Theodore Biggs-Engel on Systems Mapping and Gender-Affirming Care

Stuart Murray  0:00  
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover)  0:19  
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray  0:29  
systems mapping is a visual and analytical tool used to represent and understand the components, relationships and dynamics within complex systems. It helps individuals and organizations identify how various elements of a system interact, influence one another and contribute to broader outcomes. This approach is commonly used in problem solving, strategic planning and systems thinking. So is there a relationship between systems mapping and human rights? Well, my guest, Theodore Biggs angle, is going to address that very question. Theodore Biggs angle, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you so much for having me, Theodore, tell us a little bit about you and what it is that you're doing.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  1:19  
Yeah, I'm Theo. I'm born and raised Winnipeg, Manitoba. I identify as a transgender male and part of the queer community. I'm university student at the University of Manitoba in my fourth year, studying health sciences. And my focus regarding that is not only pursuing the medicine aspect of community health and wellness, but trying to bring in perspectives from queer identity. So a lot of my work and research, especially my math Assistant Project, which I'm sure we'll go over surrounds looking at the barriers to gender affirming care within not only the medical system, but in how the social interactions in all aspects of stakeholders and systems work together and interconnect in many different ways. So I'm also the president of the rainbow Pride Center at the University of Manitoba, and I'm the queer representative on the union board of directors at the university as well. So I try to use this position, especially the position of power I have on the board, to try to bring perspective and voices to those queer individuals that don't always have the privilege to be doing so, so

Stuart Murray  2:21  
how was it that you got involved with using, I'll just call it and again, am I using the right term? If I call it map the system? Yeah, yeah. Tell us a little bit about from a human rights perspective. How did you use that for the project that you entered into a Canadian competition? So

Theodore Biggs-Engel  2:39  
the project, in general, it's honestly started as a, just a course project I had last year with one of my professors, Dr Mehta. We had the option to submit it to this, this national map the system competition. So it started with understanding what mapping that system means. So we picked our own system. I picked something that I of course relate with when it comes to gender affirming care as a transgender person. So going over that and then, instead of typical case competitions, go over just immediately finding solutions. But when it comes to mapping and map the systems, it more focuses on looking at the barriers in the way specifically, instead of just giving automatic solutions. So it gives you kind of a more thorough and detailed understanding of the issue that you're presented with. So with this project, I was able to visually and also written, look into this issue, or the aspects of gender affirming care, and how it's not, of course, not going to be a one size fits all solution, which is the case for a lot of human rights issues. So it plays into, definitely the the aspect of human rights, because a lot of people just want to find solutions, like there's solving these issues, it is the focus, but it's going to be difficult to even get there if we don't look at what barriers are actually in the way. And there's going to be a multitude of those for any human rights issue. So with the map the system project, I was able to really look at the different entities and barriers in the way that, even as someone who's accessed gender affirming care wasn't completely certain on I was able to look in like governmental systems, medical systems, social issues, so it just gives even the general public a much better understanding of the issues worth dealing with, and then can kind of propel us in the right directions and know which issue or Which barrier to specifically start with for

Stuart Murray  4:21  
my edification and for listeners, let's just kind of clarify the difference between gender and sex, so just from your perspective. So please, let's talk about that from gender and then, and then sex.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  4:35  
Yeah, I think that's a super important thing to go over. And it's that's part of the huge misunderstanding with even gender affirming care, but just in the general population, but when it comes to gender, gender is more based on the social construct of individual identity. So that is something that regards your appearance or your names or your your legal name and your identity. But when it comes to sex, that is specifically the biological. Aspect. So not only does that entail what genitalia you're born with, but also goes into the hormones and chromosomes that you're born with. So that is also a pretty complex thing as well, but it's important to be able to separate that sex is specifically the biological aspect, that's what you're assigned at birth, and then gender is that social aspect, where you're fitting in and how you identify yourself. Hopefully that that clears out there. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  5:22  
from an educational standpoint, I think as you're going through the conversation, I think it's, it's super important. Theodore, why is, you know, the the issue of gender affirming why is that important now and and why is it important for those people that would be listening, say those for people here in Winnipeg or in Manitoba

Theodore Biggs-Engel  5:41  
more than ever, a gender affirming care. And gender affirmation is at the forefront of especially modern media and understanding of that. And the biggest issue I find surrounding that is the misinformation and just kind of social stigma and fear surrounding what gender affirming is care is. So the focus and what I wanted to start my presentation with with the map assistant project, was that gender affirming care is not just the medical transition that comes with being transgender or gender affirming care. That is a very big misconception, is that gender affirming care equals the medical aspects. So that's like the surgeries or the hormones related to that. So we, I was able to break it down into a few different categories. And though it's it is medical, it can be for some people, but also it's the it's how people appear, how they cut their hair, over the clothes they dress, and it also includes the legal sense of what your legal name or legal sex is. Also there's like psychological care, like going to therapy or or support groups. So it's well beyond just the medical approach to that. So that was really important to be able to push across the table, because that is where a lot of that misinformation is stemming from the dangers and and uncertainty surrounding that medical affirming care. So I wanted to be able to explain to everybody that a gender affirming care goes well beyond that, though, just as important, but it covers basic human rights essentially, which kind of hopefully ties in with this podcast, but the human rights of just doing the simplest things as gender affirming care is essentially life saving care for a lot of individuals that are transgender or gender non conforming, where it's the gender affirming care is calling someone the right name or the right pronouns or getting to pick the clothes you wear, and being able to do that is is going to prevent any psychological distress that may come along with not feeling related to the sex or gender you were assigned at birth with. So it ultimately is necessary for any individual experiencing any disconnect with their gender and sexual identity as it's life saving, but also it is coming along with a lot of that stigma that it has to be that medical approach,

Stuart Murray  7:42  
right? And I think one of the, one of the great things that you did, and I I want to, and I'll make sure, in our in our episode notes, Theodore, that we make a reference to your presentation that is online that you did for the Canadian competition, because you explained so things very, very well there. And as you and I talked about just before we hit the record button, mapping the system. There's a lot of visuals that I think are helpful, and in this podcast, being an audio podcast, a little bit more challenging to do so, but for listeners, I'm going to make sure they get a chance to go and watch your presentation, which was very, very impressive, by the way, you're a great presenter. Thanks very much. Theodore, one of the elements that you touched on. And I think, you know, part of the whole issue around a lot of, I shouldn't say the whole issue, but a lot of the issues around human rights is a lot of education, you know, and understanding. And so you as an advocate and an educator in your own right, you know, you broke down some of the barriers, may be. And you you talked about some of the categories being social, behavioral, medical and psychological. And you know, I appreciated that, because I think one of the challenges through the education of the whole process for trans people is to look at a bigger and more holistic and human side that is simply more than just the hormonal or, you know, just that, that whole physical change. And I think that, you know, what you did in such a beautiful way was kind of present that more. And I'll just use the lens from a human rights perspective the importance of it. So maybe share a little bit more about why that was important to you and why you wanted to sort of break down in those different areas

Theodore Biggs-Engel  9:24  
as a representative, especially with my university, but also just a social figure now, related with my presentations in the university too, but laughter, researching and putting in this effort to this project that is, That is really when I started to see and understand how important it is, at least to me, and I didn't realize how much passion I had for just the specifics of queer healthcare and queer wellness. One of the biggest things was seeing people that didn't have the opportunities to be sharing their voice and their their needs to systems like student. Student Unions or even healthcare professionals, they weren't able to share their needs as an individual. So I was given this option or this opportunity on this platform for the project, and then also as a representative in the university to be that voice for the people that aren't always heard. And people have started connecting with me and reaching out to me through office hours I may have through the university, sharing their experiences and concerns regarding their identity and how there might be barriers in the way for them, just with the university even, or even health care. And that is such a huge motivator for me to be able to be this advocate for them, on on this large level, I've been so gratefully given, and that just gives me a lot of motivation, and it's super fulfilling to be able to hear that people are appreciative I'm not I'm definitely not the only person, or will I be the last to talk about these queer issues, but knowing that I can represent people and start to kind of push for change and just know that we're here and we're not going anywhere, was definitely and still is one of the biggest things for me with with doing research and presenting continuously on gender affirming care and pushing that education level essentially, because after learning that, one of the biggest barriers was that just there just was a lack of education on a gender affirming care and the queer identity and that being such a simple fix, I thought that we might as well just start addressing that, Even if it's on a microscopic level, started with class presentations and papers, and now on this national level, people are going to be listening. And I've had different organizations reach out to to get me to help them with maybe creating workshops for either practitioners or healthcare workers, even educators, on how they can better their allyship, whatever level you're on, whether you are in high school or graduated high school, all the way to the level of having a PhD, everyone, there's always going to be room for education on every topic there is, but especially with queer identity, like the education doesn't just end when pride month ends, when classes end. You just it's one of those things that is constantly evolving and changing over time. So it's really important to keep that door open. So just being a little bit pushy as well with a bunch of different occupations, and just know that you have to keep them an open mind for everyone's wellness, not just those transgender individuals, but for the operations of any organization like schools or healthcare that just starting opening the door to listening to some of those transgender voices and queer voices that I can help amplify will be the difference to that the human right that is gender affirming care.

Stuart Murray  12:28  
So through your work that you've done in your research and your presentations, Theodore, give me an example of some people or organizations that have reached out to you to say, help us understand or give us an opportunity to engage in the conversation of which you are leading.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  12:43  
I also certainly give a couple examples I like. I'm also a teaching assistant at the University as well, within the Faculty of Health Sciences, and I've had a prof reach out to me. I've been doing some work, and one of the assignments was related to gender identity, and one of the students was really struggling to share a discussion post on queer identity, and was not quite using the right wording, and there it came off as a little bit standoffish. And I let the prof know, and I just thought it maybe wasn't appropriate the way that they were formatting it. And she's She asked if I could help just guide that student a little bit. And then we've been working together with that prof now for a couple years, and I'm able to just kind of help with guiding some assignments writing or making sure that we're specifying, like, for example, gender versus sex when it comes to to, like, just class outlines, um, really basic things that you maybe won't think about, but will make the difference long term. And then also with just the university in general, the board or the directors, just reaching out to me to see how they can better their services. How can we what they can they do to make students feel more comfortable, like the Student Counseling Center we have at the university well as well, has reached out and said that students are grateful for the space that we have for them, and they want to know what they can also do to not only support us, but the students coming in, how can they better their allyship? I've spoken with clinic community health as well in the past, after my presentation about my research and touch base to see what they're working on, they have workshops they already do for practitioners when it comes to being more of an ally or just implementing gender affirming care to general practice. So I've also met with them in the past as well, but there is constantly opportunities, and it didn't, I'm grateful it didn't just end. You know, a couple months after my presentation was over, that people are still reaching out just for support. So I, yeah, I've had people from universities, but also, like the community services, reach out just to kind of touch base and see if we're all on the same page. And if not, how can we can improve either side with that

Stuart Murray  14:40  
for listeners that might be saying, you know, the you're talking about gender affirming care is, for those that might ask the question, what is the when you're talking about care, you know, wellness and health for people, what is the difference, you know, between sort of just health care and care and gender affirming care? Health

Theodore Biggs-Engel  15:00  
care itself really surrounds the idea of that, that medical or psychological approach to going to the doctor's office, going to the clinic, your regular checkups, that's what I at least objectively view as the health care aspect of queer health, and that can also include gender affirming care. So they are separate, but also extremely related. So gender affirming care is also related to health care. So that that medical aspect we were talking about, but it's also a concept and framework surrounding all practices, including health care, how you can be a better ally. So even just listening to transgender people's stories and needs, calling people their preferred names and pronouns, that itself is gender affirming care. So bringing that into, for example, the healthcare sense, your doctor being willing to give you the option to to declare your your preferred pronouns or gender identity, that is gender affirming care. In addition to the medical aspects of maybe your doctor helping you with hormone treatment, that's gender affirming care. But even just your doctor using your name is gender affirming care. So really, gender affirming care can be a framework or idea that people can base their their actions upon, and as well as being an actual process that people can go through to better align themselves with their identity, one

Stuart Murray  16:17  
of the other things that you talked about in your presentation, I'd love to explore with you a bit more is some of the gaps and the levers of change. And you know, just you on a slide you had put K to 12 school policies and infrastructure. I'm going to review them, and then maybe we can sort of go through them, and you can explain the revised reference approach the health care policies and procedures and primary care providers. So Theodore, let's just kind of look at the K to 12 school policies and infrastructure. What? What do you look at there

Theodore Biggs-Engel  16:50  
that can cover a few different things when I think about that. One thing I think of is something kind of going on in Canada, at least, is the kind of pronoun policy that is going on where teachers and school representatives have to ask parental permission to use a different name or pronouns than what the student is assigned. So when it comes to K to 12 policies ensuring that all these students have bodily autonomy and their own right to identity, regardless of being a minor, but that means using what name they would like to be referred to as, and refers to what pronouns they would like to be referred to as. Now that is not a drastic change. That's not a permanent change. So there is a lot of fear mongering surrounding what that means with these policies. But when it's just calling a student the name they want to be called, that is just affirming, and not even just being transgender, but just being called a name that makes you feel good. So when K to 12 policies, I think about that, the parental policy with the names and the pronouns, I also think about what kind of a curriculum is being taught? Are we being taught that queer identities are around us, that they exist, or are they kind of being swept under the rug a little bit? Is that something we're willing to be open and willing to open that conversation with students, and it's also depends on the age group as well. It's going to be different from everyone aged K to 12, but being able to include queer stories and histories in the curriculum, no just having an awareness is going to make especially queer students, or any students really just aware and more comfortable with identity and understanding, instead of being let off after graduation with not knowing, not understanding what that identity means within themselves or other people, and maybe creating this implicit bias by accident. And lastly, maybe one of those things I would, I would think about, is to kind of goes into the name and pronoun policy, but when it comes to, like, school uniforms, being able to pick which uniform you want to wear, Which team do you want to play on, like the boys versus girls team, that's always, I remember that was always the case and, you know, primary school, but giving those people the option for or even the best case scenario, may be just eliminating that separating or segregating those two genders all the time, especially, I think of like in gym classes. So not always separating the boys and the girls, you know, and that's in the case of, like the gym classes, but also the uniforms and any other kind of aspect within school, like separating any groups on the basis of gender is can. Can be difficult for students, maybe struggling with their gender identity, or being able to just understand that there is more than just boys and girls. So it goes everywhere, from just letting the students identify how they want to identify, all the way to including queer stories and media. And those are what I would pinpoint specifically with those K to 12 policies I was talking about, for example,

Stuart Murray  19:38  
and you probably experienced this in your own life. If there was, I don't know why they would ever be, but yet, you know, so say there was a, you know, set of grade three. There was a they wanted to do something in class and wanted to do something boys against the girls. You know, that used to be, again, from, from the way, you know, years ago, there. Was no question about that. I mean, it's just kind of what, what was happening in today's world as you're talking about, how would you see that playing out if somebody was, I didn't identify as either one of the sexes, that they wanted to put you in, how would you see that playing out

Theodore Biggs-Engel  20:17  
first? Yeah, certainly. So, so in the sense, how that may may be adjusted to better that situation? Yeah, I don't see any really benefit to doing that in at least not even like in the gym classes. There might be different abilities within the sexes, for sure, but it's not really contributing anything to that, like their learning differences isn't on the basis of sex, so even if it's just splitting the group randomly, or be picking your own groups, but it's it's like it's not really benefiting. So we're looking at the bigger picture. It's not in a sense, where it's inherently bad to do that, to inherit, to separate those two groups, that it's not necessarily doing much good. So it wouldn't make any difference than separating the group on the basis of the color of T shirt they're wearing. So that's what I would, I would think of with that. So it's, I'm not trying to completely eliminate the ideas of keeping people separated or organization, but just trying to bring a new perspective to that and just know there, even if it's just one that of 100 students that maybe feel a little bit uncomfortable or unsure about that, why not just do it a different way? Yeah,

Stuart Murray  21:19  
and I think that's, you know, again, just different thinking, right to the same process, just bringing different thinking. I guess the issue, when you look at that, I know that, you know, again, I'm not a human rights expert Theodore, but I but, you know, when I spent some time the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, one thing I did learn is that there are such a thing as children's rights that's codified in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, although it's a term, but there is no such thing as parental rights, right? Yeah, that's just that they don't exist. Yeah, absolutely. So it's just interesting in terms of the conversation, however, especially around what's happening in schools, that that seems to be a placeholder that people sort of go to, yeah, and, you know, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  22:02  
It's definitely somewhat of a modern idea, I think. And it's, it's great that you say that there are children's rights, and looking at, you know, the Declaration of Human Rights, that parental rights, the concept I can understand, where they're coming from, and and that there is something that comes along with that, but it's more in the sense of your parental right, of keeping your child safe. Your right, your responsibility. It's more so parental responsibility to be a representative and also take care of your child. Literally. It seems like this is a new wave of things coming along with just having this control over your children and not really wanting them to have that public education on the different if there's different identities or even beliefs outside of what your household has, it's so important for everybody to have an understanding of what's around them, different cultures, different identities, like learning styles, putting them in this box is not going to be helpful for them to be able to explore themselves or understand either others, or be able to leave school with an open Mind and make connections, but I think we saw maybe something somewhat similar in the past with parental rights. It's it may be a drastic thing to say, but when people didn't want their students or their their white children going to school with people of other cultures or identities or other races. So it's there wasn't specifically called parental rights, but wanting control over the people your children are around, just on the basis of fear. And it always kind of goes back to just the misunderstanding, but it's now ingrained in this fear the parental rights movement. I try to understand where they're coming from with wanting to protect their children, but it ultimately comes down to just wanting too much control, and if it's not doing any like physical harm, if you're just educating yourself, it's, it's strange to seem that people would be afraid of the education on different identities or or stories, or if children just want to use their preferred name or pronouns, if their children, your child is making that choice, it's, it's not permanent at all, like it would. It's just exploring yourself. I'm not sure why there's this idea that it's doing so much harm. Theodore

Stuart Murray  24:05  
the other what you talked about the revised research approach in terms of how people are researching this issue, explain that

Theodore Biggs-Engel  24:12  
regarding research in general, not even specifically gender affirming care, but when you're doing any sort of scientific, qualitative or quantitative research. But it goes back as well to just a lot of research being based on the white male, the white cis male, and how, even in the medical sense, how that person is affected. So being able to now do research making sure you have, in the sense of participants, that you are having the representation of all identities, even in the like, specifically in scientific point of view, as a health sciences major, but it goes into everything, but being sure that you're having a representative of all identities, and then also if it's also completely up to participants, as usual, if they're willing to share that information, but if you're able to get a variety of participants and see if they're a transgender or not. And being able to know how it differentiates between the sex, but even within that, the chrome chromosomes and hormones and and everything there, but being able to know how different things affect different people. And then I gave the example in my project, in my map Assistant Project, about how it wasn't until 2021 that Statistics Canada gave the option for people to self identify as transgender. So we're just we're experiencing this gap in data surrounding that identity, and then that also then flows into how much we're able to to fund and put aside for gender affirming care. We're not sure what those numbers are. So in the sense of just obtaining demographic data, but also in when it comes to research, knowing how different people are affected on different basis, giving other people an idea of that as well. So specific in this, the scientific sense goes into all but if we're able to get numbers and data, is important to kind of specify, just so we have that representation, really. And

Stuart Murray  25:55  
I mean, you kind of maybe touched a little bit on the issue around healthcare policies and procedures, I mean understanding and making it more when you go and see a doctor or a medical person, that you're respected is for who you are, and that you have that understanding. And as you say a lot of the time, and you use the term, you know that that some of this is from a white, male or cisgender perspective, and again, you're the expert on this. If anybody said, Well, what does CIS mean? Yeah,

Theodore Biggs-Engel  26:26  
cisgender essentially means that you identify with the sex you're born with, in opposed to the opposite, being transgender. So myself identify as male, but was born with the female sex, so I would be transgender, but someone who was assigned male at birth and still identify as male. That is what cisgender would mean. Yeah, okay. No,

Stuart Murray  26:43  
appreciate that. When I do these podcasts Theodore, sometimes there's a lot of acronyms that people are so comfortable with, but a listener might not know. And so this one in particular. So thank you so much. Yeah, you know, just one of the other areas you talked about, sort of in terms of gaps and levers of change was primary care providers. What were you looking at there in terms of that aspect? For sure.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  27:03  
Yeah. So when I think of the primary care providers in association with gender affirming care, I think about their duty as a care provider, being able to provide basic care, like you're going to your gender general care provider for basic things, you twist your ankle, you have a cold, just a regular visit. It's one of those basic, general things that you're seeing this practitioner for. So ideally, you should be able to go see your practitioner for general things that should be including things like gender affirming care. It's in I think a good amount of general healthcare providers are educated in what gender affirming care is, but a lot of them are also not. So when it comes to primary care providers, I think the goal would be that they're all all have the minimum expectation or guidelines on what the queer identity is the health care that transgender people may need in comparison to cisgender people. So getting to a point where they can provide basic gender affirming care, instead of having to kind of push those patients or people even to a community based research or community based health care service. So being able to provide the basics of gender affirming care, even like the the concept of a hormone therapy, is also very basic, but any aspect surrounding transgender care is often kind of pushed to these community clinics, and then it just creates a huge wait list and backlog, and it's causing more issue than it would to just make sure that general healthcare practitioners are educated on not only the transgender identity, but what the different needs for transgender people and queer people are versus cisgender and heterosexual.

Stuart Murray  28:35  
When you agreed to do this, of super delighted that you came on to this podcast, Theodore, as I say, I watched your presentation that you did on the for the Canadian map, the system project. What struck me though, when I Googled system mapping, gender affirmation, what seemed to come up more was attacks, you know, Google like, there's a lot of stuff that come up, but attacks on gender affirming care. Why? What are some of the attacks on gender affirming care, and why is that happening in 2025

Theodore Biggs-Engel  29:06  
I wish I had all the answers on why, why there's so many just negative perspectives on gender affirming care. And it just really, I think it goes back to really just the misunderstanding and misinformation that is just being promoted a lot, especially in modern day politics across like even the continent, that gender affirming care is this dangerous thing, that it's attacking our children, that it's XYZ, it's permanent, whatever. But all of those can be pinpointed, even if the basis of it has some truth to it, if you dig beyond that, it's just based in just misinformation and a bias, but they will pick different things to really be worried about. Sometimes it'll be the children, sometimes it'll be how it's dangerous, but if you look into any of those attacks specifically on gender affirming care, you're able to debunk it immediately. It just takes a few minutes of your own research to understand. And that it's just a lot of fear mongering that is going on. I think that people are unsure, and they're worried about their children, or they think they're there's taxpayer money going to it. There's a lot of reasons that they're worried about it, but ultimately, there is no really grounds for the fear that is that is going on with it, like, even after, of course, I have a bias in understanding it. But I, like in all my research, I really try to see both sides to many of the arguments there are. But ultimately, it just takes a little bit of time to look into that and realize it's just a basis and a lot of fear mongering, but it is not often rooted in a truth. Yeah. I

Stuart Murray  30:37  
mean the dissenting opinions on so many things, on human rights, you know, I think they have to be well, they must be taken seriously because, you know, everybody has an opinion. I think it just, it's whether it's done respectfully or not. I mean, there can be disagreements, and I think that that is really part of where I think we're starting to take some of these disagreements and getting hardened positions versus saying, okay, you know, I'm learning something here, and it may not be at the end of the day what I agree to, but you know, it's not about me, it's about somebody else. Maybe it's about you. And so how do we not look at that? And I just find, you know the notion that there's these attacks coming, I guess you know the notion. And I just wanted to, I want to talk about a movie in a second with you, Theodore, but you have lived this. You're an advocate, you're an expert, you're an educator. You've done research, you've done presentations. What has it been like for you as a Winnipeg or as a man of Tobin growing up as a trans man, I

Theodore Biggs-Engel  31:43  
like to consider myself a very lucky and blessed to be in the position I am in a first world or developed country, being having the opportunity and living in, you know, a more affluent neighborhood, going to a secondary school. I'm very grateful for the path that I've had and the privilege that I have, especially as a white person, for it being as easy as it was, even though that being a queer person, it adds barriers to your life, but I have had such supportive teachers and friends and family that has I absolutely would not have gotten to places without the support I have in my life, but it definitely You have to have a little bit more. I don't know how to say it, but you got to motivate yourself a little bit, and you have to find something, something worth living for a lot of the time. I do consider myself lucky and blessed, but there, of course, it comes with these barriers in the way that there's always going to be someone that disagrees with you or doesn't believe in your identity, or someone who is just afraid or frustrated that with whoever you are. I, of course, I will run into it sometimes, especially as the advocate I am, and people knowing that I am openly this queer person. A lot of a lot of queer people don't want to openly be queer like especially transgender individuals, there's a huge notion of passing, which just means that you people believe that you were born cisgender when you're not. So there's a huge notion in that, but I've taken it upon myself to not make that my my purpose to to pass as cisgender. I want people to know that I'm queer. I want people to know that I'm transgender. I want I want cisgender people to know, and I want transgender people to know, because people are going to feel alone. And I there's been times in my life where I felt I was alone and I didn't have anybody to relate to being the only queer person in high school, or whatever it may be. But it's now I feel my duty to make people aware that you're never alone. Wherever you may be, there is always going to be a person who supports you, a queer person, a story, though, everybody's different and unique. I have found so much love and support in the friendships I've had with other queer individuals, just guiding me to to be myself and support others. But I think community has definitely been the biggest thing, and and the University and my friends and partners have have definitely been able to do that for me, and it's, yeah, it's it, of course, there's going to be difficulties, but I really hope that moving forward in the future, that that's just going to be become less and less. You

Stuart Murray  34:09  
know, you talked about some of the provinces in Canada, and then you, you did a federal overlay in your again, in your presentation, I talked about where some of the risks were and some of the some of the opportunities were, if you were to look Theodore in your your research is there? Is there a country? Is there? And I'll just start with a country that you would say that Canada should look at modeling because of how they have dealt with affirmation of gender care,

Theodore Biggs-Engel  34:37  
yeah, I don't know if I can say with certainty, I look so much on Manitoba and Canada specifically, it's, I don't do enough comparisons to the other countries. If I had to, I would probably see European countries that already have a go on universal or a health care like Sweden. At least. I don't see any countries that are on a much higher level that Canada is on when it comes to gender affirming care. I think. Most of the time we're very similar. I don't see anything any countries or anything like that so far that we need to be looking up to. But I think, if anything, just connecting and understanding what's working for them and what's working for us. So I think that's what I would say for that.

Stuart Murray  35:13  
And again, my approach always asks the question about what's important to Winnipeggers and Manitobans, which is what you're focused on. But sometimes you hear about other, you know, areas, countries who just seem to be, you know that we can always look at as as a way to learn from because they've had a chance to go through this in advance. You know, there's nothing wrong with Canada being a leader in this regard, right? I mean, maybe that's, that's a good thing I mentioned. I want to talk about a movie because I thought was interesting that you had mentioned for if people were interested in in watching, you know, Will and Harper take a road trip. You know, I've got my own thoughts on it, but, but why did you pick that one? Specifically? I

Theodore Biggs-Engel  35:49  
That's a good question. You know, I saw the trailer for it a while ago, and I just thought it was going to be silly, like the first few minutes. I it's, it's Will Ferrell, you know, I, I was expecting, and I did not expect even the full trailer. I was, I was emotional by the end of it, but just seeing, like a big like social figure, being able to be open about their voice, about queer care, and just their stance is is hard to find sometimes. So that whole, the whole movie was just, it's really just on how that relationship, how their friendship has changed, and how he took on this role to better understand his friends and and the lifestyles that there are. So I think it's a really good representation of maybe what people can do. I'm not saying everyone should get in a car with their best friend and go on a road trip when they come out to them, Go for it, for sure, but I think it's like you from the sense of it just being a larger social figure, being able to be open about that, but also about learning about how someone kind of lives with that identity, especially throughout North America, and the different journeys they go on. So I think it's just a really nice thing. It's a really nice movie. And I find, even though it's this kind of silly little documentary, ask, I still found I learned a little bit from it. So I would definitely recommend watching that one. Yeah,

Stuart Murray  37:02  
and I'll just share a couple of things from my perspective, Theodore that, I mean, of course, Will Ferrell's so well known as a comedian, and I don't know Harper Steele, other than obviously now I do through the through the movie, what put me kind of at ease, and I you know, was right off the hop, when Will Ferrell turned to Harper instead of say, so, now that you are a trans woman, are you a better driver as a woman or as a man? And I thought, you know, great, you know, just because I think, you know, there's so much sort of uptightness around this hole, and that was just kind of an interesting way. And the other part that I thought was kind of a beautiful moment, although I'm hopeful, I'm not sure if I agree that it's it's factual, it's just that sort of, I think the comment that Will Ferrell said was that people are ready for acts of civility. And I guess I'm hopeful Theodore that that's true. I'm not so sure. And I'm not trying to be a negative. I'm just trying to be realistic, but, but I love that comment, and I hope that that's the way that we're starting to to move towards.

Theodore Biggs-Engel  38:06  
I think there's a lot of people, there's good, some good parts in that movie where people were meeting a, you know, a transgender person for the first time, and they just had to kind of take a second to and they just needed a little bit of help. Not that it's, you know, like a queer person's job isn't to educate other people, but totally just being in a position where be like, Oh, actually, I just It doesn't have to be a whole conversation just going, Oh, actually, I use these pronouns, and that's the end of that conversation. That's all it really takes. So being able to kind of see how it can be a really casual conversation, and it doesn't have to be a movie where you're just on the edge of the seat someone's not being accepted. Something's not safe. It just was a really good comfort movie. And just being able to see, like, some really good interactions that people don't know exist, that it doesn't have to be a whole conversation every single time, right? Yeah,

Stuart Murray  38:52  
and, and, there can be some levity, right? I mean, you know, there can be some levity. So, so a Theodore, if someone was listening to this and and wanted to get involved or know more about gender affirming care. You know, what would you advise them to do if

Theodore Biggs-Engel  39:11  
you are transgender or not? I think that you definitely should get and everybody should just improve your understanding, even just a little amount. But there's a few things I would say, if you have people in your life that are part of the 2s LGBTQ plus community, being able to have an open ear about them, for them and and have conversations with them and listen to their stories, but without asking too many questions and asking them to be this guidance for you, there's it's important to find the balance between Being an ally to them and advocating for them without overstepping their own life experiences and expecting them to educate you on in every aspect of their life. But I would say, listen to those people in your life. I would say, definitely reach out to organizations you may have so specifically Winnipeg, Manitoba clinic, community health center, Rainbow Resource Center, they have not. Only resources for queer individuals, but also is as allies, allies, friends, family members, Rainbow resources, opportunities to connect you with maybe other parents or other friends that are just wanting to learn a little bit more about what the queer identity is. So local organizations like that and huddle Northwest, or even just huddle. There's a few locations in Manitoba, but there's so there's countless amounts, honestly, of organizations, and I could probably make a whole list of the different places in Manitoba that are representing queer people and their stories. But any of those organizations would love to provide you with resources or understandings or even just good articles or books or stories that you can read on the queer identity, just to give yourself a little bit more understanding. And the last thing I would say to that is, when you do see things in the news or the media that are not exactly accurate, or maybe a little bit negative light on the transgender or queer community, just take a second fact check it. Just make sure that it's not this, something in the media saying this crazy thing has happened with queer people are they're doing this or these rights are protecting our children. Just take five minutes do a Google share, search an article search with a scientific article. Make sure that you're just double checking what information is being shared. For you, it's so difficult in this day and age to really be sure how truthful articles are, but any scientific article or university paper can help you just better understanding a little bit. So I would say question and anything that comes across your timeline or your page that you're just not sure of or is not putting queer people in the best light, I just question it a little bit. You don't have to fight it. You don't have to get in the comment sections of anybody. But just take a few moments for yourself to educate yourself that way as well.

Stuart Murray  41:41  
Thanks for sharing that I you know, when I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, we always looked at how people would say, you know that you know. Who do you think is right or wrong in this conversation, it was like, I think we need to be careful with that, that language. I think we need to look at it and say, What is your perspective and what is another perspective, and use the term about, how can we educate somebody on the issue, as opposed to starting off well, who's right and who's wrong? And so I think you eloquently, more eloquently than I did. You know there Theodore just kind of put that in perspective. So is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted a chance to talk about on this podcast?

Theodore Biggs-Engel  42:20  
No, I feel like we covered a really good amount of things. I think it was a really nice summary of what that map, the system project was, and then went into kind of what research I'm still doing, and I will continue be doing. I hope that that viewers, our listeners definitely got a chance to learn a little bit of something from this, from this podcast, about what gender affirming care may be or and hopefully it sparks a little bit of inspiration to look into it themselves, but I think that we covered pretty much everything that I was hoping to cover. So I really appreciate it.

Stuart Murray  42:47  
Theodore, thanks so much for your time. Thank you very much.

Matt Cundill  42:51  
Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davie, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  43:12  
produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.