped me be in a place where I'm extremely proud of where I am professionally as well as my personal life. And that's what I think sometimes people don't understand. It's both. It's your professional and personal. I recently found the love of my life, and that wouldn't have happened if I didn't take that first step. So everything is connected. So that's why I really focus on helping women find their voices, their style, without compromising their values. And that is what my clothing and art does. And I really hope more women have the courage to follow their dreams, whatever that may look like, if it's small, whether it's just, you know, finding a connection with God, moving provinces to pursue an education, or even renovating your house, anything like taking that first step is still rewarding. Changes start with one person, and I hope, I hope more people do that.

Stuart Murray  38:56  
Well, you're clearly an inspiration and continue to be a leader and an entrepreneur in an area that is so much required in the world. And I just want to thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for what you're doing. And I certainly look forward to the opportunity to see some of your fashion on the street and more part of everyday, modern, modest wear. And at some point I may, you know, even if I see somebody that I know, I'd have to know them, but I'd be happy to go up to them and say, by chance, is that fashion by Hafsa that you're wearing? Because that would be a great thing. Saying, Look, I I know that person, and she's amazing. So Hafsa, thank you so much for being a guest on humans on rights. Thank you for sharing your journey to date, your experiences, and I wish you nothing but tremendous success in the future.

Hafsa Altaf  39:48  
Thank you so much, George, and what you're doing is incredible too. So thank you for that.

Stuart Murray  39:53  
All right. You take care and have a great summer. You too. Bye.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  39:57  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca. 

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