Molly McCracken: Rectifying Manitoba’s Pay Gap

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray  0:31  
a discrimination and inequality persist in Manitoba, with women earning on average 71% of what men earn now, a very detailed research paper produced by the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives Manitoba called tired of waiting, rectifying manitoba's Pay Gap is available for everyone to read, and I absolutely advocate that you should all read this incredibly piece of work. But to talk about this in depth, well researched and well written document is the Manitoba director of the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives. Molly. McCracken Molly, welcome to humans on rights.

Unknown Speaker  1:17  
Thanks so much for having me

Stuart Murray  1:19  
so Molly is, I said, the Manitoba director for the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives. She's had 17 years of experience in research manager and an advisor in various social and economic policy areas. She's a member of the Climate Action Team Manitoba, the Equal Pay Day Manitoba coalition, chair of the Provincial Committee of Make Poverty History Manitoba and a member of the Manitoba Research Alliance, Molly, you're very active and you're very involved. So thank you for all the work you do. But perhaps I could ask a little bit about your background. How is it that somebody like Molly McCracken got so involved and so invested in some of these issues that are important to you. What's your background? Are you? Amanda Tobin, yes. And

Speaker 1  2:03  
I was raised here in Riverview in Winnipeg, treaty one territory. And I was raised by a single mother, Melinda McCracken, who was a journalist and artist, and she raised me with strong values of fairness, feminist values. I also had a very strong grandmother, Edith, who was raised with the kind of social gospel ideas of the United Church, you know, do unto others and the golden rule and that kind of thing. And, yeah. So when I went to university, I took a women's studies course, and that was an aha moment for me, where I began to understand that my mother's struggles to pay the rent, you know, to make a go of it as a single mom, were connected to bigger struggles of women locally and across the globe. And then I also took Sociology at the University of Winnipeg and learned about broader struggles of you know, and my privilege as a white woman, as an able bodied woman, but I wanted to be part of the solution, so I did a Master's of Public Policy and Administration from Carleton University. I wanted to get some experience outside of Manitoba and be a part of what could be done to make change, positive change in our society. And then I came back home to Winnipeg to work, and have worked inside and outside of government, in nonprofits, and feel very privileged to work with some incredible community and academic experts at the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives. Now that's

Stuart Murray  3:44  
fantastic. And Carlton, of course, is kind of renowned for its MPa. I agree. So yeah, good for you. And you know, obviously, thank you for coming home back to Manitoba, which is always sometimes people wonder if they're ever going to make the journey back. But you did so Molly, with your background, and you know, sort of how you saw the world as a young woman growing up in a professional Was there something you did before you joined the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives in Manitoba? Well,

Speaker 1  4:13  
my first professional job was at a place called the prairie Women's Health Center of Excellence, and we did research on Social Determinants of Health as it relates to women. A report I did there was on women in housing, and it was a comparative study of women in private housing, Co Op housing and public housing and their life outcomes. And that got the attention of the government at the time, this was in the mid 2000s and so that was really interesting experience to me, because there was a government at the time that was interested in those issues. And then from that, I had a job offer to work inside government to help with some of the affordable housing initiatives that were being introduced at that time. But then. I was not entirely happy. I couldn't quite settle down, so I actually went and volunteered in Uganda for a little while, and I just saw what a difference not having a social welfare system had, you know, people are really light, hand to mouth in countries in Uganda and other countries in Africa, and lots of public services we take for granted, like garbage collection, for example, didn't exist there. So I also felt that, you know, international development wasn't for me, that I should do the work in my own home community. So yeah, I came back. And then actually, as it relates to pay equity, it was during the pandemic that we really began to see the impacts on women and racialized people who were on the front lines of the service industries that were first let go when the shutdowns happened, and so we were thinking at CCPA, and particularly as somebody who's passionate about gender equity, what's needed in order to make changes. So that's kind of a leap to where I came from, to the subject matter today, that there is a kind of a long standing connection with feeling of rights and equality and what can actually be done to to address the problems that we

Stuart Murray  6:15  
see. For sure, Molly and I always sort of say to you know, my guests, I know that it's just something that's natural rolls out the tongue, but acronyms, CCPA, Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives. So yeah, let's, let's dive into to this research piece that was done, tired of waiting, rectifying Manitoba pay gap in very sort of simplest terms, if you could do such, is there a definition of pay gap? Well,

Speaker 1  6:41  
the pay gap is the difference in income between men and women. And I say men and women with an asterisk, because we recognize that there's people who are gender diverse, who identify in different ways. And we also say, you know, we need to address that in terms of the data. But the data that we have is from Statistics Canada, and it was analyzed by Jesse Hager, who's a Professor in Economics and Labor Studies at the University of Manitoba. And so the average incomes comparative of men and women in Manitoba means that for every dollar a man makes women earn 71 cents, and that stat has not changed in a very long time, and that's why this report became titled, tired of waiting, because manitoul was once a leader. We were the first province to have pay equity legislation in 1985 but it simply has not been updated in a long time, and the pandemic kind of woke us up again to create the need for action, because we know shocks like a pandemic can have very negative effects on women's economic and social status.

Stuart Murray  7:53  
Great information there. Molly and again, the last thing I want to do is sound like an expert. I'm simply taking what you're the authors of this document put in place, which is that, I think it was 1985 you said that the Pay Equity Act came in, which was around the same time that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms was introduced to Canada. But I think you know, one of the things that I took from the research on the paper was that Manitoba pay equity legislation has not been updated, I think, in 35 years. So again, not to oversimplify, because it's, I know it's a it's a complicated conversation, but you which, really frankly, you might be saying it's not complicated at all, just get it right, which I agree with. But why in 35 years has Manitoba just kind of fallen behind in your opinion. Yeah, good

Speaker 1  8:43  
question, and maybe I should, since we're talking about the authors, there's just as an aside, I should acknowledge the incredible work on the tired of waiting report. Anna Evans Boudreau is a law student who was the lead author. Oyenda alaka did some focus groups for that project. Dr Lorna Turnbull in Department of Law, University of Manitoba, Jessie Hager, who I mentioned, Natalie dondelo, who is a ma student with Jesse and Christine Barr, who's a lawyer for CUPE Manitoba. So I think what happened is that the feminist movement across Canada is working really hard on a number of fronts. And from, you know, Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, we're a research institute, and where we see progress on policy areas is when civil society is mobilized and organized in terms of coalitions and movements to press governments for action, and that often can take many, many years, and we haven't had the civil society feminist movement here together to push and hold governments to account. So that's what we're doing now with Equal Pay Day, which is the day into the very next year where. Whereby women have to work to earn the same as men in one year. So I think it's 460 days that man to woman would have to work about April 4 to earn the same of what a man to a man would earn in one year. So by acknowledging equal payday every year, we just started this past April, we're trying to build back up that awareness, that education and to, you know, press the Manitoba government to update this legislation. We did also some polling with probe research. The Manitoba Federation of Labor commissioned probe research, and there's a huge amount of support. I mean, I think people might not either know or be aware of this issue, or, you know, they might have heard of it a long time ago and thought, Oh, well, we no longer have discrimination, right, overt discrimination in terms of pay. Well, there still is that, but it's the systemic challenges that are barriers to pay equity that is equal pay for work of equal value that needs addressing. But so why? That's why we need to update the legislation. And so, yeah, that's what we're doing here. I should note that when Malaya Marcelino, who's the current Minister of Labor, under whose portfolio, this is when it's in opposition, she had a private member's bill on pay transparency. So pay transparency is simply that employers would have to post what they are going to pay people when they're hiring and also internally, so it eliminates pay secrecy. So pay transparency, and we are happy she brought that in the report is, you know, gives a critique of it as well. It needs to apply to most employers, for example, not just large employers, but that's a step. That's part of pay equity. Pay Equity is a bigger conversation.

Stuart Murray  11:50  
Yeah. You know, I try in this podcast not to talk about political parties, per se. I only say that because if you look over the fact that 35 years, we've had different governments in Manitoba. So you you kind of wonder, is it a partisan issue? Is it a policy issue? Because on the surface of it, and I can't imagine you were surprised by some of the research that pro polling came back with, I should say. But who wouldn't think that equal pay for equal rights is is not something that in 2024 we should even be having a conversation about.

Speaker 1  12:23  
Yeah, exactly. I completely agree. It's evidence based, and it's simply fairness. I was noting that that's the most recent activity legislation wise that Manitoba seen, is that private member's bill, but it was not passed, and so now we're needing to do more work to educate political decision makers of the importance of this, and it is a matter of substantive equality and social and economic rights. We know Manitoba had very high child poverty rates. Those are related to female headed households who are below the poverty line. And so pay equity addresses women's lower economic status by saying, you know, if you are a nurse compared to an electrician, female dominated job class would be the nurse, or even, say, for example, a lower paid work, like early childhood educator, compared to somebody with equal responsibility, that because of women's gendered care responsibilities, those jobs are often paid less those job classes, and so they need to be paid at a higher rate. So updated pay equity legislation would create a process for that. Currently, the pay equity legislation in Manitoba only applies to the public sector. So public sector pay inequality, you know, people who work for government, or crowns, for example, is much lower because there's a process whereby they review the pay between job classes and other aspects. But in the private sector, that's where the attention is needed in particular. The other thing that I think it's good to note is that the federal government brought in pay equity legislation for all federally regulated sectors, and people who work for ministers, that sort of thing, for MPs, I mean, and so that just went into force in 2021 it was passed in 2018 so that also, you know, is an example we can look to of successful legislation that creates the process for employers to then review the pay and pay equity Commissioner, who people have to report to, and then follows up, and also Somewhere where complaints can be placed with so

Stuart Murray  14:42  
Molly, you know, you mentioned that there was a private member's bill that was brought in, the pay Transparency Act that died on the order paper, presumably, now, hopefully with, you know, the change in government there may, that may find itself again as part of the discussion and come forward. But what sort of roadblock? What sorts of pushback is part of these conversations where you're really fighting for equality through your experience? Can you just share where people sort of say, well, you know, we can't do it because of this, or we can't do that because it has an impact on this. Can you just share with some of the reasons that people would push back against something that is all about equality?

Speaker 1  15:20  
Yeah, when we had the pay equity day, Equal Pay Day back in April, we had Jan Simpson, who's the head of the Canadian union of postal workers, come and speak, and so she talked about a win that postal workers had recently because the rural and suburban male carriers were represented by CAP W, but their pay rates were much lower than the urban carriers, and more of those rural workers were women, and so they had to go through a process with Canada Post to negotiate that and had a positive settlement that won higher wages For the rural and suburban male carriers who were female dominated. And so they won, but it was a fight, and what I saw that they had to struggle with was that there was a profit being made by Canada Post because they were paying lower wages to the female dominated job class. And so they had to use legal mechanisms, and those legal mechanisms were in place through collective bargaining to win those wage gains for those workers. And so that is a win for the workers and all of society, because if people have higher earnings, particularly women, then we know they share those with their families and their children do better and everything else. We have less poverty among senior women, for example, because there's inequities in terms of pension benefits for men and women, if women are earning lower wages throughout their lifetimes and things like that. So you know, that would be the first one in my mind, that people would be concerned about the price of this. However, it is a human right. It's a right to substantive equality that's guaranteed in the charter, and so it'll also have huge economic benefits for all of our society by moving on it. So we just need to keep researching and educating people about what the benefits are of pay equity.

Stuart Murray  17:20  
So Molly, just to sort of come back to the example you gave, the postal carriers in rural settings versus the urban. And as you just said, that most of the carriers in rural Manitoba were women, so they were making a lower wage than the urban postal carriers. Would that be the same for the men? Is it postal workers period? Or were there male postal workers rural, female postal workers rural, that also had discrepancies in what they might have been paid?

Speaker 1  17:50  
Yes, it's my understanding as well. These were also the rural were contract workers versus employees. So when they became employees, they came in at a lower rate. So it was a bit more complicated than just pay discrepancy. It was how they came into becoming employees at Canada Post,

Stuart Murray  18:10  
yeah. And, I mean, you know, look at, there's lots of negotiations that go on, and I can respect and understand that. And so, you know, I mean, really, what it comes back down to is, is what, you know, you basically are advocating for through the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, Manitoba is rectifying Manitoba pay gap. So on that basis, Molly, does it really have to be done, from your perspective, through legislation? Is there any other ways that this might take place? For example, is there anything through research that you've shown in other countries, in other jurisdictions, that they've been able to close the pay gap successfully by using different methods than, say, legislation?

Speaker 1  18:50  
Well, certainly any employer can do a process to review the job classes of their employees and look at female dominated versus male dominated. And I say that with the asterisks, that those are the categories we use because of our stats. Can data, but recognizing there's gender diverse people as well. And so, you know, any employer could do that and review those, and there are consultants out there who will help employers do that and then do a process whereby they ensure that female dominated job classes are being paid for work for equal value as male dominated. But it's shown that unless there is legislation, that employers will not do that. It's, you know, would take a pretty special employer to take that step. And Ontario and Quebec have had this legislation that applies to the private and public sector for what, quite a while with the pay equity Commissioner, and certainly have seen some wins for workers there for employees. So we, you know, I can't speak. International examples. I don't have that research, but given what we see here in Manitoba that we have this persistent pay gap that hasn't changed in many years, and we have a very old legislation, it just points to the fact that our legislation isn't working, and it needs to get updated with

Stuart Murray  20:17  
this document that you have produced. You know, hopefully it'll start the conversation and start people mobilizing and understanding, how can they affect change, and how can they support what's happening? And just on that basis, if somebody was listening to this podcast, Molly and said, What can I do to help to advance this conversation, to advance the notion that we want to close that pay gap. What advice would you give them?

Speaker 1  20:43  
Well, they can contact me, molly@policyelterns.ca to get involved for equal pay day next April. I also would say they could, you know, get educated and write into their representative, including the Minister of Labor and the critic to say, you know, this is a concern to me. And I should note, maybe on an aside, that this is not just gender, it's also race. And so we do see a very, a much wider pay gap amongst Indigenous women at 58 cents on the dollar for a white man versus women of color at 59 cents. So, you know, there's other issues of racial equality that people could raise with their elected representatives as well, and other groups that you're involved in. I was privileged to take part in a day on Pay Equity at the Congress of black women of Winnipeg, and this was a huge issue for them, and it was a practical issue. They're just saying, you know, we want to have good wages and make sure, if we're going to school, that our education will pay off, and we'll make sure we get a fair wage. And so I think different cultural groups could also be raising it as well.

Stuart Murray  21:55  
In your document, rectifying Manitoba pay gap, you go through a number of areas, like industry, education, age, racialized states, indigenous identities. Is there anything that stood out to you in those analysis Molly, that you'd like to share?

Speaker 1  22:12  
Well, yeah, it just reminds me, because you know, in my where I sit, I'm very lucky. I have a good job. I got to have a good education, but the inequality of income, I'm just pulling it up here that there's many more women who are below the poverty line than men in Manitoba, and many more men earning over $100,000 a year than women in Manitoba. And we don't often talk like that, because I think, you know, it can be uncomfortable, but these are conversations that are important to have in this data, and this report shows it's almost like the more you go up the income spectrum, women and men are fairly similar in the $40,000 to $50,000 range, but there's less women earning above that amount as you go up the income scale. And so what does that mean for our society? What does that mean for opportunities and for people's abilities to provide for their families? And you know, Manitoba also has some other very concerning indicators. For example, we have high, very high rates of domestic violence, and if you do not have the economic resources to escape domestic violence, you know, to get to a shelter, to move from a shelter to housing, then that makes women very vulnerable. So it relates to many other issues that are very important for equality and equal opportunity in Manitoba and just simply dignity

Stuart Murray  23:42  
on that basis. Molly, there's a lot of conversation around education and what that has to do with the ability for income earning. I'd be interested in the notion of childcare. Women who, you know, leave the workforce to raise doesn't matter. Could be a child or children, but leave the workforce to raise children and then want to enter back into the workforce. I know what the answer is, is that they've they fall further behind. But have you, have you seen or have you done research on that part of it? Molly to say, here's some ideas, or some thoughts, some concepts, whatever it may be that would allow, if the woman so chooses, to come back into the workforce, it's her choice, but that she's not penalized? Yes,

Speaker 1  24:27  
absolutely. Well, and we've seen when you know a two parent family makes a choice of who's going to stay home and take care of the kid and who's going to go to work, it's the lower earning parent, usually that stays home, and most often that's the woman, although it's not always the woman. So just wanted to note that, but the $10 a day Child Care Agreement that was brought in several years ago is huge. You know, the child care research and advocacy sector was very happy to see that. It's a long time. Coming. Most OECD countries do have a public child care system. We're not there yet on the system because CCPA, Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives, has researched what we call Child Care deserts where there's not a license space for children under the age of 12, and so we have a dearth of child care, licensed child care spaces here in Manitoba. So you know, you hear stories of people who, you know, put themselves on wait lists as soon as they know that they're pregnant. For example, we have two kids, we can't find school age care, so I have to flex my days in order to pick up our kids at 330 and it makes for a very hectic day, not to mention school in service days and holidays. You know, we are scrambling to get childcare for our kids six and seven, so I'm living that reality. And so yeah, you know, feminist economists have said that if somebody exits the labor force to care for children when they re enter, they may not have the same opportunities for career advancement because they've missed several years, and then they haven't been saving the same amount for their RSP or pension because they've been out of the workforce. So that is an issue of economic inequality, and also we need the childcare spaces, because people can't go back to work if they don't have a place to for their kids to go. But childcare is economic development. There's a economist out of Quebec, Pierre for 10 he studied Quebec system. All the money that the government spent on childcare was brought back to the province of Quebec and Canada. Government of Canada in terms of the taxes parents paid because they were able to get childcare and work and then pay taxes. So, yeah, I kind of want to also talk about reframing childcare as not just a public service for women, but an important part of our economy as well, because it helps people get to work. You

Stuart Murray  26:57  
know, you hear about this conversation probably more in federal election campaigns than than provincial. But you know, this notion that we're gonna create all these, you know, childcare spaces, and I'm at an agent stage Molly that, you know, that's not something that I do a lot of thinking about. But my daughter, to your point, exactly when she knew that she was pregnant, enrolled in or put her name forward to be get a daycare space. It never happened, you know, just it's one of those, one of those elements. And so the stress that it adds to parenting, and particularly is, you know, I think it's fair to say a lot of that burden rests on the mother, on the woman, you know, in terms of what, what takes place there. And I guess I look at this conversation around pay equity and say, there's so many moving parts to it, but I also look at some of these conversations Molly and say that is somebody by design, and I don't know who somebody is, but is somebody by design trying to make this very complicated so that it makes it more difficult to achieve, when really you've talked about the legislation that has happened. I mean, clearly when you think about 35 years ago, if I'm not mistaken, according to the research document that the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives put out 35 years ago, Manitoba was was looking pretty good across Canada in terms of that pay gap equity. Is that a fair comment? Well, I

Speaker 1  28:15  
think we were looking good in terms of taking action to address it, but we don't have a pay equity Bureau, as far as we can tell. We hadn't be able to find it. So we don't actually have an active entity tracking it inside government. And so, you know, from a political economy perspective, which is what you know our workplace does, we've looked at the rise of neoliberalism, of a very hard pushed to shrink government, and that means that government hasn't had the tools to implement the legislation it has on the books, or necessarily, I would say women are too busy to lobby for the things that we need, because we're taking care of the kids and working for pay and, you know, sandwich generation, all that kind of thing. So it's very hard. There's not a lot of entities actively advocating and lobbying for these things in a systemic way. So yeah, those are some of the reasons why I think we haven't gotten to where we want to be. I mean, I did watch a presentation by Ontario's pay equity Commissioner recently, and they said, well, it's only been 70 years that women have been in the labor force. And so, you know, these things take time to us. You know, we also said It's been 40 years since the review of the status of women in Canada said we needed a child care system. So it took 40 years to get the child care system. Now we don't have enough spaces, so it's taking a long time, and people are paying the price. And I think the pandemic was the big wake up call for a lot of people. I also think the wonderful movement for racial justice is part of this. We need to look intersectionally at gender and race. And of course. Ability to make sure that people are not being discriminated against there, and the more we talk about this, so that's why I'm really welcome this conversation, the more people can get educated and involved, and hopefully we can keep pushing all of this forward. You

Stuart Murray  30:14  
did mention in your conversation, and certainly in the report, about how devastating covid was for women particularly. Just explain what your research found that made you kind of put that into the report.

Speaker 1  30:28  
Yes. Well, it was this notion of, what does a feminist recovery from covid look like? What do we need to not just go back to before covid, but to move things ahead? And so I did write a piece on that, and in my research, because I do a lot of different kinds of research, not just on women's and gender equality, you know, I went back to the basics, and pay equity was part of that, and that's because women are overrepresented In service sectors, so, you know, and also tourism, accommodation, those kinds of things. So, as I mentioned earlier, when the lockdowns happen, they were first out and also in lower pay sectors, and so much less of a cushion economically. I mean, Cerb did help. That was huge. We actually saw child poverty go down, almost cut in half in Manitoba when Cerb came in, because people had enough money through Cerb to cover the basics due to that. And so when the economy came back in and the lockdowns ended, you know, women went back. But you know, still finding childcare is very difficult, I think also the stress of, you know, some people work from home. I work from home. Our child care center was locked down. My son was in the next room. I was trying to work and also take care of a child who was quite young, who probably watched too much screens during that time. And it's just extremely stressful as well. So we kind of see that people don't want that to, you know, we want to make some gains that we don't have that situation arise again. It

Stuart Murray  32:06  
was a fascination to watch what happened with kind of the lockdowns, and how it was impacted. And as you say, if you if you look at sort of the service industry, the tourism industry, accommodation, etc, if that's largely, you know, driven by women employees, you know, they would be the first and hardest hit. Would you say that we're close to being back to where, you know, I don't want to call normal, because, again, you normal just means you're still behind, right? I mean, you want to advance it. Have you got some research that shows that that that may be taking place, or that there's a sense that that that is being more positively received.

Speaker 1  32:42  
Well, I should note, of course, the healthcare workers during covid did such tremendous work, and in this study that the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives did called Beyond recovery, which was looking at a number of indicators of women's equity across Canada. In Manitoba. Here we looked at home care and personal care home workers, which are predominantly women and women of color. And you might remember that when the crisis in personal care homes was happening, home care workers were brought in to fill the gaps when there wasn't enough labor there, and those workers are extremely low paid. In fact, the QP 204, workers have against their own union, voted against the most recent labor offers, because they actually starting wages a minimum wage of 1530, an hour here in Manitoba. So that has not changed. Those particularly, you know, we know nurses have settled, but the other parts of the healthcare system, healthcare aids, you know, home care workers, personal care home workers, are still lower paid and want to make some gains because they really struggled during the pandemic. So, yeah, I still don't think we're there yet in terms of a recovery, but what we do have is people who've learned some lessons, and are not going to forget those, and are going to keep pushing for work progress so we don't go back.

Stuart Murray  34:07  
Did you say that there was a group in home care that voted against something? Can you just explain that a little bit more, please.

Speaker 1  34:16  
So yeah, I don't know when this will be aired. It's September 6, so the union that represents the home care workers, part of the home care workers is QP, and they were offered a wage settlement, and the workers voted against that, even though the union recommended it. And then that's because the home care workers and there was a very interesting article that Carol Sanders wrote about a home care worker who's working eight hour shift at Concordia, then eight hour shift at I think it was St B, what they do on a daily basis to help people through the health care system and the very low wages that person's earning, even though they've been in that job for quite a while. You know, I'm sure the Union did try their best to get a deal for them, but the. Workers themselves are saying, you know, we can't sustain these lower wages, wages below $20 an hour, and we've been through too much with the pandemic, and we need a better deal. And so that, to me, points to the fact that people have had enough, and particularly in engendered positions.

Stuart Murray  35:19  
So if I understand correctly, just to sort of follow it through the fact that they voted against it. Does that mean that there's a chance that they have an opportunity to go on strike, potentially,

Speaker 1  35:27  
yeah, yeah, or they have to go back to the bargaining table now and try and negotiate a better settlement, and go back to their workers and see if they'll vote to accept it or not. Okay, fair enough.

Stuart Murray  35:39  
So you know, one of the things, when this conversation comes up, I've had conversation with lots of people that start to ask the question, which I can't answer, but Molly, what's the root of this history of why we find ourselves having this conversation at 2024

Speaker 1  35:57  
Well, women's studies, 101, would say the patriarchy, the fact that women's work is undervalued because it's care work, and so women work very hard in the home for no pay to feed people, social reproduction, you know, get people out the door, and that when women enter the labor force, their work hasn't been valued At the level of responsibility and complexity that it is and that that's been reflected in pay and so pay equity has been the fight for women to have equal pay of work of equal value, so that, say, the old example was a secretary and a truck driver, for example. And of course, getting rid of pay discrimination, which is outright discrimination, which, you know, we have made some progress on, but I'm not going to say it doesn't exist. So, yeah, I think, you know, the ME TOO Movement has done a lot for raising awareness of women. Are not going to take it anymore. You know, we are speaking out and will not be stigmatized in situations of sexual violence or otherwise. And also, of course, you know the Black Lives Matter, and other movements for racial justice, those are hugely making a difference. I would say, culturally in our society, we're seeing a lot more diversity in our in our cultural media and movies and TV shows and everything else. But when it comes to money and pay, that is more complicated, and we just need to share a little bit more and make sure that people have enough to live by, and that means equal pay for work of equal value.

Stuart Murray  37:36  
Molly, do you think if there are more women who get involved in the world of politics at whatever level it may be. Do you think that's what it's going to take to sort of push this thing over? I mean, having more women engaged than involved, or is it more really trying to get, I'll just say the term civil society. I'm not sure if that's the right word, but to get people who look at it and say this is a human right issue. It's not a women's issue. Well,

Speaker 1  38:03  
absolutely, we need more women in politics. And you know, we do have in the legislature right now one of the most diverse, I think it's the probably most diverse legislature in Manitoba. So, yeah, absolutely, that needs to happen. But yeah, I like how you phrase that. It's, it's a human rights issue. It's not just a woman's issue, for example, as it might have been characterized before, and that we all benefit when people have enough to live with dignity and are respected and have are paid equally to their value, that they contribute to the economy and society. And, you know, I think we've, we're talking about civil society. So, you know, I'm connected with the labor movement, with nonprofit and charity movement, but I'd like to see what the business community would have to say about this. We have talked to the chamber, parts of the chamber in Winnipeg here, but I think that that's also, you know, conversations that need to take place, and then also with different cultural communities I mentioned, you know, the Congress of black women, but those groups can also have a huge impact, because, yeah, they are trying to ensure that there's no more discrimination For people of their cultural group,

Stuart Murray  39:21  
is there an organization that you would like to see kind of lead this conversation? Molly,

Speaker 1  39:27  
well, we don't have such an organization here anymore. We did for a long time, have a group called the United Nations Platform for Action Committee that paid attention to international human rights law as it related to women, and then brought that home to Manitoba. So, yes, we do need somebody to convene that conversation, because it's, it's happening in pockets, but not at a high level here in Manitoba.

Stuart Murray  39:53  
Yeah, well, you know, one would hope, and I know that one of the things that you know, I tried to ask my guests if there. Is reading material that would help to maybe understand or educate. Because, you know, I try in this podcast to bring on professional educators or advocates, of which I think you kind of fit both Molly, you know, when I ask, is there any reading that you would request or suggest that maybe anybody who's listening would pick up to learn more. And of course, you suggested, very clearly, tired of waiting rectifying Manitoba pay gap that has been produced, and you mentioned the author's names. It is produced by the Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives. Manitoba, from your perspective, you know, just to sort of close out this podcast, is there something that you would like to share with anybody who's listening that perhaps I haven't asked you about the importance of trying to find a way to close this pay gap.

Speaker 1  40:50  
Well, I would say that it's a matter of human rights and that there is a benefit to all of us when people are paid a dignified wage that reflects their skill and contribution to the economy. And yeah, I'm very happy that you've invited me on and are shining a light on this. It's very, very important. So yeah, I really thank you for the opportunity. There's a really great coalition in Ontario called the Equal Pay coalition. So we do see bigger provinces having groups that are carrying these ideas forward in a coalition level, also in BC and Quebec, and because Manitoba is a smaller province, we don't necessarily have that capacity. But if anybody is listening and wants to get involved, please email me at molly@policyallternatives.ca, and I'd welcome that conversation. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  41:41  
and I'll put that into the Episode notes, Molly, if people just want to know how they could get more involved or whatever they do. You know, just close on this. I spent some time in the legislature in Manitoba, and across the aisle was Gary Dewar and who did a tremendous job as the premier of Manitoba. You know, we've since obviously become friends following our political careers, not saying we weren't during but the point I want to make through, I think doors leadership and his relationship with a lot of the firefighting community, one of the things that we enacted in Manitoba was presumptive legislation to deal with some of the issues that firefighters were working with. That has, I believe, and I stand to be corrected, but I believe Molly has become kind of almost the gold standard, if that's the right term for the world to start looking at what took place in Manitoba. I guess I would just leave this with you. And in this people listening to this conversation is, why don't we become that sort of lead in terms of closing that pay equity gap, and sort of be the kind of the model take that lead and sort of really kind of talk about why Manitoba is the kind of place that people want to come and live and they want to raise a family, and they want to participate, because we have that ability, from a human rights perspective, to recognize the importance of why equal pay for equal work is a no brainer, and we embrace it, and we celebrate it, and we want the world to know about that.

Speaker 1  43:04  
Absolutely, yeah, that would be fabulous. There's a lot of potential to lead here from Manitoba, I agree, as the heart of the continent, right?

Stuart Murray  43:13  
Okay, well said. Molly McCracken, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you jumping on and sharing your thoughts, your wisdom, bringing up the incredible, hard work that's being done today, and let's hope at some juncture down the road, if I have you on the podcast, we can celebrate something that has been important to not just women, but to men and everybody involved, in terms of trying to create equality for those that deserve it.

Speaker 1  43:37  
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me and for shining light on this issue. Thanks, Molly,

Matt Cundill  43:42  
thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray. Social Media Marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmund. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca

Tara Sands  44:04  
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