Rebecca Chartrand: .Language Lessons start at Home, Listen and Learn from your Elders

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on Treaty One territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota, and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Métis Nation.

This is Humans on Rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Languages play a crucial role in the daily lives of people, not only as a tool for communication, education, social integration, and development, but also as a repository for each person's unique identity, cultural history, traditions, and memory. Despite their immense value, languages around the world continue to disappear at an alarming rate. My guest today is Rebecca Chartrand. Rebecca is the President and CEO of Indigenous Strategy, but she has a very interesting background, both professionally and in the community. And I'm going to touch on a couple of them, Rebecca, and then we'll get into this conversation. But first and foremost, I know that you're a very proud Anishinaabe First Nations woman from Treaty Four territory in Manitoba, and I'm going to tell you that I'm from Treaty Four in Saskatchewan, Punnichy Saskatchewan. So we've got something in common. I know that you carry a strong sense of pride in your identity, and you're regarded for your integrity, courage, voice, and charismatic presence. I know that you've worked to advance Indigenous achievement by bridging between diverse communities using reconciliation, antiracism, diversity, equity, and inclusion, an Indigenous and multicultural education framework. You have a strong, strong, worth ethic, and your leadership style is clearly informed by Indigenous ways of teaching, learning, leading, which orient towards holistic perspectives, varying contributions from all that are paddling the same canoe towards common goals. I love that. I know that you have done work professionally, Rebecca, for 25 years experience working in K to twelve postsecondary education and the arts. You were a former vice president of Inspire, which was a national charity that set a record in 2021, awarding some $20 million in bursaries and scholarships to students. You were an executive director at Red River College, where there you created seven new programs while securing 1.4 million in new funding, and created two new student support units, your professional parties. You're also behind the development of the Ojibwe Bilingual School that opened in 2016. This is the first of its kind in Manitoba, a school that allows students to choose an English or Ojibwe program route to a dual track school. Got to talk about that. But what I love, too is that you're into the community, Rebecca, in a big way. So a board member of the Health Sciences Center Children's Hospital Foundation of Manitoba, the National Museum of Nature. Also, you are an Indigenous education advisory council of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, and you received a Canadian Aboriginal Music award in 2000. I want to talk about that, but I just learned that you knew how to box. So I want to be careful how we sort of have this whole interview. But Rebecca Chartrand, welcome to Human On Rights.

Well, thank you for having me. Stewart. I'm really happy to be here. I'd like to introduce myself in my language. Boojoo, Tansi, Aaniin, Wapinoong Ikwe nindishinicaz, Wabishke Maengun doodem, Pine Creek, Duck Bay, Vogar, nindoonjii and Winnipeg ootenang. So I basically said that my roots are from Pine Creek, Duck Bay and Bogart, and I'm living here in Winnipeg, which is more of like this urban local area here Uttanang.

So, Rebecca, I mean, we want to talk about the fact that March 31st is recognized as Indigenous language days. And I know you're doing a lot on Indigenous languages, but before we get to this incredible background that you have, you say you were born on the Manitoba side of Treaty Four. I'm on the Saskatchewan side. Just take us through how it is that you arrived to be the professional you are today. Where did you do some of your schooling and where did you maybe realize that you were being taught in a language that might not have been as familiar to you as a younger person?

Right. Yeah. So I grew up in Treaty One territory here in Winnipeg, Manitoba, predominantly in the north end of Winnipeg. So I went to what was considered like the Indigenous schools, like Aberdeen, and then later Children of the Earth. So I graduated from Children of the Earth High School. And when I think about language, both of my parents are fluent speakers. I am not a fluent speaker. I was the driver behind getting up the Ojibwe Bilingual School here in Winnipeg. It opened up in 2016 with the first three grades, was kindergarten to grade three. Very proud of that. And then also went on to create an Ojibwe certificate program at Red River College. So it was a one year program teaching people how to use the double vowel system when they're reading and writing in the language. And so that was a very unique project as well, but one that was necessary because we had these language programs that were popping up in the city, and we are an oral culture, so we didn't necessarily have a written language similar to the way that we learn in the school system. So that's where the double vowel system was created. We did have Syllabics, that is a written language, but it's not the language, it's not the form in which we learn in public education. So I'm really proud of these initiatives. I do speak a little bit of a Ojibwe, but I am not fluent in it. And yeah, so I have some work to do on that front.

Well, I think we all do. And one of the reasons that you're on this episode is to talk about the importance of languages, particularly from an Indigenous perspective. But can I just make sure that I've got something accurate? Rebecca, do you live in Treaty One territory, which I do also, but I just want to make sure I'm accurate. Were you born in Treaty Four? In the Manitoba side of Treaty Four?

No, I was born here in Winnipeg, but that's my home community. So that's where I have my treaty status is with Pine Creek First Nation. So that's located in Treaty Four. Yeah.

Part of the interesting part about this, Rebecca, is that that treaty does sort of cross both Manitoba and Saskatchewan. That's why when I saw the year Treaty Four, I thought, wait a minute, manitoba? But I'm from Punishai, Saskatchewan, and the Gordon Reserve 86, I think it was referred to Gordon 86 was the kind of the home reserve there. So, interesting. That just an understanding of the importance of treaties. So, Rebecca, when you were going through school, we all as kind of when we get into grade school, intermediate school, grade 9, 10 11, 12, you start to think about what you would like to do with your career or what really interests you. What were you most interested in in that particular time in your life?

That's a really good question because, to be honest, I had no aspirations. I didn't know what I wanted to do in high school. And in fact, I had dropped out because I wanted to work. I guess when I look back, I don't feel that I was being challenged in ways that were, I guess, purposeful for me. So I dropped out. I was working at Video 1001. But then Children of the Earth had opened up. Children of the Earth was the first Indigenous high school in Canada. And so I gravitated back to high school to finish my grade twelve, because this was interesting. It was something that was reflecting who I was as an Indigenous woman growing up in North End. But when I think about what was really motivating me in terms of my future, I think it was the social justice issues that I was dealing with living in the inner city. For example, one of my girlfriends was murdered in 1991. Her name was Glenda Morris. So she's part of the missing and murdered Indigenous women within this area. I was so enraged when that had happened because I remember reading something in The Sun that there was speculation that maybe she was a prostitute. And why? Because she was Indigenous, female, young, and then going home late at night from a party. So being one of her closest friends, I was just outraged and just felt like, okay, so what do we do about this? Well, I had joined Red Roof Theater at the time, and we created this play called Those Damn Squads. The play was to address the issue of racism, exploitation and violence against Indigenous women. And this play, we created it as young youth that were living in the North End dealing with these issues and needed to say something about it. So most of the work that I have done over the years has really been purpose driven in terms of just needing an outlet to deal with the challenges that we were living with growing up in Winnipeg's inner city. So I got into theater for a while after that. I did some other plays with the Waskin Theater. We did some plays that addressed the issue of suicide in our communities. When I graduated from Children of the Earth, I graduated with the Governor General Award, and I also graduated with a TD scholarship. I kept writing about all of these issues in the North Bend, so we created a newsletter for the school to really try and amplify these issues that were happening. And then I was given a job at TD Bank after that. Because of the scholarship that I won, I was hired under employment equity, which was great. I learned a lot about banking and about just financial literacy, which was fantastic. But when I went back to school, I took education. I majored in theater and history, and one credit short from psychology as well. So these are the things that have motivated me. I traveled up north, working on some of the fishing lodges. When tourists come in from the States, they want to go fishing, hunting. So I did a lot of that. And so I guess at an early age, I just knew I wanted to do something, I just didn't know what. And I think the banking experience really helped, but I realized that that wasn't for me. And I have to say, but it was definitely a really important learning experience because being hired under employment equity at the time was a huge win, that they're looking to diversify their workforce. But I don't believe that they were ready to receive my presence. And it's fair, because when I think about the dynamics at the time, there was only three full time jobs. The rest were all part time. Here I am, fresh out of high school, no banking experience, getting a full time job. Other people are fighting to get full time jobs, but it's just not happening. So you can imagine the type of pension that would create for someone who's young and fresh out of high school. And the only reason why they're hired is because they're Indigenous. I think it's even those types of experiences that kind of made me go, and I couldn't articulate it at the time, but it kind of made me go, like, okay, we need to do something about this, because all of this does not feel good. So I think those are the motivators for me, is just always trying to go, okay, we need to increase our voice. We need to increase our presence. We need to create spaces that are safe and nurturing for us, especially for our young people, if we're going to get anywhere, if we're going to get out of what this is for us. And a lot of times, it's the intergenerational trauma.

Rebecca, just if you can share your thoughts. For example, this isn't to be a criticism. It's really to try to learn from the process. So the TD Bank looks at you and gives you a scholarship. You have the chance to go and work full time there, as you say. And at that point, there's a lot of people that would be looking at you saying, well, there's only one reason that she's here. It's because she's an indigenous woman. Forgetting the fact that are you qualified? You have the experience, all of those things get put to the side. So I want to just from your perspective, you have to sort of step back and say for corporations that want to try to look at how they can diversify through equity and inclusion, I think that's important and I don't want to take anything away from anybody. The point I make, I guess, is now I'm talking to somebody who is on the recipient side of that. So not the management side, but they're on the recipient side. Is there a better way for people? Like in your instance, if you could sort of go back into the way back machine and sort of say, wow, what a great opportunity. And now you arrive at the TD bank and you got this job that they could have made you feel more welcome rather than and I'm not saying they didn't, but it's just that at some point they get you there and they sort of say, well, look at what we've done. We're starting to move in this direction. But then kind of over to you, Rebecca Chartrand, to try to survive in that sort of environment which is new to you, is there some experiences you could share to say in the future, this is kind of what would make it more easier for people to be in that inclusive environment.

I think employers also have to look at their state of readiness in receiving Indigenous peoples because there's racism. We know that through the Black Lives Matter movement. And the 215 is like people are demanding not only diversity, equity and inclusion, but justice. And so for me, justice is about data. It's ensuring again that people have these safe and equitable opportunities for employment or whatever it is. But I think readiness is important. And so I think the employers need to look at the question of are we ready to receive this? Are we ready to support these employment equity opportunities? Because it's not just about hiring people. But you need to look at the bias that exists amongst staff. You need to look at the institution itself. Because when we look at things from an antiracism lens, our institutions, our larger institutions weren't designed for people like me to succeed. And if we look at post secondary education, for example, there's a good example, right? We had residential schools that were created as part of the segregation that we experienced as First Nations mat and Inuit people. So we have to look at the status quo and who is the system working for and why? And so it's not just the systems itself, but it's all of the social dynamics between people understanding microaggression and where that comes from, the prejudice. And so I think there's a need to do a lot of work around that in terms of where people are at individually and then collectively as an organization or a business in the ways in which they're about to receive people. So there needs to be some cultural awareness. And thank goodness we've arrived at this place of antiracism. When we look historically at the work we've done, we started with multiculturalism, right? And then multicultural education because things were so diverse. So we've done a great job, and Winnipeg is fantastic for it. We have folklore AMA. And then people said, okay, that's not enough. So, okay, let's do diversity, equity, inclusion. Let's take it a step further. But we really hung our hat on gender equity with the Dei work, and we never really got into talking about race or racism. And so now we've arrived at looking at things from an antiracism lens. And to me, it's all about data and accountability. It's like, okay, how do we know we're actually moving the needle? How do we know people are actually doing well in these spaces? It's not just about hiring people, but it's looking at both qualitative and quantitative data to see how we are moving the needle.

But part of it almost would be is I mean, I'm looking at your particular business now Indigenous strategy that you're running that they would necessarily, an organization, say, look, we need to get more diverse equity and bring in inclusivity into our organization before we hire person one. This isn't a pitch, by the way, for your company, Rebecca, but what they really would do is to sort of engage you and your organization and say, how do we get ready to make sure that when we start, bringing people that we're trying to bring in on the diversity and the equity piece. How can we make sure that, day one they feel as if they belong here? That this is a training opportunity for them? That there's an advancement opportunity for them in ways that probably weren't there when you first started. And again, I'm not trying to throw any shade against TD Bank. As a matter of fact, give them some credit for doing what they did. But I'm sure that no good. Perfect. And thank you for that. But just the point is that you arrive there and at some juncture, what's the orientation like for somebody that has not necessarily been part of their employment opportunity?

I don't think there was anything different. I was being treated as everybody else. And at that time, I think people just thought, well, that's the way we need to approach things. Like, we treat everybody the same. We don't see color. But I think that's where, again, some work has to be done, because when we think about hiring practices and our biases, we end up hiring people that look like us, right, that talk like us, that behave like us. And so I think from an HR perspective, that's where diversity and equity policy is really important, just because we have to find ways to kind of recognize our bias and look outside the norms. So I think that's one way to look at it. I think you need data. You need to understand what is the makeup of your diversity now. And so the trend is to collect census like data in the workplace, which I think is a really good starting point, and then to understand, well, what is the makeup of who we are and who are we representing? So the education system is a good example. I built an antiracism policy for Seven Oak School Division, and we conducted a census type of survey with all of the staff in the division. And it was fantastic. We had like, a 75% return in terms of staff billing out. And then how did that impact the division? Well, we realized, okay, well, if this is our student makeup, then maybe our staff should reflect that. And so there's been several hires of moving educators up to admin role positions to help reflect the student body and the community in which they're representing. So those are some important things, data, really holding up the mirror, looking at yourself and going like, okay, who are we, and where do we need to do some work here? And it's really important to ask people of color to indigenous black people of color, like, what is your experience like in this workplace now? How can we make it better? And if you have none, then why don't we have none? And so I think another good example of that for me is with the cab companies. We know that there's huge tensions between the indigenous community and some of the cab companies. But when you also look at the diversity of the cab companies, we recently met with the cab companies, and some of the anecdotal information that we collected is because we're trying to bridge, build, and bring these two communities together and say, how do we work better together? So people feel that they're getting a service, and they also feel safe and respected, and then recognizing that the cab companies are a local business and we want them to do well too. So it's having these very frank and sometimes very uncomfortable conversations about what the reality is. And so one of the realities is that the cab companies don't have a lot of indigenous people working for them. In their own words, they maybe had about ten out of 2000. Well, there's a good number that we can work with, right? It's like, okay, you have ten people. How do we get it up to 10%, 15%? We start creating benchmarks, but we also need training and I think that training is really about anti Indigenous racism training, understand where some of this bias or these attitudes might come from that create these tensions between this particular community and the Indigenous community. That's a good example of where we could look at race relations and we could look at the data, the demographics to create a clear plan in terms of, well, how do we move reconciliation forward? How do we ensure that people feel safe when they're accessing a certain service? And bias, there's bias on all sides. Bias just doesn't go one way. So I think we need to kind of dig in and look at these things in a very holistic way, for sure.

And so Rebecca just talking about the issue for Indigenous Peoples and the cab companies, as you mentioned, who took the leadership on that to start that process to make that go? How did that develop? Because there's so many times that we need to look at models that work. Some that might not work, but that's okay, we adjust. But would you say this is a model that worked? And if so, can you just talk a bit about the leadership on it?

There was a group of women in the community that had come together to talk about incidents, some specific incidents that were actually in the media in terms of safety issues. Some Indigenous women not feeling safe when they were riding in Winnipeg cab companies. And so that's why Quay Rides was created. It was Indigenous women creating safe rides for Indigenous women. And so, as part of a reconciliation effort, I know that both Duffy's and Unicity Taxi were really trying to bridge, how do we make this work, right? How do we work together here? And so I was invited to one of the meetings. I know there's another group of women that were kind of managing that. And we were asked Indigenous strategy. We were asked to come in and perhaps help create a strategy in terms of where do we go next. Well, my recommendation after sitting for 2 hours and kind of hearing what the cab companies had in mind and the conversations that were had prior to my arrival was I had questions. And my questions were, okay, so what's the plan to date? And I know that the cab companies were looking at hiring maybe 15 Indigenous people as a starting point, indigenous women to employ them in the cab company. This way, there might be a way to get the woman to pick up other women. And in my mind, I was like, okay, well, that's a start. And so when I'm asking questions, it's like, okay, how many people do you have employed now? Well, if you have 2000 staff, what's the percentage of Indigenous people? And so if you're saying that you have ten Indigenous people, not 10%, but ten, then we have a long ways to go at 15. Hiring 15 Indigenous people would just be a start, then I think you need to look at policy, you need to look at training, and you need to understand the biases that people are coming with. And what was interesting in that conversation too, and I really appreciate the honesty that some people do come from other countries with biases towards indigenous people and especially Indigenous women. And we don't know, like, I don't know exactly what transpired in these situations. It was enough to cause media to pick it up, and it was enough to cause Indigenous women to say, hey, we're going to create our own safe rides. So this is an example of a point of tension, and it is of around race, because Indigenous women who experience some issues around safety in their rides are saying, there's a problem here. And the cab companies did not they didn't deny it. They said, you know, yes, like any other workplace, we do have some bad apples, and we need to do some training. And I've worked in education for years. I've had colleagues who've immigrated here and who've said, I hate to say it, but in these, quote, unquote, these Canada schools that help prepare us to come to Canada, we're taught before we even get here, to stay away from Indigenous peoples, the Indians, right? And you'll be okay. And so it makes it really difficult for Indigenous peoples to be in spaces where we feel completely safe and supported under these types of conditions, because what we end up getting or seeing as a result of this bias is prejudice and microaggression and the inability for Indigenous people to feel that they're maybe being welcomed or a part of a workplace. And my own experience that working at TD Bank, being hired under employment equity, for example, I couldn't make any friends. And I was like, Is it just me? Or, like, what is this? But I felt it on a day to day basis, and I actually left there crying a couple of times, going like, what is this? Is it me? My colleague, three months into my job, she was a French woman from Quebec, and I love her, and I wish I could reconnect with her, because what she said to me in the lunchroom one day really made a huge difference in my experience there moving forward. She sits down beside me, and she says, you're not so bad. So I looked over at her, and I'm like, oh, you're not so bad too. And then she goes, well, you know, she goes, I just have to tell you, some of us before you arrived here, we were upset. Some of us had gone to human resources because you were getting hired full time. And if things have been, like, a little rough around here, it's because people were really unhappy with you getting this job. And she was a French woman from Quebec, and she started talking about her experience, saying, I understand what you're going through the French have really come through a lot of discrimination and things like that as well. And at the time, I wasn't making the connection to what she was talking about, but she was seeing what was unfolding, and she felt like I needed an ally. And so from that day forward, I had a friend, I had an ally. I had somebody who was, like, checking in on me. Hey, how are you doing? Somebody who was winning me for lunch. And it made all the difference moving forward.

Yeah, I bet. And I appreciate you sharing that, Rebecca, because, again, that really kind of comes full circle to the notion about how welcomed are you? Or how ready are the organizations when they bring people in. It's not a matter of sort of saying, we've hired you. Here you go, lots of luck, hope it works out. And you're sitting there saying, what's up with that? That's not kind of what I was expecting. Let me just kind of come back, Rebecca, to something that you talked about. There's the Ojibwe Bilingual School that opened in 2016, the first of its kind in Manitoba. So you have two tracks at that school, or what was developed is two tracks at that school, one in English or one in Jibui programming. Was there a particular reason that that school or that school division was chosen? Maybe talk us through that, because, again, that's a big, big move.

Well, I was recruited for the position that I held in Seven Oak School division by Brian O'Leary, which I truly appreciate to this day. And I was working at Winnipeg School Division as their divisional aboriginal education consultant. And so Seven Oaks was looking to enhance their Indigenous education initiatives. And I was invited to come in. My first step was just to do an assessment of the division and get a sense of, like, okay, what are the initiatives happening now? So I took the time to visit each of the schools, the principals documenting here's all these initiatives that are happening, and then, of course, looking up against that larger backdrop, right? Like, how did we arrive at Aboriginal education? What is it we're trying to achieve with it? Right, so looking at the national backdrop from a First Nations lens, the Aboriginal education lens, things that we're doing provincially. And so we ended up creating a path which was more of like, we did some visioning in terms of what we wanted to do. And so lots of stakeholder engagement, students, parents, educators, trustees, the superintendents, the administrators, just really coming together and trying to create opportunity for people to talk and to dream together and to say, well, these are our needs. Here's the challenges, here's, the aspirations. So we created a vision. And in that vision, one of the things was to create our own school where we could practice culture and language, and language was at the heart of it. And Elder Mary Kashin. Who is the elder in residence there. The language piece was really important to her, and she kept stressing it, and we all did, and we wanted to all support that because Mary is a residential school survivor. From that, I had created a policy for Seven Oak School Division, and there were seven areas of focus. One was supports for students, supports for staff, parent and community engagement, curriculum and resources. And then the last one was language. We wanted to help revitalize language, and so we did that in a number of ways. We did it. I had applied for grants to create some Ojibwe summer camps, and then we created programming throughout the year to try and bring families together to learn a lot about language. Not just students, but families. And so that was such an amazing experience, because it was really not only about building, like, trying to revitalize language, but we were building community, and we were building it with families. There was monies that was available through Canadian heritage, through the National Indian Brotherhood Trust Fund. We had addressed all of the other policy areas, but this was the last big piece, and it was like, okay, I think it's time to start applying, because the opportunities were there, presenting themselves, and, of course, with Brian, under Brian O'Leary's leadership. Brian has been a huge supporter of all these initiatives, and which is why I think Seven Oaks is a real leader in Indigenous education, because Seven Oaks was always willing to push the envelope with and for the Indigenous community and to let people like myself lead that. So I felt hugely empowered to help move things forward that the community wanted. It was such a privilege to just access funding, to work with the trustees, to work with the superintendents, to say, okay, how are we going to make this work? There were a couple of schools that we were looking at. We wanted this school because it was newer. It was formerly a French bilingual school, but they had a new school that was opening up, and that French bilingual program was moving down the street to the new school. And so it only made sense to maybe use this school to support the Ojibwe bilingual program. Again, the dual track program, where you can register for the English route or the Ojibwe route, it opened up in 2016 from kindergarten to grade three. We also advocated for busing. So if you live anywhere in the division, you can get free bussing to and from the school, which I think is a huge win. I think what's also interesting about the school is that we had a high number of kids in care, meaning 63% of the kids that enrolled in the program when it first opened up, 63% were children that were living in foster homes and predominantly with non Indigenous families. I'd have to say predominantly with the Filipino community. Some of the data that I collected at the time was that we had children from seven different CFS agencies, some from the north, and Indigenous language would have been their first language, right? Either Ojibwe or Cree. And so it was really important from that perspective for me to reach out to those CFS agencies, because it was the CFS agents that had to make the decision, because they were the legal guardian to get to move these children into the program. And so part of the extra legwork that I had done was reached out. I made a list of all of the kids identifying which CFS agency they were working with. I'd send a letter, I'd call, I'd say, hey, we have five of your kids in this school, and we need to work together to support the children. Because what I realized in working in the Division like Seminoles, have the second highest number of kids in care, second to Winnipeg School Division. And this, again, was based on all the data that I was pulling together. I think we had about 800 kids in the Division in 2016 that were kids in care. When you think about trying to revitalize language, it's really important to recognize where the children were at and where all the supports and resources were, because it's hard to learn language if you don't hear people speaking it, right? You can learn all the technical parts of it, like how to read and write in a Ojibwe using the double vowel system. But if you don't hear people interacting and talking with each other, then it's really hard to learn. And I'm a good example of that, right? My dad speaks, but I don't hear conversation, and he's always trying to teach us words. Part of that was like, how do we get more supports? And so after the legwork with the CFS agencies, we were able to hire two elders, the funds that they were providing on a part time basis. But it was done through a community based approach, because you had monies from families and monies from education at the time, it was a bit challenging to kind of get these supports, these financial supports, to come together. But I'm glad to say that that's changing now. But we were able to secure two elders. The elders came in, they were providing support, and that was so needed for these kids, especially those that were in care, because these kids were coming to school with trauma. Trauma in the sense that they've been taken out of their homes, away from their mums and dads, their communities. They're living with non Indigenous families. They're not hearing the language. And then finally, they arrive at a school where they have Indigenous teachers, and they have a couple of elders who are there as well, and they're hearing the language. And all the other kids are Indigenous, too. And for some of our kids, it was exactly what they needed. I just remember one of the kids would grab onto one of the staff members legs and didn't want to go home. And why? Because they found a sense of community. They found a space that was nurturing them, that felt safe and nurturing and familiar to them. And so it's not only about trying to revitalize languages, it's about trying to revitalize communities because it's with the communities and the family and the community where you're going to learn and revitalize language.

Yeah. So, Rebecca, a couple of things, because we are talking about the end of March, March 31 is Indigenous Languages Day. We're talking about language, the importance of it. When you looked at Seven Oak School Division and you wanted to sort of get into that Indigenous Languages piece, two questions. One is, how did you decide, say, for example, on Ojibwe, number one? And number two is, are there that many? Or how would you find the resources and the teachers that could allow the was a K to three kindergarten with grade three to be able to sort of learn and teach that? Because, again, that's a whole other resource that I think would be challenging at this point.

Oh, absolutely. So we hired three First Nations teachers from three different communities. So I have to tell you, there was so much work in deciding which dialect we were going to be using in the school. So that alone was a huge hurdle to work through and to come up with agreements on, okay, well, this is how we're going to spell the word book. This is how we're going to spell the word school using this double vowel system, because we're in the midst of not only revitalizing languages and oral language, we're also in the process of also engineering this way of how we're going to teach the language within a public school system that uses the Roman orthography right. So there were all of these different challenges to work through. So one of the things we did was we collected 100 words, most common words that we're going to use in the school system to communicate to the kids on a day to day basis. Came up with some agreements on how we're going to spell those words in terms of dialect. And then one of the projects I did as well, shortly after I left Seven Oak School Division was I created these 15 Ojibwebilingual books, and I put the link in our chat so they're free. And so I had secured funds from Canadian Heritage to write these 15 Ojibwe bilingual books. Because we had no resources in the school to teach the language, the teachers were working double duty. Because not only are we setting up a new program, but they're creating all of the resources. Little booklets to help kids to take some things home and learn. So the 15 books that I had created were all of the words that the kids would be using in the school. So commands like to sit, to stand to have a drink of water to read a book. So that was a support to the program. I think people need to understand that we're not just trying to revitalize get speakers speaking, but we're also in the state of writing, actually writing the resources and creating them as we go along. And so the reason why we chose to teach Ojibwe is because when you look at the province of Manitoba, the majority of Ojibwe speaking communities, Anishinaabe speaking communities, are in the southern part of Manitoba. And so the Cree speaking communities are in the north. And so when we did a survey to Community, we asked, would you enroll your child in an Ajibwe program or a Cree program? And an overwhelming amount of response was for the Ojibwe. And I think we had 4% at the time that said they wanted Kree, and the plan was to incorporate Cree at some point. The program has grown, so it goes to grade six now. So it's kindergarten and to grade six, not to grade five. A grade level was added each year, and so far, so good. But it is difficult hiring language speakers because to hire somebody who has a B ed and a language to teach, it's almost like they're a unicorn. And so you have teachers who are teaching now and learning the language as we go along. Which is why when I was recruited to work at Red River College, I was actually looking to take a leave from working nine to five and maybe doing my own thing. So that's actually when I launched my company, was in 2017. But then I was recruited from Red River College, and I was like, I kind of want to take a break and do some other things right now. But when I took the interview so I agreed to take an interview, and then I was like, oh, I got really excited because they're like, well, there's all these programs and we need someone to review them, and we need new programs. And I'm like, the language program was one of them that I was so interested in. Because working to get this Ojibwe bilingual school up and running, I already knew what the gaps were. We needed resources, we needed teachers, we needed to help educators learn how to teach the language using this double vowel system and to find a way to learn it being surrounded or immersed with fluent language speakers. And so, again, that program was built to help teach the double vowel system and help people who wanted to teach it learn how to teach it in that way. So in that sense, I feel really good about that work and the progression in terms of how it's grown.

Yeah. So I have to ask you, can you explain the double vowel system?

Yeah. So we're using what would be called like, Roman orthography which is like the alphabets. And so that familiarity, I think, is good for students because they're already familiar with it. But the double vowel system is like, they combine two vowels to make a different sound so that it doesn't line up exactly with the English language. But I think the double vowel gives you an indicator that it's making a different sound. Right? So an II, for example, it doesn't make the sound Eh or I. It makes the sound E. And so when you see an E by itself, again, you're recognizing something familiar from the alphabets, but it's making a different sound. So an E by itself would make the sound of A. So it's not something that I created, but I know that the people that were leading in our province in terms of revitalizing the languages, like Wanda Barker, for example, so these are the two go to language gurus in our province, and these are the systems that they were using. Right. And so they had done so much work meeting within Anishinaabe Territory. So our territories extend into Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Minnesota, North Dakota. And so they had spent a number of years like, okay, all of these people are grassroots and trying to figure out, how do we revitalize the language? And they agreed on this double vowel system. What do I do? I don't want to reinvent the wheel. We just kind of keep building on what they're doing. And so it seems to be coming a long way. Both Pat and Wanda are still teaching every chance that they can get, both in community and through school systems.

Yeah. Amazing. So, Rebecca, a couple of things just to sort of touch on, and I'm not sure when you and I talked earlier, there was some conversation about languages with respect to post secondary, and I just wanted to maybe touch on that for a second. And the other piece I wanted to make reference to was that under the 94 recommendations that came out of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, there was the, I think, the calls to actions 13 to 17, which dealt around language. And so is that something that is being discussed? Are you aware of some of the progress there? And do you want to talk a bit about that?

Yeah. So I was also involved for a number of years with the work of the Indigenous Education Directorate here in Manitoba and some of the work with post Secondaries coming together to discuss how do we revitalize language at the post secondary level? And so when I created that certificate program, it's like, ten courses to me. I just saw that as a jumping off point. Okay, so what does a diploma program look like? How do we create, like, a B Ed program that's very focused on having language as a teachable as opposed to some extracurricular courses to help you get a degree? And so the Indigenous Education Directorate was spearheading that, and I know they've been talking about it for a few years. So I'm hoping that they're close to creating their program that basically focuses on languages at the post secondary level. And I think that's one way to go about it. But if you talk to Pat Ningewance, for example, Pat will always say, you don't need the education system to teach the language. We don't necessarily need to go that route. We can teach through community. We can teach through grassroots. We can teach through our language camps and just setting up opportunities to speak and to engage with each other. So it's more of like a relational way of learning and a community based way of learning. But I think it's important for us to take the best of both worlds, right? Not everybody is going to have access to fluent language speakers or to community, but they will have access to post secondary courses where we want to ensure that we're creating these courses where people can feel that they that they can learn the language in that way too. One might work a combination of them might work for some people over others because we have to recognize that people learn in different ways. And I think on that note, we need to find a number of different strategies or ways in which we can pass the language on. Yeah.

And I'm going to ask you on that note, Rebecca, we talked the very beginning of this conversation about how you were interested in the arts and some of the things you had done through working on stage and developing basically a show, I guess, that talked about racism. And you use the stage and you use the performing arts to use that as an educating tool. Would you see that becoming an opportunity from a language perspective?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. If you go to the Wyndham Hotel on Madison, it's a new hotel. If you go to the washroom or you just walk around the building, you'll see that the words are written in a Ojibwe and also syllabics. And so to me, like, walking in that building and seeing that, I was like, wow, I felt such pride. I was like, there's our language. And that's the way that we have to help revitalize our language is we need to see it. We need to see it all over the place. It's just everywhere. And so then people will become familiar with it and they'll be more inclined to want to use the language because they're seeing it all the time. That's a huge part of when you look at TRC and the follow ups of that is like, we've been erased, we've been erased. Like, we're still trying to see ourselves as part of this modern landscape. And so I think that's why addressing language through an antiracism lens is really important. Let's set some targets. What's the data tell us now? How are we moving things along without accountability? We're not going to know whether we're having an impact.

Yeah. So Rebecca, clayton Sandy, who's a good friend of mine, we had breakfast at that hotel and we walked around and I saw the other language, but I'm not sure that out of my ignorance that I would have known that that was Ojibwe.

Yeah, well, and see, that's the thing you would have to understand whether it was or not, and there's a lot of similarities between Ojibwe and Cree, but then there's also some difference. Minoa Pimatasiwin, for example, which means walking a good life. It's very similar in both, there might be a slight dialect difference, but in both, in a Ojibwe and Cree, it means to walk in a beautiful way or a good way.

Yeah. Interesting. So, Rebecca, the last thing I just want to we're going to do a little bit of a different twist here for a second, because I know that you have taken boxing as a younger woman, and you're still young, by the way, but tell me about what got you involved in boxing? What do you take away from that? And then as you think about that answer, the last question I would just have is for those people listening, what can those listeners do to help advance indigenous languages in society? What can we do but kick off with the boxing for a second?

I used to box quite a bit before I had my son, he's nine. For me, I think I needed that level of intensity because I'm a change maker, so I've been recruited for my last four positions. But in those positions you have to realize that there's so much going on all at the same time. And at the core of it is like you're wanting to build and maintain good relationships, but because I'm coming in and asking questions that are offsetting sometimes, like asking people for data, for example, what is the data telling us? Especially when you're wanting to do strategic planning. So I think just always managing those relationships, including some of the microaggressions, because I am an Indigenous woman who's coming in wanting to create change, because we're saying the status quo isn't working. So positions that are being created for indigenous people within these institutions, well, they're automatically coming in as change makers. And it's important to realize that you're going to deal with those microaggressions and you may have support or not in those spaces. It's great if you do, but I don't think people can fully understand sometimes the level of what that might be. And so for me, recognizing that my role is to educate and to help kind of move initiatives along and my work isn't about me, it's about being a voice and a presence for other people. And that is usually Indigenous youth, whether it's k to twelve or post secondary, because that's where I've worked. And so that's always been my driving force of keeping that in focus, that I need to create change, I need to create these opportunities for all these young people who are coming up behind me so that they have a stronger foundation and they have those spaces that are there to support them. And that's not always easy work. I mean, it is it's great, it's fulfilling work. You meet great people along the way. But there's such a high level of intensity in having to kind of manage and maneuver some of that staff. Right. Those race relations, sometimes the microaggressions or even the lateral violence. So, for me, boxing helped me manage just working through my feelings and kind of letting things go. It's like a complete escape. I don't think yoga would have cut it, because I do yoga, too, but yoga is much more like relaxing, free flowing, balancing and centering yourself. So I think with the intensity of the work that I was doing, that was the perfect outlet for me. And I joined a boxing program where at the end of it, it was called the Fight Club. At the end of it, you're committing to boxing. So I got into the ring. I had two fights. I won my first and I lost my second. It was something that I wanted to do, so I was able to check that off my bucket list. And I just started boxing again the last couple of years. After I had my son, I had a hernia, and it finally got fixed. So I'm feeling great. I'm loving it. I encourage other people to check it out.

Yeah, no. Interesting. So, Rebecca, you're going to teach me one thing before we say goodbye? You said that the Ojibwe and Cree for you say walking a in a good way.

Walking the good road. Yeah.

Okay. Teach me that phrase, please.

Yeah.

So it's Mino-pimatisiiwin mino, bimaatisiiwin.

And then it's pitt p I ma m a pima T-I-S-I-W-I-N, Mino-pimaatisiiwin.

Tisay-win. Okay.

Yeah. But if people are wanting to learn the language, I would recommend that the first thing they do is like, they learn to say the Indigenous people's, the terms that are used by Indigenous people to define themselves. So we use words like a Ojibwe and Cree. Those aren't the words that we actually use to define who we are as a people. We're Anishinaabe. We're the Anishinabe and we speak Anishinaabemowin, which is the language of our people. We are not Cree people, we are Inaniwa people. Right. I think those are important, especially when you're doing land acknowledgments is getting those languages right, but then also thinking about how to introduce yourself using the language. So we're very much about relationships when we introduce ourselves and knowing your lineage. And so that's why when we introduce ourselves, we say so you would say Stuart Murray. Nin dishinikaas. Stuart Murray is my nickname. And then you might say the name of your clan. And your clan is usually like your last name, right? Nindoodem. So doodem means my clan. So for me, it's White wolf. So I say Wapinoong Iwke Indigenous, Wabishke Maengun and doodem. So the clan Wabashka Maengun. So Maengun is like the wolf and Doodem is my clan, meaning those are my people. Or you can say where you're from as well. So I said Pine Creek, Vogar and nindoongi. That's where I'm from. So I think that would be a really good way for people to learn the language, is to just build on that is, how do I introduce myself in Anishnabe my clan, where I'm from, and then in acknowledging the people, the original people of these territories?

Yeah. Well, Rebecca Chartrand, you are a change maker. Thank you so much for spending some time teaching me, allowing me to have a conversation with you. It's been wonderful. And I just want to thank you for your time and thank you for all you continue to do to work with languages to try to make this community, this city, this province, this country, a better place. So thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. And keep up the great work. I love what you're doing as well.

All right, we'll talk soon.

Okay, take care.

Thanks for listening to Humans On Rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray. Social Media Marketing by Buffy Davy music by Doug Edmond For more, go to humanrightshub.ca produced and distributed by The Sound Off Media Company.