Lucille Bruce: President & CEO of End Homelessness Winnipeg

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One territory, the traditional territory of the Anishnawbe, Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota, and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

This is Humans, On Rights. A podcast advocating for the education of human rights.

Here's your host Stuart Murray.

My guest today is Lucille Bruce.

Lucille Bruce has deep roots, deep background in organizational change.

She was the executive director of Village Clinic, the interim chair of the Manitoba Urban Native Housing Association, and she was recognised for her work with the Mental Health Commission of Canada.

She's also established the infrastructure and partnerships to implement housing first, which is a best practise to improve the lives of people with histories of homelessness and mental health issues.

She now is the president and CEO of End Homelessness Winnipeg.

That is a deep background, deep roots and organisational change.

Welcome to humans on rights.

Lucille Bruce.

Thank you so much, Stuart.

I'm happy to be here.

So, Lucille, why are you so passionate about making people's lives better?

Um, it brings me to my roots.

I grew up in a very small matri community.

that is located an hour from Winnipeg, and I grew up in a family that was had 11 siblings, grew up in a community that also grounded me in my making culture.

Also growing up was exposed to some of the racism, although perhaps not personally directed at me because I'm not so visibly indigenous, but certainly directed at my cousins and my relatives growing up, particularly from, you know, in a community where it was very clear when we would do extra curricular activities and go out to different communities close by where we were visibly different and and called names.

Luckily, because I grew up in a community that was largely made tea, I also in some ways felt insulated from that type of racism within my own community.

I grew up very much being very strong in my roots and my culture, and also my my parents embedded in me a real sense of community and having to be part of it and and nurture relationships and caring and support for others who were perhaps a little bit more disadvantaged than we were, although we certainly grew up being very poor in my family.

But we were extremely loved and cared for.

We grew up with a sense of justice as well, understanding that if we had, we needed to share that with others.

And I think that's what brought me to where I am.

I basically struggled.

I was a single parent as well grew up experiencing a lot of barriers and and violence, and I quickly new as a single parent that education was key for me.

I'm pleased to say that my first job as a young woman that was very naive, that never really been exposed to the big city.

When I first came to the big city at the age of 18 and with Child, the Manitoba, maybe federation gave me my first job and again that also provided me with and insulated me also from experiencing a lot of potential racism in the workplace and all of that.

I was supported because, you know, I worked for the Manitoba Manatee Federation and again grew to understand the historical sort of impact that the Maiti people experienced in terms of the whole script process and the whole disenfranchisement and loss of of land.

So Lucy, let me just kind of back up for one second.

So you are living in a small community, 11 siblings in your So you've got a good family, which is great.

And it sounds like very grounded in love at some point.

It's not about the money, it's about the love and the home, and it sounds like that was amazing.

At what point did you think that you would have to leave that community to come to another?

In this case, it was Winnipeg.

Did that sort of Was there something that just made you make that decision?

How did you arrive in Winnipeg?

It was the fact that I I had my daughter at a very early age, and I knew if I were to be able to be successful and ensure that she didn't have a life of poverty, I had to move into the big city.

I had to be able to find a job to support myself and my daughter as well as pursuit education.

You know, it's tough enough for for people to, you know, trying to find what they want and what they're interested in from an educational standpoint.

But now you're a single parents single mother, um, with a daughter, and you're now looking at trying to get yourself educated.

How did you balance all of that?

It was extremely challenging, for sure.

Luckily, because I was working at the MMF at the time the Land Claims Commission, I had a supervisor who told me about a programme in Brandon that was offered to mature and an indigenous, mature students.

He brought that to my attention because he knew I wanted to pursue higher education.

He said he would support me through through that process, and I applied.

I was.

I succeeded in getting selected for that programme and, uh, the following year I started going into Brandon University to pursue a bachelor of nursing degree.

I actually ended up graduating with a degree in education at the University of Manitoba.

I did not continue the bachelor of nursing degree, but they offered to transfer me to University of Manitoba to pursue a bachelor of education.

And I want to share with you Stuart that growing up in a small Manti community, we had no role models at all because the majority of families there and my relatives were all poor.

We didn't have anybody to follow suit in terms of aiming for higher education or even for opportunities to become doctors, lawyers, Uh, and all of those kinds of careers.

What we saw growing up and what I saw as a woman, I could become a teacher or I could become a nurse or I could become a nun.

That was my reality and my world at the time when I was able to apply, you know, through that mature programme that was being offered through Brandon University.

Of course, I applied to become a nurse because that's what I knew, right?

And why did you switch from that to education?

It's interesting.

I learned pretty quick after my second year, and and that's when I was actually doing the clinical practise in a hospital, that nursing was not my twice.

I respected my coworkers and my my friends that I had made in terms of their choice to continue pursuing the nursing field.

But I felt I needed to really veer off into education, and that was my interest, really, to be an educator.

Then I was offered that opportunity to transfer at U of them, and it was not an easy decision for me to make because I knew that Brandon University versus University of Manitoba there was a huge difference there in terms of numbers of people who attend that university class sizes, and I was really worried that I would potentially get lost there.

But again, I was offered to transfer into the access programme at University of Manitoba, where again there was that wrap around support that was offered to me and I quickly adjusted and adapted and thrived in that environment.

And Lucille, at that point, are you sort of thinking that you're going to talk about some of the three elements?

Clearly, you're not going to be a nun at this point, and you've tried nursing.

And so you've got one option, which is to education.

Did you have a sense at that point when you made that switch to the University of Manitoba of what?

How you were going to use your degree in education?

Did you kind of have a path in your mind at that point or what?

What were you thinking at that time?

I wanted to work with adults, preferably, and when I graduated, I ended up with the opportunity to be hired at the Winnipeg Education Centre again, another programme that provided mature students from diverse cultural groups with an opportunity to obtain either a postsecondary degree in education or social work.

And interestingly, it was the social programme programme that hired me as a counsellor slash pre university prep instructor.

So I began to work there with adult students in the social work programme from diverse groups, uh, mainly mature students.

As I mentioned, I just absolutely loved my work and continued working there for three years until I was approached by then the executive director of Native Women's Transition Centre, Josie Hill.

And she's a well known, respected indigenous leader in in the Urban Indigenous Community who approached me to see if I would be willing to apply for a job to become the new executive director of Native Women's Transition Centre, which was a transitional house for women.

Indigenous women who had experienced all kinds of traumas, had experienced family violence in their lives, had lost their Children to the child welfare system, and we're struggling with a lot of issues, including some mental health and addiction issues.

So when she approached me to take on that job, I absolutely loved the work that I was doing at Winnipeg Education Centre Social Work programme.

When she approached me and spoke to me about this, I knew nothing about that organisation and what they did and the kind of work they did.

But after I hung up that phone, I remembered a dream that I had had.

The dream was very vivid to me.

I was walking through a path in the forest and someone came along and said, Oh, Lucille, don't go in that direction No, don't go there there And I said, Why not?

And they said, No, no, there's there's women there and I can't remember exactly.

But it was like It's not good there and I said, No, I'm going to walk there and I want to see for myself.

So I walked into that wooded forests and there was a clearing and suddenly I was surrounded by women.

I looked at the women and some of the women had sores on their arms, on their breast and on their hands, and I went up to one and I said, There is healing for that.

There's medicine for that and and so that dream came to me suddenly and I said, Okay, Creator, if this is where you want me to go, this is where I will go.

I submitted my resume and wouldn't you know it?

I was hired.

And Stuart, I stayed there as executive director of Native Women's Transition Centre for over 20 some years.

So now, Lucille, when you're looking at how you describe the dream, I mean, it's so vivid and it's pretty clear he gave you the right direction, Thank goodness.

But when you look at sort of your history, you talked about the fact that you come from a multi family, and that's sort of where your roots are.

Did any of that form your decision?

Was it important to you that you were working with other indigenous women in this particular case, or do did that matter to you at all?

I'm just trying to get a sense, you know how, how much you, because I think that's been the journey that you're on.

And when we talk about some of the things that you're currently working on, you've been very, very focused with your with your personal journey.

Yes, very much so.

It did.

It did bring home that this was the place I was meant to go, particularly because, as I said, the majority of the women coming to the transition centre were women who were first Nation and Maiti, who had multiple barriers who, many of whom were single parent moms like myself, many who had lost their Children to the child welfare system.

And we're struggling, you know, to to get their Children back and needed the support and the advocacy, you know, in order to to achieve their goals and also needed healing based on culturally relevant approaches.

I had begun my journey of understanding traditional ways of healing and ceremonies and practises already before I came to Native Women's Transition Centre, and it really grounded me in terms of the importance of how it is critically important when we're working with indigenous people to ensure that they have access to culturally relevant indigenous healing and practises.

That and that includes ceremonies.

It's important because of the whole historical trauma piece that has been experienced by by indigenous people in the last 150 years, Lucille, you know, you mentioned ceremony which you know is I've had a number of conversations with knowledge keepers and other people involved in in in traditional ceremony.

Is that something you learnt?

Or how did you come across or how did you How were you able to sort of be a part of that?

How did you find yourself being kind of in that I don't even want to choose the words because I want them to be your words, but that you would be part of ceremony helping these incredibly challenged women to be there for a life support for them.

It is something that I learned, but some of it was in eight in the bloodstream and in the in the blood.

Already they call, they call the blood memory.

And why I say that is because with me, there's been significant dreams that I've had, even as a young girl that, you know, as provided me with direction.

And I've trusted that, you know, throughout my growing up years.

And don't forget, I grew up in my community to where my, uh, father's and and my uncles and my relatives all practise traditional.

How can I say traditional living?

So they trapped, they hunted, we did things together.

So it was very land based kind of livelihood as well.

I grew up really very much being part of that outside environment to so there's a close connection there as well.

But when I started my work at Winnipeg Education Centre with the social work programme I met there an incredible Maiti woman, Uh, that was very much into the holistic, traditional ceremonial practises.

And she took me on as, uh, as a meant he and she brought me to ceremonies and she taught me about the traditional ways.

I'm quite honoured to say that I was named by her.

I have a traditional name and my traditional name is Mass Kiki.

Ma Hinggan, which is medicine?

Wolf Medicine.

Wolf?

Yes.

In what di electorate language would that be?

That is Cree.

Yes, and she was cream 80.

So she was an incredible mentor to me.

Her name was an charter and she was a professor of social work and she actually was the founding.

She founded the school of social work in Thompson And so she was my mentor.

I began to really grow into understanding that importance of rooted nous in understanding who I was and understanding how those ceremonies were critically important in assisting people to heal from their trauma.

So, Lucille, that that's a, um you think about the over 20 years being a part of that?

I mean, that's an emotional journey for you personally.

Clearly, I know just listening to you that you've had a tremendous positive impact on some of these women and how that's worked, and I mean, that has to be very, very satisfying.

And just as I said at the top of this conversation that you, you're somebody is very passionate about helping people.

When you look at that part of your life, which is a substantial time, how did that help you sort of move to the next phases of your of your career because you've developed many things, including the Housing first initiative, which, which is an important initiative, tell us a bit about that in my work at the Transition Centre.

As I mentioned, women came there and many of them were homeless.

Uh, they had lost their Children to the system.

And when you lose your Children to the system, the system then doesn't continue funding you for your home, right, so there's kind of a a real cycle.

Their women often lose their Children to the child welfare system.

Then they lose their income to maintain their home.

And then they can't get their Children back because they have no home suitable home right to get their Children back.

So there's a vicious, vicious cycle there.

And so I grew to understand the complexities of how systems imposed barriers on on women, a particularly indigenous women, and how we needed to look at advocating and changing those systems.

Because very often those systems we're creating inflows into homelessness again was approached by the Canadian Mental Health Association to become the coast site coordinator for the at Home She SWA five year research demonstration project that they were rolling out across five cities in Canada.

And Winnipeg, of course, was chosen as one of the sites because of the large indigenous population.

And so I was approached to be one of the co site mentor because of all of my experience.

So again, you know, I felt okay, Maybe this is timely, you know, I'm being approached here again to take on some very interesting, exciting and challenging work.

So I trusted again that this was the place where I was meant to be.

And and so I was hired as one of the co site coordinator on on this research demonstration project that looked at housing first as a new approach to addressing homelessness.

And it was a very simple approach, right, So you give somebody that's homeless a place to call home and you house them and provide wrap around support to maintain their housing stability.

And once they stabilise, then you begin to work based on their own sort of direction of where they want to go, whether it's to look for job training or whether it's to deal with maybe some addiction issues that they may be having.

But the first, most important thing is to provide them with a home to stabilise right and and then the team works with them on addressing the other issues that may be is keeping them sort of at risk of falling back into homeless.

But it's all driven by the person they lead that process.

So I was really super excited to be part of this, and in Winnipeg it quickly became apparent that if we were going to move in that direction and the housing and and the indigenous urban service providers had made it quite clear that it had to be indigenous.

Led Indigenous Services had to be part of that project if it was going to succeed in Winnipeg, and it was a really important decision to roll that out in Winnipeg because, as you know, 70% of the population who are homeless two thirds are indigenous in Winnipeg.

So the indigenous community quickly stepped up and say, You're not going to do this unless we are part of it And that was the reason why I was brought in also as a co site coordinator.

And it was also now the focus of who we would bring in to pilot housing first, because we wanted to make sure that we also integrated the whole indigenous cultural peace into the housing first model.

And we did that in winter.

So let me just interrupt you for one second, because I so just get a sense that of the five sites across Canada, Winnipeg would have its own uniqueness because of rolling it into sort of the indigenous community and having that leadership group being a part of the decision making process, correct?

Yes, the indigenous community clearly told the Mental Health Commission of Canada.

If you're going to roll this out, then it needs to be indigenous led with indigenous services.

The two pilot, this housing first and and so we did that.

We did that very well in Winnipeg.

And so, Lucille.

Now we're I'm imagining that this is now broadened from just women to include men and other members of community.

So is that Is that a fair assessment?

And how how did the whole housing first?

Um at home she swap project.

Wasn't women specific?

It was to address the needs of people who were chronically homeless and and so it was open to to all adults who were chronically homeless.

The important piece here was that the indigenous communities that we need to be part of this piloting it shouldn't be led by mainstream organisations.

It needs to be led by indigenous services in Winnipeg.

And so, Lucille, how would you say, Has it worked in how you envisioned it to work?

Or is it working and how you envision it to work?

I mean, it's obviously a process, and it's not something that's going to happen overnight, and I don't mean it that way.

But on the on your assessment are you Are you pleased with how things are starting to come together?

If I am pleased is my word not your word.

Maybe you could tell me how you feel about it.

Uh, in terms of the housing first programme.

Yeah, I can tell you stir that we are the only cities that continue supporting the three original housing first programme that we piloted under that at home she SWA research demonstration project.

We were the only city that continued supporting those three programmes which to me, was incredible because they were successful.

I mean, they were successful at housing people.

They were successful at keeping people house.

There was a lot of lessons learned along the way a lot of things that had to be changed in addressing, uh, the needs of people.

And but I think it was a huge success in Winnipeg and currently to date, there are, I believe, 10 housing first programmes that operate in Winnipeg that provides wrap around support, including youth housing services programmes.

They've changed considerably from the original sort of at home.

She swap project ones, but there continued to provide valuable supports to this day to youth as well as two adults who are experiencing chronic homelessness.

And so now, Lucille, you are currently the president and CEO of end Homelessness Winnipeg.

Tell me, how do those two programmes housing first and homelessness?

Winnipeg.

How How do those two programmes are they tied together?

Are they What?

Is there a big difference?

What?

Tell me about how those programmes have evolved or how do they work together?

I'm currently the CEO and president of and Homelessness went a pig and again I go back.

I was approached to take this on again Stewart.

So it seems like that's a path the way that I've approached my life and and trusted that I meant to go where I am needed when I took over as CEO of and Homelessness Winnipeg almost 3.5 years ago.

Now I was brought in and my role was to ensure that end homelessness.

Winnipeg provided leadership in implementing the 10 year plan, which is Winnipeg's plan to end homelessness.

We also were to provide backbone supports to assist or, uh, collective homelessness partners and stakeholders, uh, to coordinate services and and work on a common agenda from shifting from managing homelessness to ending it.

If I can say going back even for the last 15 years, the way that we were addressing homelessness in Winnipeg was very much from a management managing focus.

So what I mean by that is we were very focused on emergency responses, right needing more additional shelter space, needing to provide a lot more services.

And and it was not necessarily looking at the bigger picture and sort of focusing more on longer term solutions in terms of addressing homelessness.

And that is, by housing people right, giving people their own home and providing that wrap around support and service.

So people can be stable.

Lee house and they can continue functioning.

And they can continue sort of very healing journey and, you know, looking at reaching their full potential, whatever that may be.

And we really weren't looking also at the whole prevention side of things and not so critically important looking at the whole prevention side because, you know, the analogy that I can give there is, you know, if you have a river and a stream and you keep jumping people at this end, right and catching them at the top and the upstream and and trying to rescue them.

It's going to continue happening unless you deal with where you start off where the inflow is and stop that inflow.

And so we began now to do that work with our homelessness serving partner, and 15 years ago people were very much still working from a siloed approach and end Homelessness was established in 2000 and 15, and as part of our work in implementing the 10 year plan, we said we needed to work from a collaborative approach but also a collective impact approach, recognising that homelessness is very complex and that we needed to work together collectively as a community to address ending homelessness, which means we needed to work with all stakeholders, including all of our homelessness serving partners, including the three big shelters, as well as working with all three levels of government and private sector, getting them on board as well to work with us in addressing homelessness.

And that's looking at key priority areas, including the building of the housing supply, because we definitely don't have enough housing supply right now to meet the various needs of the people who are experiencing homelessness, particularly.

We need low barrier housing.

What do you mean by low barrier housing?

Lucy?

What I mean by low barrier housing is housing that will work from a harm reduction approach.

And it means that there's no requirements for people to be sober to live in that housing or to not be using drugs.

It's working from a harm reduction approach, and and so you house people.

You provide that wrap around team that works from that harm reduction trauma approach, and you ensure that you lessen the harm for people.

Uh, and and so that's critically important for people who are still using and struggling with addiction issues.

And how would you say, Lucille, when you look at sort of this 10 year plan, how would you say you're feeling that you're progressing along with the goal to end homelessness in Winnipeg?

How are you feeling about that?

I'm going to be very honest with you and say we are just at the starting phase of it.

Things are now beginning to change, and I think as I mentioned to you 15 years ago, people services were very much working in silos now, more recently particularly, I think, because of the pandemic end homelessness.

When when the pandemic hit in March and we went through a lockdown and homelessness, Winnipeg took on a coordinating role with all of our homelessness serving sector, as well as with public health and health and the other levels of government, the city and the province to coordinate a response and ensure that we were addressing the needs of people who were experiencing homelessness during this pandemic.

So we took on that coordinating role, and we also administer the federal funding for reaching home.

And that's the federal homelessness funding.

We now administer that funding, and as part of that, we also add to administer covid response funding that the federal government allocated for us to administer.

And we had to do that very quickly.

The first round, very early in, uh, in April, uh, we administered $2.7 million of covid response funding, and we work closely with our homelessness sector partners to end shelters to tell us where were the emerging needs?

What were the emerging needs?

What did we have to fund to be able to keep people who were homeless who are homeless and not house safe during this pandemic.

So we relied a lot on our partners to identify those emerging issues that we knew needed to be addressed, especially with the public health directive orders that were given during a code red, which meant that shelters now had to implement all of those physical distancing orders to keep people safe within those Congress did sites and and not meant a rejection of space, right?

And so then we had to also work with the province to fund other shelter space in order for the shelters to be able to provide overnight space for people had no homes.

And then I guess when you add on sort of the classic sort of prairie winter, we've got some pretty cold evenings and the cold absolutely.

And we had to look at that to which we were.

We were very grateful that we received a second round of covid response funding, and this time it was much more significant because they had predicted the second wave in the fall and we received.

I believe it was $7.9 million to administer to all of our our homelessness serving agencies that We're providing incredible services at this time to keep people safe, to ensure people had access to, uh to food, uh, to, uh, to ensure that, uh, the shelters and the services and access to PPE to continue providing services to people during this pandemic.

Having said all of this in our role coordinating this, we quickly learned that hey has a community.

We can really work together and look at what we can accomplish when we do work together in a collaborative wait, getting rid of our silos and sharing our knowledge, our wisdom and our our lessons learnt to ensure that we roll out and implement, uh, services to to house people during this pandemic and to keep people safe.

It was an incredible learning experience, I believe, uh, not just for him to homelessness, but for our sectors.

You know, that came together and worked so well and provided critical services during this time.

They did incredible work.

So, Lucille, one of the things when I asked you about where you felt things were along with this 10 year plan and you said You think we're just getting started?

I think that is, um really There's no surprise there.

People that write a 10 year plan.

I mean, they're they're doing it to the best information.

They have nobody thought about covid.

Nobody thought about some of these other elements.

And so you're kind of sharing with us how things have come together and it sounds like that it's a very, very, um, a much more cohesive, you know, people working together.

If I were to ask you what would be your most so far in terms of this journey that you're on as the president, CEO of end Homelessness Winnipeg What would be your proudest moment so far to date?

I think my proudest moment right now is the fact that we've now are working with over 69 agencies on various committees addressing various issues that will result in, I believe, moving forward on addressing homelessness in the next 4 to 5 years.

I believe that the community now is at a place where there they've come to understand that if we truly are going to address homelessness, then we we have to make that system transformation shift from managing to looking at ending it, which means we need to work at integrating the whole prevention aspects of that, stopping the inflow at the system level as well as changing our focus to housing people.

And and that's critically important.

I know currently that the shelters now are beginning to have those conversations how they're going to move people out of those shelters as quickly as possible and and house them.

So to me, that's a big step in the right direction.

The other piece that I'm very, uh, sort of passionate about and very pleased to share with you is that we have become an and indigenous and homelessness when a pig and we became established as an indigenous end.

Homelessness.

Winnipeg in the fall of 2000 and eight in 18.

This was done because we felt strongly if we were going to address address homelessness in Winnipeg, then we needed to become an indigenous and homelessness Winnipeg, and this is based on our principles as well as end homelessness.

Winnipeg We operate from truth and reconciliation principles from the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People and also from the inclusion of people that have lived experience of homelessness as well as living the experience of homelessness in everything that we do in all aspects of our work.

We believe that it's critically important that we include those voices and we engage with them because they have the answers and the solutions.

And one good example of that Steward is the village project that we're now have moved forward in partnership with six indigenous agencies in Winnipeg with Mama winched up leading that work in Winnipeg.

We've moved forward to establish the village project at Thunderbird House, and we're very excited about that initiative because it will establish 22 new low barrier units for people who are experiencing homelessness and are unsheltered.

And when we begin to look at that project and homelessness, Winnipeg began to to look at the possibility of creating a village project.

We we quickly went to an elder in Algiers council to consult with them.

We went to five indigenous partners to bring them on board because we wanted to ensure that they would lead that initiative and and they would operate that village project once it's established.

And we also did an engagement process last summer with the people living in the encampments and asked them for their input and feedback in the designing of that village project, and we learned a lot from them, uh, doing that engagement process.

So that speaks to how and homelessness Winnipeg is committed to ensuring that when we roll out initiatives, we ensure that we go back to the community and engage, engage with them and solicit their feedback and ensure that they lied that work.

And that's so critically important.

Important for sure.

And I would just say that one of the other parts of the UN declaration, of course, is that housing is also a human right.

And so that's another one of your guiding principle.

It's very much a guiding principle.

So, Lucille, there's so much more to cover, and we will do this again.

For sure.

I am so delighted to have spent some time learning from you.

Uh, the work that you do is is clearly incredible, and I was when before, before we started.

I did ask you if by chance your middle name was Sharon and you said Yes it is.

And the reason I ask that is because I found with a little bit of research that Lucille Bruce, who has worked with Winnipeg's indigenous population for more than 25 years as a resourceful, collaborative leader proven record of producing results in greatly admired for her dedication to ensuring community development.

And that shows that you were given the sovereign's Medal for volunteers by the Governor General of Canada.

Lucille, thank you for your time.

Thank you for what you do.

You are quiet, but you are a get it done kind of leader that we need for these challenges in Winnipeg.

And I can't thank you enough for your time today, and I can't thank you enough for what you do.

Well, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share a little bit with you.

Some of the work that incredible work that is being done in Winnipeg not just by end homelessness when a pig but I all of the services and, uh, you know, again, it goes back to our philosophy at end homelessness.

Uh, and it takes everybody, you know to to come together to collectively address homelessness in Winnipeg because it is so complex and and, you know, it's so important that all of those voices are brought to the table and including our three levels of government, that need to commit to this because, uh, unless we have a strong commitment to them, you know, to align with our goals as well.

Then we're going to keep struggling.

But I believe we're on our way.

And the community we need to follow the community's direction.

Right?

And it sounds to me like you're doing that.

And it sounds to me like there is a there is a mountain to climb here.

But you're well on your way, Lucille.

And again, Thank you for what you do.

And thank you for sharing some time with me.

Thank you.

Humans on Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray Social Media Marketing by the Creative Team at Full current and Winnipeg Thanks also to trick Seem a Bit YOU in Music by Doug Edmund For more, go to human rights hub dot c A production of the Sound Off Media company Hi, I'm Matt Kendall, host of the Sound Off Podcast.

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