Somia Sadiq: Inclusive, Transformative Change

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One territory, the traditional territory of the Anishnawbe, Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota, and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Métis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights.

Stuart Murray  0:26  
Here's your host, Stuart Murray. My guest today has been exploring how inclusive planning and indigenous led solutions are crucial in advancing human rights locally in Manitoba and more broadly, Samia Sadiq is the founder and CEO of narratives Inc, an environmental consulting firm that amplifies the voices of indigenous and racialized communities in territorial planning and environmental decision making. With over 15 years of experience as a Peace builder and certified environmental professional, somia work is deeply rooted in advancing reconciliation and sustainable culturally informed practices. Her personal journey, shaped by her family's experience during the partition of India and Pakistan, and her own as a newcomer to Canada, has inspired her to become a leading advocate for inclusive, transformative change. Samia Sadiq, welcome to humans on rights.

Somia Sadiq  1:30  
Thank you so much for having me. Stuart, really excited to be here.

Stuart Murray  1:33  
I was saying of just off air how you've got such a great website, and I'd love to get a little bit of sense of how you have created this incredibly vibrant business called narratives. Inc, but Samia, just because it's in your intro, can we start a little bit with sharing your experience, your family's experiences. You talked about the partition of India and Pakistan, which I went and did a little bit of research on I understood that was back in the the Indian independent act in 1947 I don't know a lot about it, but can you just start us off with the impact that that's had on you personally and on your family.

Somia Sadiq  2:11  
If I think about the role of partition, the role of any conflict, on people, one of the things we often forget about is the role of intergenerational trauma. So my family lives in Punjab. The other half of my family is in Kashmir, doing partition lines were drawn that split our family into into multiple parts, and that is a reality for many, many, many families that were around at the time, loss of loss of life, loss of family, loss of land, loss of their ways of being. So a lot of that, a lot of that intergenerational trauma, is something that we carry with that we also carry a deeply profound realization of the impact of colonization on who we are as people. There's also with that impact, a sense of pride of having gained our independence at the time as well. So it's so many complex things that exist as a part of that identity at the time, and lot of ways that very must, very much, has shaped my who I am and how I approach the work that I do.

Stuart Murray  3:28  
As you say, You're a you're a newcomer to Canada, you're an entrepreneur, clearly, and so we welcome you with open arms. You've created a wonderful business and employment for people. But when you reflect on what took place with the partition of India and Pakistan. Did you see some similarities in Canada in terms of how, you know, Eurocentric this country is known as

Somia Sadiq  3:53  
Yes, yes, and yes. So I think, and that is part of what has been very interesting as a part of my journey is so I came to Canada shortly after 911 which meant a very, very different time for for people of color, for Muslims in in particular, or really anyone who looked like they may be of a certain brand of a certain stripe. So navigating the Canadian landscape during that time, taught some very harsh lessons about inclusion, about racism, about microaggressions, about what it means to be a woman in a in a world that is dominated by others, so in a lot of ways, reflected on my family's journey And what that meant over over decades, reclaiming who they were. So in a lot of ways, in Canada, I think my journey has been marked with similar milestones, if you will. What was also noteworthy at the time when I came and a lot has changed since, and this was back in 2002 a lot has changed since. In terms of recognizing more and more Canadians, recognize our past, recognize what's transpired. There's much more public education to be done, and of course, we're working on that every day at the time, though there was very little known, the average Canadian did not know, and especially the average newcomer, did not really know much at all about who indigenous people are. So coming from a world view where we have some very structured teachings and systems and codes around how I'm expected to behave as a guest in someone's home, I felt very much of fish out of water, not knowing who is my host. Like, what are the rules of this land? How do I navigate all that? And then later on in my journey, as I got to know things a little bit better, realizing that there is a Dark Legacy here that we need to still think about and talk about, and what does that then mean? So it's been a very interesting journey of exploration and trying to understand who my host is, and what does that relationship look like between myself as a newcomer and the original people of this land.

Stuart Murray  6:16  
I mean, after you arrived here in Canada, we struck up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And as you know, the history about that and the 94 recommendations that came from that report, how did you view what that was all about? I mean, were you surprised in any way, shape or form, to say, wow, you're only getting to that now or I mean, thankfully, we did do it, but did it occur to you at some point that this colonialism that has been, as I said at the top, sort of this euro centric piece, has really got a hold on this country called Canada, that outside the world has quite a different from time to time, view of who we are as a country. The

Somia Sadiq  6:55  
impression of Canada, outside of Canada, is a very interesting, interesting topic in itself. I'll reflect a little bit more on my observations when I first first came. So when I first came my undergrad, it was in environmental sciences as a and as a newcomer with not much materials at my disposal, and at the time. You know you now you could just Google, what country am I going to what do I need to know about it, which was not really the case then. And so it took me quite a bit of time to really understand that part of Canadian history, and the only reason I really understood it. So keeping in mind, I was an environmental sciences student Environmental Sciences has everything to do with land, and I did not have any understanding through my coursework about Canadian history and indigenous history and treaty relationships. And I hope that that's changed now my only exposure came in third year university where I took a class, and at the time, it was called Aboriginal justice. And it was actually Nahanni Fontaine who was teaching that course at the time, and Nahanni was the first instructor who talked about that history. And as a part of that that course, Nahanni encouraged us to write a keep a journal, and I ended up spending a lot of time at the law courts just observing things unfolding in front of me, and spent a lot of time at the library at the time to listen to tapes of testimonies of residential School survivors. Had I not taken that course, which was an elective at the time, I would have it would have taken much longer to understand the history of that relationship, so that there's a really important lesson there for reconciliation approaches. We really need to invest time and effort in making sure that newcomers know about this part of our history, and what are we doing to to correct those historical arms that have happened? You

Stuart Murray  9:13  
know, you're very eloquent sumia, and also very forgiving, because when you talk about newcomers understanding the role of colonialism, that whole truth and reconciliation process for me was cathartic in the sense that I was raised in a small community in Saskatchewan, where we were surrounded by four reserves, small town of 400 people, and so my My dealing with First Nations residential schools was we would play hockey against residential schools. And one year, because I was in a small community, we didn't have enough people, I actually played with the residential school kids. And, you know, just to give it perspective, Samia, I looked at these kids and said, Wow, you're lucky. You've got your school here. Here, you've got a hockey rink right here, you're so close. I mean, it's all together. It's fantastic. And you know that really, for me, is one of those reflections, I guess, on my life, when I look at and say, it's what I didn't see at the time and what we weren't aware of, and the fact that there was never a question these kids that were there to play hockey, did they want to be there that was never a question that was even asked. And so, you know, when we find out the history now, and so when you talk about newcomers, I guess I just sort of challenge myself and anybody listening to say, it's not about just newcomers. I mean, sure, it's part of our education. And I think that one of the things that I do want to explore with you, because I think you have through your leadership and what you've done, you've created this organization called narratives. Inc, which is amazing, but I'd love to explore the fact that you know you come with 15 years of experience as a Peace builder and a certified environmental professional, and I'd love to see how that has impacted how you created narratives. Inc the work you're doing, and what it is that drives you to ensure that those issues that we talk about with respect to inclusivity and understanding in the role of indigenous peoples when it comes to land, very much, has a big seat at the table, something

Somia Sadiq  11:17  
that came to mind when you were talking about the residential schools. So one of the things that narratives has been quite involved in for the last last few years now is supporting Indian residential school investigations. So we have this deep, deep honor of sitting down with with survivors of the residential schools and their families to to hear about their experiences, to understand the impact, to patch together different parts of our collective history. We're working with 1000s and 1000s of archival materials to really understand what has transpired, looking at letters, looking at, you know, all sorts of media, photographs, old maps and what have you to figure out where some of the unmarked graves are, for example. So we get to hear a lot from survivors about their experiences, and appreciate you bringing up hockey and what it was like for these students. So for the average Canadian, there is a huge part of guilt and shame that gets evoked when they hear about or have this realization that, wait a second, I was, I was playing hockey with these students, and I have no idea what was happening there and therein. Is one challenge that I think is a really important one for us as Canadians to grapple with and find solutions to. So in Canada, where we're at in the macro scale of things, is there's realization that something really, really bad happened, and at some level, we all had some role to play, whether we were actively involved in building those policies or were the benefactors of the outcome of those policies. There's guilt, there's shame, and that's where the conversation ends. And I think it's really important now in Canadian history to reframe that guilt and shame into action. So that's great. Glad you're all feeling bad about it. What are we going to do about it? How do we change that? Channel that into reconciliation efforts? So I'd love to see that happen a lot more in Canada. So tying that to the the ideas around, you know, peace building efforts internationally, and the relevance of that to Canada, I think that is an important starting point is to look at some of the other countries that have dark history, and how have they framed that history into making sure those mistakes are not made again. And there's lots of lessons from truth commissions around the world, and there's lots of insight and advice and direction that's coming from indigenous leaders and survivors themselves. So let's channel that into something positive and moving that forward in a good way. So that's one, one sort of piece of piece of learning. The other things I'll offer reflecting on international peace building efforts is we have to remember it doesn't matter whether we're talking about Canada or we're talking about any other country. Humans are humans. Humans are anchored in their identity, and unless we get to know what their identity is tied to we're not going to have an effective resolution. So if the identity of a community is tied to land, and we're beaten around the bush and talking about everything except land, that's not a resolution. That's not a authentic, deliberate approach to peace building. So that's one thing. So the second one I would offer is this realization that power is always negotiated. No one gives up power out of the goodness of their heart. That's just not a thing that has ever happened in human history. So when we're thinking about that, we need to think about what is that power tied to? Is it tied to control over certain population? Is it tied to control over a certain natural resource? What is that power tied to? And it is that peace that will be key to any peace conversations. The third one I'll offer is, in order for any peace process to be sustainable, we need to take the time to understand who holds what influence in a community. So if it's women in a community who hold decision making authority on certain matters, and I'm wasting my time talking to everyone except the women, that's not going to result in a sustainable, peaceable solution. So really taking the time to understand who holds influence and also how decisions are made, what is that governance system like in a community? I think, is really, really important. So those would be some of the ideas that I think are very much relevant to international peace building efforts, as well as the Canadian landscape,

Stuart Murray  16:23  
I went on to your website for your company, narratives, Inc, and you're involved in a lot of projects, and I thought it was interesting. Right at the front of your website, it says very clearly, we seek to find and create spaces for respectful dialog, to teach advance diplomacy and break barriers with purpose driven communities. Can you explain that last piece? I find it very powerful, but I'd love in your words to explain when you say break barriers with purpose driven communities, what are you getting at? I

Somia Sadiq  16:54  
think this also ties to why I started narratives in the first place. And for me, one of the key things that I was finding, and I've worked in the space of environmental assessment for for a very long time, and one of the key realizations that I had was the world of infrastructure development, resource you know, resource extraction, land use Planning, community planning, is so intertwined with indigenous lands, indigenous identity, who indigenous people are with that history, but it's not accessible to them for a very long time. All decisions about infrastructure on indigenous lands, community infrastructure, wastewater treatment systems, or anything really, even on reserve lands, have been happening without any indigenous people even at the table for those conversations. Which is not which means that a lot of these, a lot of the development that's happened in Canada over the last 150 years has for the most part, and they're always exceptions, for the most part, happened without having any access for indigenous communities at the table. And this now applies to in an urban setting, we're thinking about indigenous communities. We're thinking about other racialized communities. So it was really important to create space, hold space for communities to negotiate their own sovereignty, their own identity at those tables. So for narratives, that is a really important part of our mission is we're not the ones negotiating on behalf of Communities. We're not the negotiators. We're in the background. We're the technicians who will support the nations, support communities, support any support our clients, for them to be able to negotiate those things, and in order for them to negotiate those it's important for them to know what it is specifically that they're going after. So all of those sort of get packed into that last part of that sentence,

Stuart Murray  19:02  
it's a very powerful statement, so appreciate your your explanation on it. Samia, when you look at how you're using this notion of advancing planning and indigenous led solutions, can you give us a couple of examples of some of the projects that narratives Inc is working on? Yeah. So

Somia Sadiq  19:19  
one of the ones that I would love to talk about is the clan mothers healing village. I've known elder may Louise and her daughter, Jamie for for quite some time. Jamie's also very dear friend. Years ago, Jamie called me and said, you know, we need some help. And of course, when your friend calls and says you need help, you say yes. So that particular project has been a brainchild of elder May and Jamie for decades, they've worked in the space of supporting women and two spirited folks who've experienced sexual violence, experienced human trafficking and exploit. So their vision is to create a healing village, and this is what Jamie called me about. So over the years, that's something that we've supported clan mothers with. And our role is varied when you're when you're in this space that we're in, and you have that mindset of, how can I be helpful. How can I be useful? It's it ends up becoming tasks as assigned. So we supported clan mothers with some project management, with building out engagement programs, so that all of the work that was happening out at the village was going to be rooted in the reality of the people who are going to be using that village, who are going to be in relationship with that village. So the idea with the healing village is it's rooted in matrilineal indigenous solutions. So what does matrilineal indigenous healing look like? And then everything else flows from there. So our role was to essentially bring together, gather insight, gather knowledge from, say, the lived experience Council. Lived experience council would be individuals who've experienced sex trafficking, who've experienced human trafficking. So unless the village and it's construction, it's design, how it's built, how it's used, is tied to those real experiences. It's not going to actually match that work. So that would be one of the projects that comes to mind that was really, really exciting and humbling for us to be

Stuart Murray  21:37  
a part of. Yeah, and it's a great one, I think, in the sense that, you know clan mothers, they have really established you know who they are and their identity and their their ability to create change. And you know their leadership is quiet, not always, but it's quiet and purposeful, because it seems they're very clear on what they want to do, and that really helps to sort of move a project forward. Having said that, you know the number of barriers that will face those kinds of projects because they are outside to some extent, and I'm not, I'm not here to throw shade on any government, provincial legislature, civic or federal. But sometimes when you are looking at getting a project going, there is a government requirement, and that government requirement does not necessarily take into account sumia, what you shared, and that is this notion that it has to be led by those who are going to be experiencing it. You have to understand what the project is and sometimes there's resistance. Can you share any experience you had in in that regard? And I mean, what I'm really asking is, what you're doing. It's all groundbreaking. It's all kind of, you know, charting a new course.

Somia Sadiq  22:53  
So a couple of things come to mind. One is one of the biggest challenges when we're working in this very interesting space of indigenous led solutions is that of lack of capacity at any government's end, lack of understanding at any government's end of what it is that people are trying to do. So we have to be mindful that the bureaucrats who are processing applications, whether that's a grant application proposal, you have it, they've been educated a certain way. They've been given a certain form a checklist, and they've been given here's items that are eligible, and in that eligibility, I don't know where I'm going to find room for a smudge, I don't know where I'm going to find room for a drum, and I don't know how I'm going to find room for a ceremony. It's not in my checklist, and that's where the conversation then ends. So a huge part of our role has been to help those who are looking at funding applications better understand what this is about. So there's a little bit of knowledge sharing that, I think knowledge sharing capacity building that needs to happen at any government's end to recognize what it is that communities are asking for. So there's, I think that piece is really important for us to be able to advance things together. The other piece is this realization that there are always well meaning individuals at the other side, if you will, right. So for any process to be effective, we have to invest time and energy in recognizing who those allies can be, and then help them understand what they can do to push for change within and I think those, some of those strategies, have been really, really helpful in in pushing, pushing the needle forward a little bit, and that applies to you. Any projects really, that nations are trying to undertake. There's a lot of capacity building that needs to happen at the bureaucratic end. And

Stuart Murray  25:08  
you know, one of the things that narratives, Inc does and does extremely well is you get involved with meaningful community engagement. And what does that look like? And I wanted to just get your sense with that concept, because I think community engagement is fantastic, but I want to just put it into kind of a context, if you could from, and I guess I'll say from a human rights lens contact, and that is, you want the community to be engaged, but with social media so alive and very much, I'll say, to some extent, out of control. The essence of community engagement is really, I think, traditional. You come into a room as people, you sit at a table, you have a conversation, a narrative, and you know, you share ideas. How are you dealing with that kind of community engagement, knowing that social media is sort of knocking at the window and really just trying to be disruptive. I

Somia Sadiq  26:03  
think that's one of the biggest challenges of these days. Is how do we manage social media? I would say, instead of trying to manage social media, our strategy, our thinking, should focus on how do we leverage social media. A key realization also is that we're always going to see change, and good community engagement is able to be responsive to those who are who are trying to engage. So if a vast majority of community members are on Facebook and all I'm doing is sending them letters in the mail. That's not good, good community engagement. Nobody is going to be looking at those letters. And by the same token, if I'm trying to send them notices on Instagram, they're not looking at Instagram. So as someone who's wanting to reach out to someone, I need to take the time to understand where those conversations are happening. Are they happening on Facebook. Are they happening on Instagram? Are they happening on X like? What does that look like? So taking the time to understand that the second piece there is any good community engagement has to be multi faceted. So who am I trying to engage with? Am I just talking to the women in the group, in the community? Am I just talking to the two spirited folks in the community? Am I just speaking to the youth in the community? Chances are not really. I want to speak to everybody, so I have to take the time to understand not just how the community as a whole engages, but what are some of those nuances. Maybe it's the maybe it's the grandmothers and the mothers and the aunties who are on Facebook, but everybody under a certain demographic is on Instagram. I need to adopt my strategies to be inclusive of that. What's also important is for any engagement that we're hoping is going to result in meaningful conversation. It has to be trauma informed. And what I mean by that is, when we design an engagement process, we have to recognize what are some of the historical traumas that may have existed in the community, what are some of the intergenerational traumas that have occurred in the community? How can I make sure that I can have these conversations with community members in a manner that is not going to re traumatize them. So designing a good community engagement process is really important. There's an there's an art to it, there's a science to it. It has to be accessible. So putting sending a community a 50 page document on something is probably not effective, but I don't know what effective could look like. So let's ask that question, what would be most helpful for you to be able to unpack all this information that you are expected to review and make an informed decision? So making projects access, accessible for people, is really important to keep that at the heart of designing an engagement process.

Stuart Murray  29:09  
Typically, when you come on a project, I mean, we're always used to having a timeline, and here's what we need to have, and, you know, kind of a measuring stick, so you know where you are in the project and how it works. When I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, working with elders, there were two things. One of them was always to remind myself when I'm having a conversation about the term deadline, you know, we need a deadline by certain time. You know their view of space and time. And I I'm a bit careful when I say there, because I'm sounding like it's a me and navey thing, and I don't mean that at all. I'm just saying the culture they're so not driven by, you know, what time of day? What what time this project has to be done? I mean, they want to get it completed, for sure, but, you know, their approach is so much more spiritual and is. Driven. And you know that that was one thing that I found very, very helpful, just in trying to sort of learn and understand. And the other piece Samia that I found was the power of silence. You know, we would be having conversations, and we would be asking a couple of elders for their thoughts. And, I mean, it would be silent and silent, and, you know, to the point where, you know, I kind of got a bit uncomfortable, because I it's just not how I roll. You know, I wanted to sort of fill that silence, but they reminded me that sometimes the most powerful statement is not in words, but is in silence. And so, you know, is that something that you've you've experienced through your working with with indigenous communities, as you are working through projects. I'll

Somia Sadiq  30:48  
start with silence first, and just echo that silence can be so powerful like silence can be a way to collect thoughts in my role as a as a Peace builder, when I'm bringing together communities from all sorts of different backgrounds that are in conflict, and in some cases, and I use this word very carefully, in some cases, hate each other and do not want to be in the same room together. Some might be blood enemies for generations and what have you. And one of the ways that we would sometimes try to structure dialog is if we're asking a certain question, before we go around in a circle and have people respond to the question, we take a moment of silence so that everyone has a moment to reflect on what it is that they want to bring to the front. What that also does is it allows you to create space for people to actively listen to what is being said in the circle. So silence is very powerful when it comes to having difficult conversations. I think it's a great tool. And I hear you when you said, you know, sometimes you get uncomfortable and want to fill that, fill that void, but just really leaning into silence, being something really powerful, this is the opportunity for people to be reflecting, to think about what they want to say, can go such a long way to get to a resolution a little bit quicker. So I think that's that's really important. The other thing that you were talking about is experience with, you know, time and time and deadlines. One of the things I work very closely with within an Islamic elder who who advises me on so many different things, one of the things he always talks about and reminds us of is some of the key principles of Anishinabe law, which are baby way when a baby, which is take your time and do it right. And he always reminds us that we've been here since time immemorial, and now, if the Crown wants to rush, we're not in any rush, because we've been knocking at the door for a very long time, and so good luck to you if you're rushing now, right? So that that's one piece, the other piece I'll offer also is that in a lot of cases, when the process is done right, it can be expedited. All deadlines can be met, but that's a fair conversation. That's where people are sitting around the table as equals, but if one party has all the resources and access to everything under the sun, and the other party does not, and the only leverage they have is time. They better use that leverage, right? So when we think about deadlines and such, I think that is an important consideration as well. There's a world view piece, absolutely, there's also a broader piece around strategy that I think is really important in any of those conversations. So Samia,

Stuart Murray  34:04  
I've read some things, and I was going to read an article here, and was going to get your thoughts on it. The author of that article, his name is Peter McKenna. He's a professor of political science at the University of Prince Edward Island in Charlottetown. I don't know him, but it was just his article, and he talks about the fact that in Canada, we seem to be ignorant. That was His Word, ignorant to indigenous knowledge, from your experience of what you're seeing and what you're involved in and through your organization of narratives, Inc, how can you, or how are you working with communities and community engagement to sort of bridge that gap so that we're much more aware, much more supportive of indigenous knowledge. I'll

Somia Sadiq  34:45  
offer a couple of thoughts on this one. The first one that comes to mind is in Canada. My observation is our approach to indigenous knowledge, and this is within the context of, you know, impact assessment, and that. Yes, my my discipline, in the context of impact assessment, in the context of planning, the approach to indigenous knowledge is very extractive. And what I mean by that is in in better case scenarios. And this is sort of the sad reality. In better case scenarios, we have practitioners who are educated, rooted in western, centric approaches to science. And if there's a project that's proposed in indigenous territory, and the scientist has been tasked to write a report, they'll write their scientific report. Here's where you'll find the deer, the moose, the blueberries, etc, and then they'll go to a community and say, can you tell me where you find these things? And they'll bring that information back. So they'll extract that from the community, boost their report that goes to the regulator, end of story. So our approach to indigenous knowledge has been very piecemeal, very extractive in nature. And to me, that is a fundamental challenge that is rooted in this assumption that Western science or Western centric approaches are superior, the Western way of knowing and being a superior. And if we flip that around, then we create more space for for both knowledge systems to to exist in harmony. So an example that I can offer here is a few years ago, we started working with four communities in in treaty three. They in treaty three. So the elders talked about my dua kinaka Nagaon, which is an Anishinaabe resource law, and this is for the twinning of the Trans Canada Highway, which has been tried for very, very long time in Ontario, going back 20 years. And every time Ontario tried, didn't work, didn't work, didn't work, and it didn't work because they were not having meaningful conversations with the nations. So a few years ago, the four nations came together and they said, We're going to negotiate as one unit. They signed a unity agreement. They started negotiations with with Ontario Ministry of Transportation Ontario, one of the key things in that negotiations was the elders said our approach to understanding the impacts of this project must be rooted in our way of knowing, in our resource law, as opposed to Ontario's environmental legislation or planning legislation, the outcome of that was that indigenous knowledge was not extracted. It was the nations that built that understanding, that document that outlined how anything would be impacted, intangible terms, at the end of the day, where a report would have been like 100 pages long for here's all the impacts. It was an almost 1000 page document that talked about stories that talked about spirituality. Can Why is deer important? Why is moose important? What is the what is the spirituality, ceremonial power behind water? What does that mean? So when we're talking about better understanding of indigenous knowledge, I think it's really important to bring those two pieces together. We have to respect the system of knowing, this way of knowing, it's

Stuart Murray  38:39  
really about learning, you know, it's really about understanding and taking the time to, you know, ensure that the voices are all at the table. And it doesn't mean that everybody's going to get their way. I mean, that's not necessarily, you know, reasonable, but you know, to be heard, to share your voice, to share your understanding. And most elders that I have spoken to, you know, they're very adamant about that we are stewards of the land, and their approach to being stewards of the land. And I wonder from time to time, Samia, when there are issues, and you know, such as forest fires that happen, are we reaching out to our indigenous people who live on that land, and are we seeking their advice as to how we might mitigate or is this something that is necessary? Or how do they view that? Because I think that you know, those are natural disasters, if I could use the term disaster that happen on an ongoing basis. But I I'm not sure that we are giving opportunities to have that indigenous voice as part of that conversation about how they might be a prevented and I'm not sure if that's the right answer, is prevented, because a lot of times people say you need to burn to get new growth and that sort of thing. But I. Just wonder, you know, have you experienced Samia through conversations that those opportunities are starting to become more that the voices of indigenous elders or people that are involved in some of these issues are becoming more and more welcomed into that conversation? Yes,

Somia Sadiq  40:17  
there have starting to happen, and there needs to be a lot more of it. And when we're having conversations around climate change, one of the key things for us to be mindful of is, how do we what does it mean to build climate resilience? And in order to build climate resilience, we need to think about climate resilient infrastructure. What does climate and resilient infrastructure look like? What are some of the adaptation strategies that we can be thinking about? What infrastructure in existing communities is more vulnerable to two impacts of climate change, for example, and again, if we're if these conversations are about indigenous lands, then indigenous communities absolutely must be involved. So one example that comes to mind here is, and it may sound like a bit of a crass example, but to say you're redecorating your house and say, you know you have, it's yourself, your partner, and you have three kids, and each of the kids has had their own room since they were two years old, and you have a certain style that you like, and you have certain colors that you prefer as a family, and you love to host. So these are some of the requirements for you as a family unit of five. And say you engage me as your designer to help plan what this renovation is going to look like. And I come through the door and I tell you, it's good that all three kids have their own rooms, but guess what? We're going to put all three kids in one room. We're going to put you and your partner in the other room. And I hear you on what colors are your preference, but actually purple is the cheapest color right now, so we're going to go with purple. And also, I know you love to host, but it's not in our budget. So either, either no renovation, or you're going to be living in a two bedroom house with no place to host that is purple. And if we take a moment to think about just how absurd that is, it would be unacceptable. We would think it's a violation of our human rights if something like that happened. But this is how planning has traditionally happened in communities. Decisions are made without any engagement from communities, so we're starting to shift that. And when it comes to climate conversations, climate resilience adaptation, it's improving, but we need a lot more funding for nations to build their strategies themselves, for nations to think about what resilience looks like. How can they protect their infrastructure? How can they train youth to be the guardians for for everything related to land stewardship moving forward. So there's lots of opportunities, and I think a lot of nations are leveraging those opportunities, and I think we need a lot more of that. When

Stuart Murray  43:12  
Idle No More started their movement and became very public. And you know, would go to see Portage and Maine, and there would be a public demonstration and the outcry and people, you know, upset, etc. And you know, to some extent, I understand that, but the comment I always try to say to people is, you know, before you start to judge what it is that's taking place at Portage and Main with that public demonstration, which is very much their right to do, anybody's right to do. Have you read a treaty? Have you read what a treaty document is? Because I do think that, you know, part of the education of any student in Canada should be to read a treaty, because treaties are very, as you know, very simple, very direct and very clear. And the challenge is that of the signatories on the bottom of the treaty, there's certain elements of that society, ie the commercial side of footing, pipelines and different things through First Nations land that is being looked at, but is the other side of the commitment to First Nations? Is that being upheld. And I think you know the answer when you look at a treaty is it clearly is not. And I think one of the challenges is that if we understood the basic of a treaty, which is really a document that talks about, how do we work together and get along, coming back to this notion that we're all stewards of the land, I still think that there would people who would be upset, and I get it, and I get it, and that's just part of human nature, but I think if people, at least would take the time to understand what it is that they're trying to bring attention to through the Idle No More movement is something that I think we could all learn from

Somia Sadiq  44:56  
now. Thank you, Stuart for that, and I would just. Echo what you've said. I think the right to peaceful assembly is a really important right. And I'll go back to something I said earlier today, which is no one gives a power out of the goodness of their heart any rights that you look around and see. So anyone who's sitting in a vehicle at the lights frustrated about this protest, should look around and see all the rights and luxuries and privileges they have and offer gratitude to everybody who has undertaken the protest and given up the comforts of their living to go out and raise their voice and be brave about it. So I think there, you know, we need to start thinking about those opportunities as well to to learn. The other thing that I want to also echo here is a few months ago, I was at at an event, and there was a presentation being made about opportunities for collaboration, or opportunities for reconciliation. And the presenters said to and there were lots of indigenous elders and in the audience, and they said a few times to the to the elders, that we're here to listen. We're here to listen. And on the surface, it's a great it's a very powerful statement that we're here to listen. One of the elders responded to that and said, We are tired of talking. We are tired of telling you again and again and again. So it's now your responsibility to have the conversation amongst yourselves. Figure out what you want to do and tell us how you're moving the needle forward. So we also have to be mindful of the absolute fatigue, the RE traumatization, the frustration that happens when we're asking people to continuously talk about their trauma. And that historical relationship with Canada, historical relationship with the industry. We know what resolutions look like. We have the calls to action. We have leaders telling us every day what economic reconciliation looks like. We just have to do it. So to ask them again, hey, can you tell me for the 100th time is not an effective approach?

Stuart Murray  47:13  
Yeah, no. Again. You know the learning part of this is deep, and it's there's a lot to learn, for sure. And I think, you know, one of the things that, again, I took away from your your website and, and, and some of the work that you and your team are doing is you're looking at how to best advance that conversation. And I've said before, just to divert for a second, Samia, that, you know, we do these land acknowledgements. And, you know, once we started to do land acknowledgements before meetings, it had a sense of purpose, and a lot of people were trying to, you know, Anishinabe, am I saying that word? Right? Am I saying but I wonder, after time, as we do the land acknowledgements, and I've had this conversation just to get thoughts from other elders, does it start to become similar to when you get onto an airplane and they're giving you instructions about safety instructions, and everybody's on their Blackberry, looking at their phone or the newspaper or whatever, and talking to somebody. Are we just checking a box by doing a land acknowledgement at the beginning of a meeting, or are we actually sort of stopping to say, Do we understand what it is that we're actually talking about here? You know, so I'd love to get your thoughts on how we can do a better job of bringing that conversation from a human rights perspective into our daily lives. What

Somia Sadiq  48:31  
a great question, and I appreciated how you tied that to being in an airplane and listening to to those announcements. I think what's really important there is a realization that reconciliation is not one entity's journey. When we talk about peace building, when we you know, whether that's globally or in a community, or we talk about reconciliation, I think we have to realize that these are multi faceted responsibilities. There's governments that hold responsibility, there's politicians who hold responsibility, there's community leaders, and then there's individual the rest of us who hold that responsibility as well. So I can't sit here and do nothing and then expect reconciliation to happen and then complain that, oh, we're not doing enough, yeah, but what am I doing to do my part on the reconciliation journey? I was in a conversation recently where this was a peace dialog that I was hosting, and one of the participants, the question I asked the group was, what feels broken to you in your world right now, because the next question was going to be, what are we going to do as individuals to fix it? And when I asked that question, one of the participants in that circle said, we have done we have failed our grandchildren. And we said, you know, I said, please say more. And he went. On to talk about how we have done a really good job of reminding people of what their rights are and how to fight for those rights. We have forgotten to tell people about their responsibilities, and what is really important in the reconciliation journey is to own that that responsibility as as individuals I carry that responsibility as an individual just as much as my politician does or as my Prime Minister does, and I think reclaiming that responsibility is going to do us wonders when we're trying to figure out what role we play on this journey together.

Stuart Murray  50:39  
I love that Samia, the responsibility part of it, I think, does not get spoken about enough. Because one of the challenges when you start to get into having responsibility sometimes gets misconstrued, is, does the responsibility mean that I have to give something up, that I have to sort of give something away, and therefore, you know, somebody is impacting what was mine is now longer, you know, it's more shared responsibility, and what does that look like? And that, I think, is again, part of this bigger education that we need to have in terms of understanding that these 94 calls to action, unless we look at those in a very meaningful way, and get very real about how we can as we, as a country, as a nation, how we can embrace that. It's such a tough battle, because I think when it came out, it had a lot of as it should, a lot of publicity. And of course, we are thrilled and always very proud that Murray Sinclair was a good Manitoban. It was so involved in that, but it's almost like it if we don't talk about it on an ongoing basis, like almost every day, Samia, the volume gets turned down a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, until the point it's just, you know, where have we got and where are we going? And I think that is such a such a big question. So thank you for your time. And I want to just kind of you know, as we look at kind of hitting an off ramp in the conversation, I want to just get a sense from you how you think we can do a better job of advancing that issue of responsibility, from a human rights perspective, as we are looking at this whole issue around the understanding of the importance of community engagement, land use, all of those elements that I think are very, very much in the front of conversation today.

Somia Sadiq  52:31  
I think the solution is in continuing to have the conversation, is to not let it go in the background. And we saw a little bit of this happening with denialism of Indian residential school systems. So you know, from from not talking about it to it was talked about a lot, everybody was listening. And then as soon as the volume got turned down, we saw an increase in denialism. So I think it's really important in our journey as Canadians to continue to have that conversation, to keep this front and center, and with that conversation, to also have conversations about our personal responsibility. So what is my responsibility as a Canadian? What is my responsibility in my home? What are some of the dinner table conversations that are very uncomfortable, where so and so from my family has some very inappropriate views here. How can I adjust those views? What can I do at the dinner table? What can I do in my workplace? What can I do with my friends? What can I do with my employer and my leaders and so on. So I think that conversation needs to keep happening, and with that conversation, accessibility of that conversation is also important. So we're not saying to anyone here the 94 calls to action. Tomorrow morning, you need to check off all 94 boxes. Go through the 94 calls to action, see which ones you can start with, and then one step at a time. This is a long journey, and we need to stay with it as as uncomfortable as it may be. So I would just encourage everyone to just recognize that this is not this is a marathon here, but we need to start somewhere, and if we start we can stay with it over, the long term. Samia

Stuart Murray  54:21  
Sadiq, founder and CEO of narratives Inc, thank you for your leadership. Thank you for advancing this conversation on the human zone right podcast, and continued success in what you do, you've got another person that's going to be following what it is that you do and what you're all about. So I appreciate your time on this podcast. Thank you so very much.

Somia Sadiq  54:41  
Thank you so much, Stuart, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.

Matt Cundill  54:44  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davie mute. By Doug Edmond, for more, go to Human Rights hub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.