Devon Clunis: "ONE: A Story of Hope in Our Time"

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray  0:30  
My guest today on humans on rights is Devon clunas. I've been blessed to have other conversations on humans on rights with Devon and running into him at the launch of Black History Month, talked about something that he's always been very passionate about, which is leadership. And he's put pen to paper. He has written a book called one, which is a story of hope in our time. And although it is a personal story, there's so much more to it, and that's really what I want to talk to today. Devon, welcome to humans on rights.

Devon Clunis  1:04  
Thank you, Stuart, very happy to be here with you again.

Stuart Murray  1:06  
So, Devon, why a book? How did you come up with the title? And you know, just the importance, perhaps, of launching it during Black History Month?

Devon Clunis  1:15  
Yes, Stuart, I'm just going to be very open, very transparent here. I'm going to talk about things, and I want people to know very clearly. I even state this in the book. I'm not trying to tell people how to think, feel or believe. I'm just sharing my story, and I hope it's a story that really is for all of us, like you. Typically, I would spend the winters away, and last winter I was in Mexico and being woken up at really odd hours, hours that I never woke up at when I was chief of police, and I basically just said, like, God, what is it? What is it that you want me to do? And I've never been really satisfied about the current state of the world. And that's when this book just really started flowing out. It's about trying to build some unity, cohesion, back into society as a whole. And so the actual title of it came about. I was struggling with what should be the right title. It was last summer. It was August. I was preparing to go to Jamaica for my niece's wedding. And the way I live my life steward is daily. I will get up, I'll read a passage from the Bible. I'll see how it reflects on my life. And I was reading through John where, you know, Jesus is praying for His disciples, and He prayed that they would be one, and he just struck me, one. That's what I'm talking about. For the world. I would love for us to be one. And then you talk about, you know, as a passage, I said, God is love. And I said, if we really are loving it, although we may come from different backgrounds, ethnicity, religious and otherwise, if God is love, then we ought to be loving everyone. Doesn't matter what they believe or where they're coming from, and we should try to live as one. And then, you know, I went to Jamaica with a thought on my mind. And then I remember going on a tour, and the tour guide was talking about Jamaica and the various different ethnic backgrounds that people come from. And the Jamaican model is out of many one people. And I just asked the question. I said, Are you saying that the Jamaicans are actually trying to live the model? They go, yeah. And then the one gentleman says, the only you know, race that we have in Jamaica is on the track, meaning the race track, because we're all one. And then it just really solidified that for me, the title of this has to be one, because it really is all about of all of us trying to live as one. Stuart,

Stuart Murray  3:11  
yeah, and again, you know, a story of hope in our time, but what I'd love you to explain, Devon, because I know this took you a number of years to put together. You've been thinking about it for a long time this really is an incredible story of your personal journey, but you have brought it into being a story about the Winnipeg Police Service, about the City of Winnipeg, about the country of Canada. So share how you wove your personal story into a book that is all about that story of hope through your personal journey? Yeah,

Devon Clunis  3:41  
absolutely. Would love to do that. And you know, part of what I do is I do a lot of keynote speaking right across our country in the last two years, coming out of COVID, coming out of the effects of post George Floyd, I've just really sensed this strong current of division right across the country, you know, with stand on the stage and talk about things that a lot of people were thinking about, what nobody's saying publicly. And afterwards, people would sign up and said, Devon, we're feeling that, but no one is saying it right. The whole issue around dei and this is long before there was any elections in the south, I've been talking about this that we're not talking enough about unity in diversity. Like Canada is this incredibly diverse country, but we need to realize that diversity alone is not the solution. We need to be unified in that. And I just didn't feel the current path that we're on were leading us in that direction. And so I started thinking about my journey. I did not write this story because I want people to hear about Devon clunis, but I thought if I could use my journey in Canada as an immigrant arriving here in 1975 when we were not very diverse. You know, having risen to the position of being the first black chief of police in Canadian history. In policing that people typically say there should be division between police and community, and to be one of the first black officers hired in our city to become chief of police, 25 years later, I tell people clearly, it's not because Devon police was brilliant, it's because of the climate and the COVID. Culture that exists here in the city, in this country. And I'm not saying that we're perfect. I really want to stress that, but I think we're far more unified than what we hear typically. There's far more greater degree of allyship that's always been taking place. It's not a new idea. We talk too much about racism as opposed to the cohesion that we have. And I'm not saying let's discount or ignore any of those negative pieces. But I'm saying typically, what grows is what we continuously talk about and celebrate, and we don't do enough about talking about the great things that we have. As I said, not ignoring the negatives. We can deal with it. But Winnipeg is a great city, a fantastic city. Canada is a fantastic country, and I think there's a lot that's going right that we never celebrate. So

Stuart Murray  5:38  
this is a bit topical now. Devon, again, this podcast is not about politics, and I don't want to go there, but just would love your your initial reaction to the notion that there's a new president in the United States. He sort of floats the idea of Canada being the 51st state. You know, in my mind, it's, it's such a I mean, it's a non starter. But regardless, you know, for somebody like you that hears that. What's your kind of reaction when you kind of hear that kind of comment?

Devon Clunis  6:04  
And again, like you, I'm not a political animal. I work both in the US and our country. I've lived in both countries, they're distinctly different than we are. It is just a fact. And sometimes the average Canadian I might speak to will say, No, we're verse No, we're distinctly different. Let's realize that. And when I hear a commentary like that, it really doesn't bother me one way or another fatality, because I know who we are, and I know we are not the United States. And again, I'm not bashing the US, but we have to recognize who we are distinctly and celebrate that. And for someone to say that we can just be a state, it's not even in my universe. So I don't give a lot of time and energy to that. And I think, again, as I said, what we feed is what grows, and the amount of attention and time we're given to a commentary for someone like that, as opposed to saying this is who we are, and let's talk about who we are and celebrate who we are, and give more attention to that than this negativity. I think we're putting our time and energy in the wrong direction. I honestly do. Stuart, yeah,

Stuart Murray  6:55  
no, thanks for that. I agree, Devon, but I just thought I'd throw it out to get a reaction from you. So thanks for sharing, Devon, I have been in many events that whether you were Chief of Police or your current position, where you have spent a lot of time speaking, you're a passionate speaker. You believe very strongly in speaking. And one of the things that I think take away from the book that you've written, one a story of hope in our time, is how do we pull people out of isolation and talk about why that's important, and what you think through the book or through your speaking that will make a difference for people that

Devon Clunis  7:30  
is so critical. Because, as I said, the only thing that really grows in that state of isolation is fear, because we don't know one another, we don't understand one another. We see the country changing, but we don't understand the dynamics. And the only way that we're going to get to a place, a healthy place, is by doing what you and I are doing. Are having meaningful conversations in an environment where we're desiring and learning to understand, to know and to grow. I end each chapter of the book with three questions, and that was very intentional, first, just to get people to start doing a bit of introspective thinking. Yeah, how do I feel? How do I think about this? But then I say, Let's get together in even small groups and start talking about these things openly amongst ourselves, again, with a desire to learn, to grow to understand, not stepping into that conversation thinking my view is the right one. It's one. But maybe somebody will be able to change my view, or we might be able to learn from one another and come to a middle road, you know, a deeper, more meaningful understanding. Don't necessarily have to change your mind, but if I can help to see you as just another human being on this journey of life, that we're going to try to make this as cohesive and healthy as possible, that's where I really want us to go. And as I said, the last five years have been very difficult for all of us. COVID were isolated, the issue around George Floyd erupted, and there was no meaningful dialog. And my biggest fear is this, it's with the next generation who are not having the opportunity to have meaningful dialog, like we're setting ourselves up for a lot of real, deep emotional pain moving forward with all open door right now to meaningful discussions, and you

Stuart Murray  9:01  
spend a lot of time going even to talking to students. Devon, I know that's very part of your passion. Can you share some of the reactions that you're getting from people that you talk to about your book who you just want to, as you say, start this conversation and bring people out of isolation? Yeah, absolutely.

Devon Clunis  9:19  
I'm getting a lot of feedback already. People are telling me they really appreciate, for example, the questions, but just the thought process that it's taking us through, that I'm raising issues that everyone is feeling and they're thinking about, but they don't feel safe enough to have that conversation in a public arena. And that's what I'm hoping we can do with this. I can tell you, in the last two years, as I said, speaking across the country, there's two questions Stuart that I typically pose to the audience. The first is, how many of you are satisfied with the state of the world? I've posed this question to well over 16,000 Canadians and some Americans. Take a guess. How many people have said yes, they're satisfied. Sir, go

Stuart Murray  9:53  
ahead. Okay, so this is my podcast, Devon. I'm supposed to be asking the questions I know, but just curious. Okay? To a percentage wise, I'm going to go and say as high as 70% maybe are not as are not satisfied. Higher,

Devon Clunis  10:07  
over 16,000 people steward only six six have said they're satisfied. Really? Wow. That's amazing. So it tells you we're not in a good place. The second question is, how many are optimistic? And typically, maybe 5% of the people are optimistic. So I said, we have work to do. But here's what really alarmed me. I posed the same questions to a group of high schoolers. Not a single one was content with the state of the world. Not a single one was optimistic for the future. We have some work to do.

Stuart Murray  10:33  
Did you get a feeling when the youth that you're speaking to are saying that they're not satisfied? Do you get a sense that they're prepared to do something about it, or are they sort of giving a sense of, we're not sure what to do about it, or how do we go about it? What's your sort of takeaway from how do we do the maneuvering to encourage them that they have the opportunity to do such?

Devon Clunis  10:54  
Yes, the sense that I got was that they didn't know what to do about it. And so I say for us as adults, we have to be very careful, because somebody can come along with the wrong message, and because they're looking for something to grab a hold off, they will move in that direction. So we have a real serious responsibility to help lead them in the right direction, to show them that. And you know, I say in the book that the road is not just all filled with potholes and pitfalls. What I've found in this country is that, and I said, the road is actually quite well paved, and there's a lot of helpers along that journey who will help you. But if the message we're telling them is that somebody who shares, and I say shades of beautiful, I don't typically look black and white, your shade of beautiful is not looking out for me, all I'm going to see is the enemy. And that's not the case. So I want the kids to realize everybody on this journey, the vast majority are there to help you. And you know, it's like when you buy a new car, all of a sudden you're seeing that car everywhere. Well, if your eyes aren't open to the fact that everyone can be a helper to you, you won't see it. And I do not want to set our kids up with the mindset that the only person is going to help you, somebody who looks like you from your culture, from your religious background. No. Canada is this place where vast majority are looking out for one another. I have experienced that. I believe that it is the reality, but we don't talk enough about that. So

Stuart Murray  12:07  
when you look back Devon on your personal journey, which is sort of the theme, of which your book won a story of hope in our time, as you say, it's you don't want it to be about you, but you're simply using it as you're the catalyst to try to bring forward some of these ideas. How would you say that when you reflect back on your years in policing, and as we understand, as you said, that you were the first black chief of police in Canada, how did you reflect back on what you've learned that you were able to sort of put into your book? Oh,

Devon Clunis  12:39  
it is all about that. And I love that you use the word catalyst, because that's how I try to describe myself. When people say, who are you? What are you about? No, it's about being a catalyst. So remember, arrived here at age 11, almost 12, not a great deal of diversity. I'm not seeing a very positive representation of black people on television or the relationship between police and black people. So I said, I remember as a teenager, I made the decision, I'm going to do something to really make a difference change that social narrative or understanding when in a police and having never seen a black officer, but I realized the impact that policing has on society and on culture. It was about being that catalyst. My entire journey through the Winnipeg Police Service has been nothing I can tell you about positive if there were negative pieces. The way my mind works is that I'm focusing on the positive, and it really is. But as I said, when I look at the individuals who supported me along that journey, I go back to my high school coaches. And at the book launch, my high school coach, Bill wed Lake, I looked up and there he was buying a book. I had to come from behind the table and just hug that man so hard for so long, because really, he was like a father to so many of us. And I didn't know it was going to be there, but there he was. But I'm saying I've had so many individuals like that along my journey, and sure, not a single one of them shared my shade of beautiful. And I'm saying I was still able to be successful, that's what's in the city.

Stuart Murray  13:57  
Yeah, and Devon, you know, we've had many conversations. You know, I remember when you were Chief of Police, and I came to you, and I was saying that we're trying to put together this whole human rights education opportunity, and you know, we should, and I think I mentioned to you at the time, I said, you know, we should do a bit of a landscape across Canada to see what other communities are doing. And you very gently but very firmly, stopped me and said, you know, let's not look at what others are doing. Let's make this a made in Winnipeg solution. We can do this. We're unique, and it's how you've kind of brought your whole life's journey, whether it's professional or personal, to this conversation. And what are the things Devon you know, being a man who probably has had anti or, I should say, racist comments at some point, whether they're directly to you or you're aware of them. You know, that's just a reality. But what I believe is so incredible, and what is so incredible about you, Devon, is how positive you are. Where do you get that incredible, positive ability to not just as you say, it's not a matter. Are putting things underneath the carpet and not saying that they don't exist. They do exist, and you acknowledge that, but your positivity is quite evident and incredible. How is it that is part of your DNA?

Devon Clunis  15:12  
Yeah, and I like to say very clearly, it's not manufactured. It really is how I believe. But when I look back on my journey, as I said, you know, life has its ups and its downs. I'm a little boy from Jamaica. Grew up in a community with no electricity, no running water. Didn't know my mother for the first 11, almost 12 years of my life came here. She's working two jobs, but I had people step into my life, teachers, coaches along the journey. All I wanted was to have a job that made $30,000 a year. That's the way I thought. I thought I'd be great. I become a police officer at 23 I think the first year we're making 26 plus 1000. And I'm just I thought I had made it short. I was like, wow, you're here. Then I get promoted to my first promotion in 2002 at that point, I thought, Oh, wow, you've gone beyond what you ever dreamt. So fast forward another 10 years, your chief of police in this city, you're having the opportunity to impact people's lives on a daily basis. And yes, there are still struggles and there are challenges, but when I look at where I'm coming from, how can I be anything but incredibly thankful and feel that I'm an incredibly blessed individual? As I said, Life is not perfect. If we're looking for perfection, I think we've failed, but you have to look at your circumstances. So how could I not, everyday, get up and be thankful and celebrate when I look at where I'm coming from? So that that's a huge piece of it.

Stuart Murray  16:28  
Yeah, and you talk a lot about, you know, you wake up in the morning and you read a verse from the Bible. How long has that been a part of who Devon clunas is and, and when did that start? Okay,

Devon Clunis  16:39  
so I would take it all the way back to my grandparents, because my faith was definitely firmly established, because every Sunday we're in church, and so it's just seeping into you, whether you realize it consciously or not. When we arrived here in 1975 although my mother was working seven days a week, she made sure that we were in church. So church on Sunday school was just a regular Park, I would say it became something that was deeply personal. At age 2424 I got baptized. I said, this is how I'm going to live my life and understanding, you know, what my relationship is supposed to be with God. This is it. So every day, that's what I do, truly is. And as I said, you know, I became a police chaplain. This meant so much to me in 1998 when I was still a constable. But it's about me grounding myself. I've been my North Star. And the way I go out now and live that relationship out with God is how I treat people every single day. And as I said, it's not about a mission of trying to convert anyone. Nobody can tell you that brother did that, trying to say, Thou shalt live your life this way. But for me to live out my faith, the best way I can do that is how I treat everyone else, no matter where they're coming from, that is it for me? Yeah,

Stuart Murray  17:42  
and being the chief of police Devon and being in the Winnipeg Police Services, you know, some of the issues, some of the things you would have been exposed to, some of the things you would have seen that usually involve people against people physically, you know, sort of things that are happening. How did you see those things, and did it ever challenge your belief in God or your belief in what you read in the Bible? Well,

Devon Clunis  18:07  
I would tell you this probably the hardest thing I ever faced was this is before I became a police shop, and it was a beautiful, sunny day, and two young girls are walking home from a swimming pool, and a drunk driver at about 230 in the afternoon, mounted a curb and kill these two young girls. Steward and my daughters were young at the time, I was the lead investigator in a traffic division, and I did a great job at the scene, plotting this all out in my head and just seeing every step. And then I remember getting back to the NF station, and you know, the bad guy was still there, and the officers who were dealing with him came out and said, You know what, this guy doesn't care a thing about those young girls. All he's thinking about it was himself and literally Stuart. I saw in my head me walking into the interview room, pulling out my gun and putting two rounds into this person. Because I just and I said to my partner at the time, we have to leave the station right now. I did not know what was happening at the time, but I said, we have to leave. And we got into the cruiser car, and we just threw a round in total silence. I didn't know what was happening. End up the shift. We're working the evening shift, so at about 1am in the morning, we finish. I drive home. I went to check on my first daughter, she's okay, checked on my second daughter, she's okay. And I just start bawling, and I don't know what's happening, and I couldn't stop. Didn't want to disturb my wife, so I slept in the other bedroom. Woke up in the morning, they're away. I wake up, go to the bathroom, start just falling again. They're like, what's wrong with you? I don't know. Finally, my wife, thank God for her, said, This is not normal. I'm calling a pastor. Called her pastor. He came over, Devon, what's wrong? I explained to him what had happened last night, on how helpless I feel, but how much I was hurting for those families. And he simply said a couple of words that made all the difference to this day. Said, Devon, there are things you're going to see that you have no control over. You just have to give that to God. That's how I reconcile a lot of the things, sure that made no sense was I'm going to do what I can, but recognize some things I can't do a thing about. I just got to give that to God. That's how I dealt with those things that just made no sense from a human perspective.

Stuart Murray  19:58  
But what a great. Personal story, to be able to share, Devon, I'm not taking or throwing shade on anybody who says, you know, I read in a book about this thing, and I read in a book, or, you know, I talked to a friend, this is your personal story, and to be that open about it, and to, you know, act like a human being would act in that situation, especially a father of two daughters. You know, that's a tremendously powerful story to share. And when you're in front of people, yeah, I think it just draws them closer to you, Devon, about what it is that you are trying to share with people, which is this story of hope. And you know, as you go through with your book tour and all of that, I just as a side by the way, I know Bill wedlike. And you said I had to look up at him. A lot of people have to look up to Bill wedlike. It's a tall dude, right? But, you know, this is such a great opportunity, and gives you such a wonderful platform if you were to and I know you put questions at the end of each chapter, which is a really brilliant way to engage people. When you wrote the book, did you have a goal in mind? And say, you know, when I finished the book, and I want to ask you about the goal, but I also want to ask you, as an author, when you're writing, how did you know you were finished? But let's come back to what was your goal in writing the book? Yes, my

Devon Clunis  21:10  
goal, I think you touched on it earlier, was I really just wanted to, like, say, pull us out of the sense of isolation, just to start having conversation again. Because the way I see it right now is that we're on this train that's just on a rapidly moving towards the abyss, and nobody's willing to they see it. They're like, I don't want to be the one to pull the brakes. I'm like, somebody's got to pull the brakes, because I know we're not going a good direction. Everybody else on the train knows that we're not going in a good direction, but they're all afraid. And you know, I'm not saying I'm the bravest person here, but I've never been afraid to step out front. I said, Hey, I've never seen a black officer. You're going to do what? One of my biggest fears when I decided I was going to apply to police service was that people within the black community were going to Dishon me, because it's like you're going over to the other side. But I knew why I was doing it, because I wanted to build this bridge, this book. I know that not everyone will agree with everything I'm saying, but I'm not doing it to bring glory to Devon, I know it's going to be better for all of us, so that was my goal, just to get us to start reconnecting and seeing the humanity in each one of us. That's the start.

Stuart Murray  22:10  
Yeah, fantastic. And how did you know, Devon, that this is enough for this book? I've written the final chapter of this book. There are other books in you. You're an author. You've written other books. Isn't your first book. So how did you know that this was the time to say, let's press send on this thing to the publisher?

Devon Clunis  22:24  
That is a great question, sir. Again, we're very intentional about that. I said I didn't want it to be too long, because I know in the age in which we're living tension span, I wanted to do enough just to start to begin to perk people's interest. I've already said it's going to be a series. So it's going to be bite size. This is just the first step on the journey. So that's how I knew it was the end. I really wanted to, you know, launch it at the start of Black History Month. So of course, I'm watching the timeline, yeah, and that was part of my decision making process. But I did not want it to be so long that people will look at and say, No, I don't have time to pick that up. There's many people who've said, picked it up and read it just in a couple days. That's exactly what I want, and now you can start having conversations and be thinking about it. So yeah, that's how I knew.

Stuart Murray  23:07  
Yeah, perfect. You know, you mentioned numerous times in conversations, and of course, with relationship to this book Devon, that two people that have had and continue to have an incredible impact on who Devon clunas is. Your mother and your grandmother share those relationships and why they're so important to

Devon Clunis  23:24  
you? Oh, just beyond amazing, as I said, you know, I was raised by my grandparents. My mother was 18 years old, living in Kingston when I was born, and my grandmother and grandfather came and basically said, you know, you just too young to raise a child. So while you get yourself settled, they will take care of me. And once my mother got herself settled, believe it or not, I wrote in the book, she came back for her little boy is a Kingston, and I wanted no part of that. Said, I cried for so long I ended up in the hospital, till finally, the doctor said, you need to send him back to his grandmother. So I spent the first 11 years of my life with my grandparents, but my grandmother was like bedrock of it all for me, very closely connected with her. And I told you about church every Sunday, all of that, but one of the most beautiful things my grandmother did for me, my mother wasn't there, but she had a photo of my mom on the wall in their home. And every now and then my grandmother's story, she would take me to that photo. Point at it I look up to that's your mom. He sends money to take care of you. So already they had built this connection between my mother and I just knowing that it's like this angel on the wall who's actually taking care of me, even though my grandparents are the ones physically, you know, doing the job. And then when I came to live with my mother, yes, she was a stranger, but there was a connection that was built. And as I said, she's working seven days a week. She was very strict. Let me tell you, we couldn't leave the house without her knowing exactly where we were. But there was this admiration for this person who could have just stayed in Canada on her own send money to take care of her kids. Everybody would say she's a hero, but she did the hard thing. She brought her children single mom doing all that work, and I can tell you, throughout high school, I. Yes, growing up in the north end, lots of opportunities to go the wrong way, but I was determined that I was not going to let her down. That was my driving force, initially, to stay on the straight and narrow path. I will not let my mother down. But I can tell you, even today, Stuart, that thought still goes through my mind. I will never do anything to dishonor her, so she will always feel that her sacrifice was worth it absolutely. Yeah.

Stuart Murray  25:21  
And Devon, how was that impacted you as a father over your family and your daughters? Very

Devon Clunis  25:27  
much. So, you know, I can tell you, I have a very good relationship with my daughters, but wanting to be there for them. You know, again, I didn't grow up with a father in my life, and I talk about that, but I remember also as a teenager, yes, I want to do something to make a difference, but seeing my mother growing up without, you know, a father to help my I'm going to be there for my family no matter what. And so most definitely, seeing the commitment that she made to us, I wanted to carry that on for my daughters. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  25:54  
and I know you talk in the book about, you know, one of the issues, or one of the chapters around George Floyd, who, I think, profoundly changed the discourse in not only United States, but in Canada, maybe around the world. But you know, Devon I you know, from your perspective, you're a black man you want witness as the world witness this horrific treatment, this murder you know publicly of a black man by a white man, a police officer, and this notion around defunding the police and all of these conversations, what did that impact? Did that have on you as a former chief of police and particularly as a community leader who is a black man,

Devon Clunis  26:33  
yeah, that was such a painful time. Well, as I said, you know, I've been working both in the US and Canada. The end of 2019 we just finished a major project in a major city in the US, working with the police. So I know the mindset of the police in the US. And I said clearly what we were witnessing there, that does not represent all of the US police, not by any stretch of the imagination. But I remember sitting in my living room watching that situation unfold Stuart and I cried. I cried for several reasons. First, you know, as a black person, seeing that happening and recognizing that the color of that man skin had a lot to do with that, I was just tragic. As I said, it doesn't represent all of us police and so as a black person, I cried, but I can tell you, I was feeling at the same time for the police officers, because I knew what was coming. I knew the effect it was going to have on all police right across the US, but I also recognize the bleed over effect it was going to have on policing in Canada. And so I was really just hoping, I'm waiting for some police leader in either country to step up and decry what we're witnessing, but it wasn't coming. And then, believe it or not, the media started calling me, and I was hesitant initially, because Yvonne, you're no longer an active Chief of Police. Who are you to speak for the policing community? But as the silence just got louder, I thought, I have to say something, and so I started speaking, and I didn't shy away again from the difficult issues. I decried what we were seeing, but I said clearly, it does not represent all police officers, nor does it represent Canadian police. We're distinctly different. We're trained differently. We see our role as police officers quite differently, and so I really spoke to that. I challenged myself to be the catalyst to change, and I can tell you that was particularly the reason why I took on the role in Ontario to establish the Inspectorate of policing was because of what I saw happening in the aftermath of George Floyd. I said, so we need to set a new standard for excellence and really educate people what policing should be about, but how it's uniquely different in our country.

Stuart Murray  28:25  
And if somebody said to you that they were thinking of entering the police force, what advice would you give somebody, whether it's a male female, somebody who may actually just from a community Devon that is a bit under pressure these days, the Two Spirit of the LGBTQ community. What would you say to somebody if they asked you for advice about whether they should go into policing? First, I

Devon Clunis  28:48  
would ask them, okay, why is it that they want to go into policing? I told you my my reason was a deeper purpose beyond the job. It has to be a purpose. It has to be a calling. If you're just looking for another job, there probably lots of other occupations, but if you want to make a difference on a daily basis in community, feeling truly fulfilled, fulfilling your own purpose, policing is most definitely for you. What I'd also like to say to them is recognize that what we typically see on television, that's not what policing is all about, especially in the 21st century. It really is about making those connections being the catalyst to change. That's what even through my time as chief of police, that's why I really encourage our members to be and to do in the community, and they adopted that. But that is the future of policing. But I would say, yes, it is an incredible occupation, as I often say to folks, think about your community. For one hour without police, it would be absolute chaos. And so we need to know that the role that police officers play in society, in terms of a civil society, it is critically important, and that's what they get to bring to the table every day they they get the chance to touch a life every single day in policing, yeah.

Stuart Murray  29:53  
And I think that's, you know, again, what a great spokesperson for this, being you. I mean, you know, I. Suspect that when the media were contacting you the I'm not suggesting that they had hopes that you might give a different answer, but the answer you gave is very compelling. Devon, you know, the other thing you talk a lot about is mentorship. Why is that important? And how have you sort of structured your life to ensure that anybody that approaches you that they have the ability to be mentored by Devon clunas,

Devon Clunis  30:22  
yeah, mentorship is just so critical in this day and age. As I said, where everything is, people are getting so much information bite sized, not getting the whole story. You know, in my life, in my journey, mentorship was critical. I talked about, you know, the coaches that I had, but even in terms of going to church, you know, I remember being one of the youngest men in our men's group, for example, and I wanted to be around these older men, just so that I could learn, especially having not grown up with a father, and I saw the value that had in policing. You know, I had incredible mentors. One of the gentlemen I talk about and write about in the book is art standard, who, when I was a Inspector, he was my superintendent. When I was a superintendent, he was my deputy. He didn't want the Chiefs job, so now I become chief. I was never his boss, even at that stage, he was still mentoring me, and he's still there today. So that is so critically important for myself. You know, I've had the opportunity to mentor chiefs of police in the US, chiefs of police across our country, lower ranking members, and even today, I set myself up to be able to provide leadership training and development like right across our country. So I think mentorship is when you get to be my age, you know, we're getting older. We're saying, what value do you have? Well, we have learned so much, and we have experience. It's important that we now pass that on. That's our responsibility. That's the next phase. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  31:40  
you know. Well, said Devon, the other thing, I just wanted to kind of get your sense on, you know, when you know, always sort of come back to the name of the book, one, a story of hope in our time, and they, you know, somebody will see you at the podium, making a lecture or giving a, you know, a speech. You're talking about your book. You're talking about your personal journey, the fact that, you know, you started in a small village in Jamaica, no running water. I mean, all of those elements, and they look at you now, well, you're successful professional in the sense of being chief of police, your successful author. You're all the things that have come to Devon clunas, you know, there's this sexy spotlight on you to sort of say, Wow, you have really done amazing things. And a lot of times, people, you know, will say, if you can be anything you want if you want to be. And you know, you hear that from different athletes or different people that have kind of put that out there. And I mean, I love the expression Devon, but you know, it's for somebody who's struggling, for somebody to say, look, you can be whoever you want to be. Man, that is a leap and a half to try to figure that out? How do you try to convey that message to people? Because I know you believe it, and you are that, you are that, but you know it's not kind of a sentence. You can be whatever you want to be. How do you portray that? Or how are you portraying that to those people who may be looking up at you and sort of say, Yeah, easy for you to say, but you haven't walked in my shoes.

Devon Clunis  33:04  
Another great question, and the way I do that Stuart is this, I always love to tell, particularly kids about my first year in this country that I failed grade six. Like, think about being taken out of my culture, everything I understood, plucked into what really is an alien environment. And the first year I struggled. Didn't realize I was struggling until at the end of the year, them advising myself and my mother, he has failed. But then I told him about the two options that were put in front of me, we'll put your head into grade seven in a class for people they label as slow learners, or you have to repeat grade six. And the thoughts that went through my mind was this, oh, if I have to repeat grade six, I'm going to feel dumb. I'm going to be older. And I always tell people, I think this was my first real God moment, because which 12 year old boy we were thinking about this? But that's the right decision, because if you take the other path, it might be easier, but your future is going to be limited. And literally, that went through my mind at age 12, but my saving grace, and I talk about Miss Hannah, my grade six teacher. So you're a little boy, you're trying to make the right decision. But she said, If you come to school early next year, every day, Devon, I will be here, and I will help you. So I think anyone can see that hasn't always been easy, and as a child, he's making the decision to take the harder road. But I know tell kids, hey, might be a little bit harder at the start, but if you make this decision, you put in the time and the work, that's how I got to be where I'm at, and also I didn't do it on my own. None of this. Talk about Miss Hannah, who dedicated her time, and because of her, I became a top student, and talk about my coach, Bill wedley in high school. Yeah, I could have gone in a different direction, and talk about all my mentors in the police service. So I said, Yes, Devon, it's not because Devon Clunes is brilliant. It's because I've been fortunate to be in an environment and you're in the same environment, even better than I had it back then. So if I can do it, there are no limits to what you can achieve. That's how I position it for these young kids.

Stuart Murray  34:52  
Thanks for sharing. Um Devon, what's next for you on the on the book circuit? I know you've been traveling in Canada. Yeah, what's next for you on your journey to promote this incredible book that you've written? So

Devon Clunis  35:05  
we're heading to Toronto on Monday. I'm going to spend four or five days there. We're working with a company right now in the US in terms of taking itself, the ebook, the podcast, like we really have high hopes for this. And in May, I'm going to Western Canada, right across all the way to Vancouver, because, as I said, this is a story. It's about all of us, and when we get on the same page in terms of thinking and feeling and seeing one another in this positive light that we're talking about, my hope for this Stuart is that Winnipeg is going to be this beacon to the rest of the country. Our country is going to be a beacon to the rest of the world in terms of how we do community well, that we truly can live as one. You

Stuart Murray  35:42  
know, I know that politics is not part of your DNA, Devon, but, you know, I think your leadership and your message, your your powerful message of hope, you know, it resonates with people, and it's one of those elements. I mean, you know, they sort of talk about timing is everything when you are trying to promote something or get involved, I think your timing on this is spectacular. I think it's exactly where we need to be as a country. You know, people will look in the fact that, you know, Canada played the United States in hockey and we won again. You know, it's a moment in time we celebrate that. But you know your talk of hope and the structure and the ability to get people to sort of embrace that, and, you know, bring them into the conversation and make them feel that, you know, hope is not a word, it is an action. And so, you know, as you continue to do this, I would just say that I love Winnipeg also. I just find, you know, your view of Winnipeg is something that is, it has such a positive draw. You're like a magnet, you know when you talk about it. And I guess the question somebody might ask you say, from outside of Winnipeg? Wow, Devon, you're pretty high on Winnipeg. Why are you so in love with Winnipeg? Well,

Devon Clunis  36:54  
again, this is probably going to be the best part of our discussion today. So as I told you, my mother first arrived here early 70s, just as a visitor work for a family, her visa ran out. She was preparing to go back to Jamaica, not knowing what the future would hold, and the family said to her, well, Dorothy, when are you coming back? Well, I can't. I would need a sponsor right there. Stuart, that family said we're going to sponsor you. So she became a citizen. That's how she was able to bring us over. She always told us about this family. So again, I just had a love for this family in my heart, because I wouldn't be here. I get to be chief of police. I go to do a community event. I finished the event. I'm in my vehicle. I'm backing up, there's a knock on my window. It's an older woman. I roll the window down, and I actually close this the book with the story. She said, Is your mother? Dorothy Henry, like, how do you know my mother? She said, I know your mother just the way she said it. I knew I got out of my vehicle. I'm like, Are you the family that sponsored my mother? And even though I get a little bit emotional, said, yes, there she was, right. I just hugged her. And I'm like, I'm you're responsible for me being here. Story gets better. Stuart, now I published a book. I get a call from my mother said, Devon, you won't believe who just called me. It was the son from that family. So he saw the book, had found my mother's number, called my mother wanted me to contact him. Last week, I met this gentleman at the forks, and we sat and talked about our mothers. Is like your mother, I made such an impact on our family. He said he wouldn't be where he was if my mother hadn't been in his life, and I wouldn't be where I am if his mother hadn't been in our lives. That's why I love the city so much. Stuart,

Stuart Murray  38:32  
Yeah, no kidding. Wow, yeah. Thank you for sharing. I love that. Devon, you have done lots of interviews around your book. You know, the one thing I try to do with my guests. And again, thank you so much for taking time to be on humans, on rights. Is there any question that I haven't asked you that you'd say, can I just say this about the book, or can I just say this about something? And just because I've neglected to ask you that question,

Devon Clunis  38:57  
you know that that is fair, and I'm thinking about it right now, and what you and I have just discussed, especially with the final piece that we just shared, I think we've covered it, but I really appreciate this opportunity. Yeah, hey,

Stuart Murray  39:09  
listen, you know, I'm thrilled every time I walk in a room and I see you, and that's happened a couple of times just recently as we've both been in positions to celebrate the great community, the black history Manitoba group and the Black History Month. You know Devon, thank you for this. Good luck. God bless you. Know on your journey, particularly with your book, I love the fact that you're already teasing there's going to be potentially something else to follow. And trust me, I'll be following you very closely because I admire and appreciate what you're doing. So thanks for taking some time to talk to me on humans on rights. All the very, very best. Thank

Devon Clunis  39:44  
you, Stuart. Best to you as well.

Matt Cundill  39:47  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray social media. Marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company. You.