Darcy Ataman: Travel Safe

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One territory, the traditional territory of the Anishnawbe, Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota, and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray

Stuart Murray  0:30  
Darcy Ataman is the founder and CEO of Make Music Matter, an organization dedicated to bringing an alternate form of music therapy to survivors of conflict and trauma. He developed the innovative healing in harmony program in partnership with Nobel laureate Dr Dennis mcquaggy, and continues to scale the innovation which is currently running in 11 sites in eight countries around the world in 2019 Darcy co founded a for a records in publishing with legendary producer David bow, creating a groundbreaking publishing model for artists living in extreme poverty and conflict zones. Darcy graduated from the University of Manitoba with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology. He has worked internationally as a music producer, collaborating with countless artists and engineers, including Shelley yakas, Levon, Helm, DJ, Jazzy Jeff, resulting in several Juno nominations. Now in 2023 Darcy Ataman, in partnership with the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, launched the creative and intelligent exhibit. Ukrainian artists United this month, Darcy has curated his latest Thought provoking art installation entitled travel safe. Darcy ademan, welcome to humans on rights.

Darcy Ataman  1:55  
Thank you for having me

Stuart Murray  1:57  
tell us about this exhibit.

Darcy Ataman  2:00  
Oh, Travel Safe is meant to provoke your heart to then create empathy for the refugee crisis around the world that's growing. So the purpose of art, in my opinion, is sometimes to shock a little bit. So we want to shock and then pull you in and then do something with that energy. So the piece itself is, it's a representation of the tragic 2015 Alan Kurdi image that that we all remember, that went went viral, and it's being recreated in an impressionist way, using over 3000 shoes from refugees all over the world. At approximately 25 countries have participated in this plus it's lined with orange packbacks for the color of life vests. Each backpack has the little boy's last words stitched into it, and each backpack has an artifact from a refugee as well, with postcards that explain the significance of it.

Stuart Murray  2:57  
One of the things that I found very powerful when I looked at the exhibit is, and you mentioned this, that it is the photograph of Alan Kurdi. Am I saying that name right? A reminder that in 2015 this photograph of this young boy who drowned along with his mother and brother in the Mediterranean Sea while they were trying to reach Europe, was so significant, and it it really, at some point stopped the world, because it was so poignant and so real. And you wonder, you know, the Turkish photojournalist who took the photo, you kind of wonder what was going through his mind, because you know that this, this photo is going to be one of those incredible, iconic photos that will be remembered for all time. And in fact, you are taking it and using it in an art installation. But you wonder what was going through his mind when he took that, you know, you wonder if he was trying to, is there any way I can save this child, or is there anything that I can do? And I think so often photojournalist Darcy get in in these instances where, you know, the famous one of the the Vietnam picture of the young child who was being or the other, the individual, I think it was an adult, not a young child. The adult was being executed naked in the streets. And you wonder, is the photojournalist going to try and save that or capture that image. How did you take that photograph and decide that you were going to use shoes to recreate it in a two and a half story curated project or curated art installation? Well,

Darcy Ataman  4:35  
it's a sort of a confluence of factors. So the first being just the the raw inspiration which occurred in actually 2017 I was on the border Syria and Turkey one one evening, make music matter does work in Turkey and in Syria. And I was there doing the organizational work, and I was speaking to a group of. Uh, young young adults that had recently, I think, to some, just that evening fled, were able to cross the border from Syria into Turkey, and we're talking about their experience and the ongoing war. And during that conversation, one of them stopped me and said, No, no, no, you don't understand. We know you see the images every day on the news, and we know no one is coming to save us and why they understood perfectly the sad sort of geopolitical landscape that made it sadly impossible for boots to be on the ground there to do some real help. And that's been proven, proven correct. And it was quite heartbreaking. And I was in that moment that just it just kept sticking with me. And then fast forward, number of years later, been around the world in various conflict zones, professionally, seeing one shoe on the ground, always, no matter where I am, Eastern Congo, South Sudan, Ukraine, one shoe on the ground, and that's because people are literally fleeing for their lives. And if a sandal goes off, they have to keep going. So I thought of, sort of the visceral power that that symbol might have. I thought be a great idea to recreate that image. And tragically, it goes on. I was just without, not revealing too much, we have, you know, a staff member in Turkey who Syrian that was just, you know, recently heavily tortured that now we're trying to get out of the country. And part of that is because he's a refugee. And he only fled Syria because he was under threat, life threatening. You know, circumstances and all of that together, just made me want to do something for people to get sort of shocked into some empathy for the issue

Stuart Murray  6:49  
and Darcy. How was it that you know, through your, I'll just say, creative genius that you just you looked at what you just described, that that emotional conversation you had while you were on the border of of Syria, and decided that you were going to use this particular photograph of Alan Kurdi to recreate and curate an exhibit two and a half stories high using 3000 shoes that were obtained from refugees.

Darcy Ataman  7:18  
Yeah, it was quite the undertaking. And I wish I could give you a really poignant answer regarding that process, and I appreciate the the kind words there. The truth is, for these artistic projects that I do on the side, I'm not in control of the ideas. It's It sounds very odd, but they literally sort of beam into my head fully formed in about an instant. Sometimes I get a warning, or I feel a certain tingle on the top of my head, and I know something's coming in. And I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's true, and that's what happened with with this one. In January of this year, it literally I was walking out of my the gym that I go to through the vestibule. I touched one door, and I took two steps, and by time I got out the other side, the whole thing was in my head. It just appeared. And once it's in my head, I just have a compulsion to do it. It

Stuart Murray  8:18  
speaks volume. I mean, if anybody that is listening to this podcast doesn't know who you are. I mean, you know the the whole issue about make music matter, I would ask anybody who's listening that doesn't know who you are to go to their your website and sort of see some of the incredible things that you're doing around the world. In this particular case, you know the fact that this came to you so quickly? Did you see it Darcy as an art installation that was about shoes, and the photograph recreating it through the use of shoes? Yes,

Darcy Ataman  8:51  
yeah, honestly, quite, quite instantly, that way. So one

Stuart Murray  8:56  
of the things, of course, and I, you know, when you do the research, but in your own words, I think it's important for those that might be listening to say, you know, you didn't just go out and start a look at trying to find 3000 shoes of train from from refugees. How did you exchange, or what was the process of how you garnered these shoes from effigies to to ensure that there is authenticity to this exhibit. But how did you do? Did you do an exchange? Or, how is it that you had conversations with refugees and got their shoes that formed this installation?

Darcy Ataman  9:35  
Yeah, it was quite the undertaking. And all jokes aside, my my loft start to look like a hoarder after a while. Everything stored in here for a few months. But it's sort of a two pronged approach. I mean, one is just simply my my context throughout my humanitarian life. I just know a lot of people around the world in these areas and make music matters. Matters worked in these areas. So I just started to send message out to, you know, colleagues, partners, friends, of needing shoes. And then what I did a lot of the time was send money to replace them, because the only thing they had was their shoes, and then I'd pay for the shipping. And that happened a number of places all over the world, a lot of times, directly from camps themselves. And then the second piece of that to sort of fulfill the rest of the need was calling on the diaspora. In Winnipeg, a lot of amazing community based organizations here, like women for women in South Sudan, were incredible. And so there they went out to their community and and got lots of shoes as well from from when they came to Canada.

Stuart Murray  10:46  
So just on that, Darcy, I know that you, I mean, this is kind of your brainchild, your your creation. But as you just mentioned, some of the the diaspora that exists here in Winnipeg. Can you share who else you were involved with this project?

Darcy Ataman  11:02  
Well, people can go to travel safe, dot life if they want, and they will. They're able to get, first of all, resources and ways to take action. But it also then will list all of the coalition involved in this. So I know my answer is a bit long winded on it, but, but the point of it is to, again, shock and draw you in and then do something. So this coalition or giving those resources, so I've had a lot of help to to put this together. Again, Women for Women South Sudan, the local Congolese community based organizations, Manitoba, council for international cooperation are leading the charge on this. But we also have Mennonite Central Committee, the Canadian Council for refugees, World Vision, Canadian food grain banks, man so needs and, you know, graffiti art programming, it goes on and on and on.

Stuart Murray  11:57  
How did you come up with the name travel safe Darcy for this art installation.

Darcy Ataman  12:01  
It's simply because every time I would do a trip to Congo, which is sort of the even though I've been all over Africa, make music matter with Dr McCue, is primarily in eastern Congo. And I've done, I think, at least 40 trips there, every time I would go, inevitably, some friend would say, travel safe, right? And that's, that's where I came from. Was

Stuart Murray  12:28  
it difficult? This is kind of, I don't know who the artist was, if it was a graffiti or whoever to to actually, you know, you have to sort of almost stand on the other side of the street, because the installation is so large to really understand and get a sense of the power and the volume of it. How did, just practically, how did somebody use shoes then to recreate the photograph? Yeah,

Darcy Ataman  12:51  
that was myself and at times, a lot of amazing volunteers, even from Rotary. So the piece was divided basically in 18, 400 pound nets I spent, I believe, nine days, at least eight hours a day outside in my parking lot, drilling and zip tying shoes to these nets, along with volunteers. You know, it was at least 5000 zip ties were used. And then each time a net was done, I took it over to the graffiti Gallery, and then they had a system and a way to hoist the nets up and get them painted one by one and then numbered, and then put back on to the the structure once that was ready. So it honestly was a massive undertaking. Yeah, no. I

Stuart Murray  13:40  
mean, it has to be. I mean, you talk about 3000 shoes in a two and a half story curated art exhibit that is, you know, seen across the street because of the magnitude of it recreates a photograph. It just screams that there was a ton of people involved in this Darcy. Enormous

Darcy Ataman  14:00  
amount. I'm very thankful and and grateful. Yeah, you

Stuart Murray  14:05  
mentioned graffiti gallery. I mean Steve, Steve Wilson, who I know well, and as Do you, is really quite extraordinary in in what he does. And you know, it's such a great use of of the talent that he and his team have as well. I'm sure. Oh,

Darcy Ataman  14:20  
Steve, yeah, Steve and Pat Lazlo were nothing, but I can't say enough good things about them both. Quite honestly, yeah, words will never be able to make up for all that they've done. Is the truth,

Stuart Murray  14:31  
yeah, the the exhibit is there. I want to talk a little bit about kind of next steps for it, and then kind of delve a little bit into your thoughts and what you've seen about the whole issue around refugees. But the exhibit itself, travel safe is located here in Winnipeg, and it's just outside the Burton Cummings Theater, which is three. I think it's 363 64 Smith Street. And so it's there. But it's there for a limited time.

Darcy Ataman  15:01  
Yes, it's there until September 23 and then it'll be on Parliament Hill in Ottawa, October 2. Much like moving

Stuart Murray  15:11  
a rock and roll show, you're going to have to dismantle this two and a half story, 3000 foot art installation, crate it, travel it, and then reset it up when you, when you get it to Ottawa, which, again, is just for somebody like myself who's been the music industry. I understand the notion of how you take things down, and you know how the strike and how the how the setup goes. Have you got a team of people to help you on that as well?

Darcy Ataman  15:37  
I will, I mean, and, you know, I somewhat facetiously say that's a future problem, even though, come in quick, right? And you know, the truth is, even getting this one up, I was not certain how I was going to pull it off. And then, you know, the universe does conspire, and somehow, last minute, it all does happen. So I will continue down that path. But you're right, there's going to be some, you know, honestly, some repairs and touch ups done through it, and then getting to Ottawa. And then, without speaking too far out of turn, there's strong interest that should have confirmation this week, about then after parliament, hill to the National Arts Center in Ottawa. And then there's strong interest from UNHCR to put it as well, in headquarter, UN headquarters in New York, and or Geneva per period, yeah. So it's good. So there's going to be a lot of work in that, that regard,

Stuart Murray  16:33  
yeah, it's, I mean, and good for you, Darcy, for you know. I mean, as you say, when you start these projects you you know, the beginning, you're just not sure what the end is going to be. And this one, you know, hopefully has a very long life and ability to to travel. I i remember seeing, I'm pretty sure it was an exhibit that I we, we did, and it was just a series of life jackets, orange life jackets, I mean, and again, done in such volume that it becomes so powerful and and becomes very eerie in its in its in its presentation. And I wouldn't say that from my perspective, anybody that looks at your art installation Darcy of travel safe will pick up their own look and see and here's how I feel about this. I wouldn't say that I felt eerie. I was certainly drawn in and quite mesmerized and and really, you know, I reflected, because it's one of those moments in time when I realized the photograph and what it was representing. It brought me back to the day that I saw it in the in the newspaper, and the conversations that went around this whole viral photograph that was was taken of the young Alan Kurdi. So, you know, to recreate that in the fashion that you did. And it is something that I mean, you must feel satisfied that this incredible kind of creativity that you have has an outlet for others to see and experience. Yeah,

Darcy Ataman  18:10  
I'm I'm grateful for the outlet, because it is sort of relieves a pressure inside, especially when an idea like this comes to me, and where I just have almost no choice but to do it, because it just won't. It'll once it's in my head and under my skin. Until it's done, I can't stop thinking about it for good or, you know, good or bad, sure, sure. And it's, it's, yeah, it's really interesting. There's two points to that, honestly, is one a lot of people that worked on the piece. You know, we had architects and engineers and scaffolding people and the painters who touched up the shoes. You know, they were very emotional during during the process. And, you know, even I won't name names, but some people just seeing some of the artifacts as was putting it together, were in tears. And you know, I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing, but through my life of make music matter, I've built up such a muscle for this stuff at this point where I forget it's not the everyday of other people, so I don't get as affected that way. I'm not sure if that's good or not, but you know, my line is, if we don't believe in the news anymore, maybe we can believe in art. And the second part to your question is, it's I view it as skydiving, so I only skydive once. But it was interesting that, since you have nothing, there's no perspective when you're dropping, it isn't like you're falling and it's about the same thing. So I this is so large, and I'm so happy of the impact that it's having, because every time I pass by, there's a group of people looking at it and taking photos, for sure. Company every day, it's been really successful that is so otherworldly that I actually, I'll be honest, and I can't believe I'm saying this. I don't know how to feel about it. Even, even, sorry, even, last night, I was at a concert at the Burton Cummings theater, and there are groups of people asking, I can see them talking, and before the show and after the show, going back to it and examining it and taking photographs. And it's, it's so surreal for me that it's hard to have an impact.

Stuart Murray  20:29  
Yeah, Darcy, you know, that's thanks for sharing that I you know, this is your personal journey, and so, you know, I to reflect upon it as you just did. I appreciate, I appreciate your words and your time on it. You know when you talk about the fact that this is going to Ottawa, do you know where it's going to be positioned in Ottawa? Darcy?

Darcy Ataman  20:50  
Yeah, yes, it's the, it's center, I believe, center block on the west lawn. Okay, that's what we worked out because that has the the highest traffic of members of parliament and senators going going that day, and it's a Wednesday on purpose, when it's it's the most amount that will show up to caucus, right?

Stuart Murray  21:08  
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's a combination of of seeing kind of your federal government, representatives, bureaucrats, officials, but, you know, the public will also get a great opportunity, because, you know, there's a lot of people in the public that like to, you know, visit and tour the the parliament buildings in Ottawa. So that sounds great. And Darcy, just quickly, you said it's going to be there for how long,

Darcy Ataman  21:33  
just for the day, that's just a one day event. And then I think a few days the National Arts Center, if all goes according to

Stuart Murray  21:41  
plan, right? Wow. Okay, so big, big install and then, and then take down. And so the life of the exhibit goes Yes,

Darcy Ataman  21:50  
and then I'll have to see how this will be transported internationally if Geneva, you know, goes through as planned, and things like that. So,

Stuart Murray  21:58  
yeah, yeah, for sure. So, so So you know, Darcy, thanks for taking some time, you know, on this part of the podcast, just to talk about some of the creation that you went through, and the thought process and kind of putting this together, what it meant to you. Let's, let's talk a little bit about the fact that, you know, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees says that there's, I think it's, 117 point 3 million people in the world that are forcibly displaced. Now, not all of those are refugees, but 43 million of them are refugees and and as you've traveled around the world in in war torn and war zones and and areas that you've been able to bring back your your or bring to them, I should say maybe Darcy or creation through make music matter. What? What is it that you think, or you would like people to look at this, this art installation and and, and take away, with respect to, perhaps, their lack of understanding of some of the plight of refugees in the world? Yeah,

Darcy Ataman  22:59  
they it's, it's really simple, and actually it's in the artist statement. So if you go visit the piece, there's a side podium made of stained glass that has the artist statement. And in there there's a quote from a Somali poet who's now living as a refugee in the UK whistling Shire. And it perfectly sums up my feelings on this, and it's no one puts their children in the on a boat unless the water is safer than the land. And you know, that's what I would you know over dinner conversation, or what have you would would tell people for the last few years is that nobody's getting on a homemade raft trying to cross the ocean because they're having a good time, right? You know? And then the, you know, the other part of that, and then, and that's related to the art, is that we have to remember, and that's why we're using shoes, is that each one of those, the numbers that you stated, that's, each one's a person, each one's a person that had hopes and dreams. And not to be glib, but I guarantee you that was not the hopes and dreams of people to have their force to be flee their homeland. And the second piece of that is practical, because if you haven't, and I've seen this again, firsthand, countless times, especially throughout Africa, you have an unstable area that people are then tragically forced to flee. They inevitably will move into a neighboring country that is also unstable, and all that does is cause resentment and pressure, and those problems then sort of metastasize as a cancer throughout the throughout the continent. Quick Case in point to that is one of the areas we've worked in, and one of the areas I got shoes from, is a little town called Trujillo in Peru. It's a coastal town. The government set up these tiny, tiny sort of homes size of bathrooms made of concrete for local people in Peru that are. Are too poor. The local Peruvians said, not a chance for living in these places. So there it's this empty little shantytown. Word got out all the way to Venezuela on the sort of the military dictatorship that people are fleeing there, and people started to walk, sometimes two, three weeks at a time, from Venezuela into this little town, and now we're squatting in this in this area, and then that causes extra conflict between the two. And, you know, that's, that's, again, just another reason why we need to address these, these problems and these issues, you know, properly. There's no I've met a handful of the time of, you know, youth as young as 14, I remember sitting down with one young person who's 14, who walked three weeks on his own into this little town from Venezuela to check it out, get a place, walk back and go through the trials and tribulations and danger, to get his mother and then come back, you know, and it's just, it's, it's, it's heartbreaking, is the truth.

Stuart Murray  26:03  
I just want to sort of get your thoughts. Darcy, you've you you travel the world, uh, extensively, and through the incredible work that you've doing through your as as the founder and CEO of of make music matter, what sorts of things would you like to see, or I want to frame this in a way, because it's, it's a, it's a, it's a difficult question to answer. It's not a simple it's not a simple answer. In the sense of, how do you think we could look at being more putting more human elements with those people that are refugees, that are forced to flee their country. What are some of the measures that maybe you've either seen or talked to or have hoped that some people organizations, governments may look at to try to humanize this issue around refugees? And as you say, nobody wants to. I think, just to quote the the the art installation exhibit, nobody wants to get into raft, unless the on the water, unless the ground isn't safe. To

Darcy Ataman  27:08  
humanize, and then that turns into a actual practical aspect. To answer your question, is that while this issue is occurring, and conflict around the world, you know, continues, sadly, what I think a lot of people are are maybe not as aware of, is that the democratization of cell phone technology has really changed the game. So years ago, even when I started this work and going into the field, there was a separation. There was a bubble. You know, you'd go to these areas, I'd come back home to Winnipeg, and there was a communication separation and a bit of a safety net that regard that is gone now. The highest penetration rate for in the world for cell phones is Africa. You know, they have these cheap Pay As You Go cell phones. It's their entire life is on their phone. You know, banking, news, everything because of that, even if they're living under duress, even in a refugee camp under, you know, a plastic sheeting, they understand the equation of the world and their place in it on mass. And there's hundreds of millions of people that are getting angrier and anger, and I don't blame them, because they're living again under plastic sheeting and knowing they're suffering, and they know that suffering is benefiting us, and that is why, for example, kidnappings on aid workers is has been skyrocketing the last handful of years as well. So I think it's just a practical nature to understand that it's not just words anymore. There truly are no borders, and we need to start living in the world that way, that it's, you know, sovereignty is one thing, but it's, it's a global sovereignty at this point,

Stuart Murray  28:56  
right, right? You mentioned about kidnapping of, did you say kidnapping of health workers?

Darcy Ataman  29:03  
Yeah, of NGO aid workers that Yes, years ago, when I started that was almost, you know, you're almost untouchable in the in these areas. That is gone. Now it is, is changed quite a bit. And, you know, even, geez, I'm not sure if I can say this, but I probably I will anyway, it was a couple of years ago. Ago, there was the Italian Ambassador in Congo that was tragically killed, the first ambassador in a long time. And you know, it's all over CNN and the BBC, we were traveling in the same areas. At the same time, there's a bunch of ambassadors that that were in checking out projects, and I was with some of them. And to make a long story short, this the ambassador from Italy stayed longer I got his seat on the plane. That's the only way I got home, and then he ended up being tragic. Killed the next day, and I didn't realize I got a seat until, till I got home. But what that was was again, resentment and somebody inside the UN selling out where this Ambassador will be traveling and when, and, you know, put off the, you know, that I got firsthand information, the route that this person traveled on was supposed to have a tank escort. They call it a red zone, and he didn't. And it was literally $50 that information was sold for, and several lives lost because of that.

Stuart Murray  30:34  
Wow. From your perspective, do you feel Canada is pulling its weight in terms of how they deal with refugees.

Darcy Ataman  30:44  
I think we do a decent job of, at least promoting media wise that we do, but the reality is, no, I mean, it's as we know. This is a vast country with a lot of space, a lot of natural resources. Our birth rate is quite low. We need the influx. And it's just so far we we've done quite minimal. I forget the last statistic, but in terms of even Syrian refugees, it was quite low. I think it was like 15,000 or, you know, something so nominal that no one would even notice. That it's unfortunate, and the other part of that that's unfortunate that Canada is losing on is the resource, the resources that these refugees bring. I mean, number one, their resiliency is is incredible, and that's going to be a net benefit to society if they get the chance to work in a good system. The second is countries like Syria had, before the war, an amazing post secondary education system. You know, it was that country was doctors and dentists and, you know, again, it's a great benefit to Canada if we if we're able to process more, and we're simply not, and now it's politicized heavily.

Stuart Murray  32:00  
Yeah, yeah, you mentioned the word politicized. So let's just kind of peel that onion for a second. You know the people that would say, why would we allow more refugees into our country when we have our own folks who are barely making ends meet, who are living on the street, who are struggling, and we have those are kind of under our watch as Canadians. Why would we bring in refugees to add on top of that issue?

Darcy Ataman  32:28  
Yeah, because they're, they're, they're really two separate issues, and one does not affect the other too much. I can say I am a expert on the homeless, the the unhoused issue right now, which is is growing as well, but that is separately, and that's been growing because of, you know, the fentanyl drug use, which is primarily used by middle aged white men, and that has nothing to do with the fact that refugees are coming in to to to take, take jobs away. But you know, politics loves to conflate those two things, to try to other that, right? And again, it does come down to, there's just absolute I've seen it. I've met brilliant people and slums that should be coming in here, working in a system where their effort produces a result, and they may be the one that can solve that problem for

Stuart Murray  33:19  
us. Beautifully said, and I, I'm delighted to hear your words on it. I for a lot of times when these conversations come up and, you know, the question gets asked, Why do we bring more people? And how do we do that? I totally respect your view on it. Darcy, at some juncture, when we look at all of these issues, it comes down to what you so cleverly did when you created an exhibit that's made out of shoes, and people would look at that and see some of the materialism in how the art installation is created. But to your point, these are all shoes of humans, and so it's humanizing this issue. It's humanizing people who are refugees, as opposed to even using that term refugee. These are human beings seeking to live their life and make a contribution to the world, wherever that may be,

Darcy Ataman  34:10  
and and on the other side of that, the people coming in from from these different, you know, countries under duress, it buys us good. PR, you know, why create an enemy somewhere else in the world? Let us do our part, because, just in terms of, you know, the grand moralities of the universe, so to speak, maybe one day it'll be Canada that's in need and help, and we're going to be asking other people in the world to do the same for us. You know, we we forget that we were not always top in the world arbitrarily, and we were primarily because of post World War Two in the Marshall Plan and how that rebuild was set. And. Is starting to go away, and again, I just feel that it's easier to maintain friends than to deal with enemies later on. So

Stuart Murray  35:08  
Darcy, this is quite an achievement. Congratulations on on. You know, taking it from conceptualizing it as you did, as you explained at the top of the show to, you know, really putting something together that is very, very meaningful and raw in terms of the way that it goes, after the emotions. You know, you're, you're always kind of a million miles an hour guy. What else are you working on?

Darcy Ataman  35:41  
Thank you, Stuart, that that is true for good or ill. And sometimes I will lament why I'm a I do that, but I mean, first of all, make music matter continues to work around the world. We are now, thankfully, doing our part to serve indigenous communities in Canada with our healing and Harmony Program. So we're in Toronto and in northern Alberta, and working on trying to implement Saskatchewan as well on that. We continue to work in eastern Congo and in Turkey and Syria, and continue to try to find other ways to, you know, to scale around the world on that. And then artistically, the travel safe installation seems to be having growing interest almost daily. So, you know, again, hopefully those two Ottawa installations come to pass as planned, and then with the UN and then I'm planning to update Ukrainian artists united. I'm in talks with the history and war museum right now, for them to take it, I believe, starting February next year. Hopefully that's not talking a little out of school, but that is the plan so far. So I'm hoping to go back and update it, and I'm already talking to people there at the symphony in Kyiv to do some recording of them. And I think that'll be incredibly satisfying.

Stuart Murray  37:01  
Yeah, be amazing. And that, again, for those you know, that was such a great exhibit that you you put together that Ukrainian artists united, powerful, you know, again, using music. And I think it's been sort of said sometimes that, you know, sometimes what is the loudest voice? It can be music. It can be art. And you've been able to capture that in both of these installations Darcy, and it's really quite compelling.

Darcy Ataman  37:32  
Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Honestly, it is a despite the subject matter, it is an absolute joy for me to do. It is literally the funnest thing I can I can think of. And then I also sorry, I do have an extra little addition to Ukrainian artists united. I'm and and I'm bringing in artifacts from the front lines of the war, and I have some already of blown up materials and and pieces of shrapnel and tanks. And I will be creating something out of that as well.

Stuart Murray  38:02  
Yeah, I hope you're kind of keeping a running, you know, video log, if that's a word, Darcy of of your living room, because it seems like it's probably full of artifacts. And, you know, as you say, tank placements, shoes, different things that I'm sure it's probably quite a fascinating place to visit. Thank

Darcy Ataman  38:23  
you. It did start to produce odor at one point after having 3000 shoes crammed in, I bet Darcy.

Stuart Murray  38:32  
I just want to just sort of close out this podcast number one by thanking you, as always, for taking time to share your thoughts on humans, on rights. You know, you're, you're one of these kind of rare, amazing, creative creatures that we have, and you're a winnipegger. And so if I'm a homer for a minute, you know, I just want to say for the great things that you do for Winnipeg by putting us on the map as a place to launch, as you did with your Ukrainian artists United program, as you're doing with the travel safe art installation Winnipeg first and then to the world. I think it's a great message to talk about some of the great the great folks that we have in the City of Winnipeg who are passionate about human rights.

Darcy Ataman  39:17  
Well, thank you. I really appreciate that quite a bit, especially coming from you. I'm

Stuart Murray  39:21  
a big fan as you continue on your journey, on your human rights journey, your make music matters, journey, healing and harmony, all of the great things that you're doing, travel safe. Darcy ottoman,

Darcy Ataman  39:33  
thank you so much.

Matt Cundill  39:34  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode, humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmund. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca,

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  39:56  
produced and distributed by the sound off media company.