Mike Plume ... The Nashville Smokers Club

Terry Evans  0:00  
My guest is the operations manager of Camp Manitou. He may have also tried selling you a pickup truck if you've been watching hockey over the over the last little while, He's toured with the likes of Steve Earle and John Hyatt. Toured across Europe, North America, Canada, many times. His name is Mike plume, and he has agreed to be my guest, reluctantly. Today's podcast is brought to you by Mike ploom.com songs, stories, mumblings, musings and Mike plume, the song harvester. Ep from royalty records. Listen to Mike plume's music on all your streaming services better yet. Purchase it at Mike plume.com reluctantly. It's been a while since we've seen each other because you relocated once again. Yeah,

Mike Plume  0:52  
it's kind of like Jenny and I kind of feel like bandits or something. It's like, as soon as we know that they're on our trail, we pack up and leave. Pack

Terry Evans  0:59  
up the covered wagon, and instead of heading west, you head east again. Yeah, it's

Mike Plume  1:03  
crazy. It's just it feels like every three or four years we're packing up and and moving somewhere, and I would not be surprised if that happened again in the next three or four years. Let's just say that.

Terry Evans  1:15  
Is it going to be career related, retirement related, or family related in some fashion,

Mike Plume  1:23  
probably retirement. I don't even not retirement, because I'm not at that. I don't think we're at that point, but it's where we eventually want to retire, back in Tennessee. And so we have a sneaking suspicion that at some point in the next three to five years, that Ruby will end up living back in Nashville as well. So we will certainly follow her there. And I mean, you, you came to visit us there back in 2015 I believe it was June of 2015 and, you know, we have a lot of friends there, and a lot of our life is still there. You know, we've been to Tennessee three times this year. We, you know, just went, went there for Christmas, and we were there in April when I had the harebrained idea of running the the half marathon, was the

Terry Evans  2:05  
intent to run a full marathon.

Mike Plume  2:08  
Smoke that. That is it. You are 100% correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I ran, I don't know what the

Terry Evans  2:17  
hell I was saying that all of a sudden, oh, Martin's barbecue, maybe I should, yeah,

Mike Plume  2:22  
it's very funny. You said it because the about mile five of of the of the run was right by Martin's barbecue where we saw Don Henley that day, right there you went right by it.

Terry Evans  2:34  
How many times did we go to Martin's barbecue on my state, I think what was I was there five days, right? Daily. We

Mike Plume  2:40  
went daily. I'm sure of it. That was one of the

Terry Evans  2:42  
things. And things in the preparation for going to Nashville, you just, you couldn't stop talking about Martin's barbecue. You got to have barbecue. It's called barbecue. It's not, you don't go out for steak or ribs or whatever. You go for barbecue. Go for barbecue. Yeah, but yeah, and the gigantic grill that they had there. And, yeah, the what was either our second or third visit with brother Chris. Yeah, we popped in. We're sitting down to eat. What's the name of the recording studio right around the corner where Elvis first recorded that Don Henley was working at. I

Mike Plume  3:19  
don't think Elvis recorded there. It's called the sound Emporium, but it was, you know what, you're kind of, right. Elvis didn't record there, but it was a part of Sun Studio. They, they really, you know, he opened up a a Sun Studio. Cowboy Jack opened up a Sun Studio up in in Tennessee or Nashville, I should say, and and then right next door was the the sound Emporium. I can't remember what it was called before it was the sound Emporium, but it, it is a studio of some, some notoriety, for sure. I mean, like everything from, you know, the gambler to Eastbound and Down from the smokey smoking the bandit soundtrack all the way to like the end of the world as we know it. And I feel fine by REM, and the one I love by REM, all recorded in that studio. All recorded in that studio. What else was like the old brother? Where art thou the Robert Alice and Kraus records were recorded there. Just tons and tons of like great Americana albums were recorded there, and continue to be recorded there. When we were there in April, we were obviously sitting at Martin's and you know, it was just what's a T bone Burnett was, was in there helping himself to a plate of dry rub wings or whatever. So you knew that he was next door working on something. And it's just one of those places

Terry Evans  4:44  
I find it funny. The guy named T bone was at Martin's barbecue. I didn't even put two

Mike Plume  4:48  
and two together. Yeah, that's very funny. So,

Terry Evans  4:51  
and that recording studio was just down the street from your house at the time,

Mike Plume  4:57  
along like i. Have sunk puts that were longer than the distance from my front door to that studio. You've

Terry Evans  5:06  
never sung longer than 10 feet in your life.

Mike Plume  5:10  
Okay? I've, okay. I've, I've, may have scald a nine iron further

Terry Evans  5:14  
that went from that distance.

Mike Plume  5:20  
So it would be a short par three. Let's put how's that? Is that better?

Terry Evans  5:23  
Sure. So that just down, just down the street from your old house, which was a beautiful, charming old what year was that house built in? You remember the architect was 1925 it was almost 100 year old house. It was amazing. That house you walk in, kind of like the front porch vestibule kind of thing, and then, yeah, you know, just in in some intricate, little, crazy, little 1925 design notions that happened in nooks and crannies and all of that stuff we

Mike Plume  5:52  
all have. We all live with regrets, and selling that house is a massive regret of mine, I can tell you right now. Yeah,

Terry Evans  5:58  
so Martin's barbecue. Around the corner down the street is the recording studio, and then a few buildings over is Martin's barbecue. So we go in there, we're having some food, and then we're sitting at we're sitting at our table, yeah, having a nice meal. So, and then I think Chris is back, your brother's back was to the door. You and I were sitting there. Was Ruby with us too. Yeah, Ruby was there. Okay. And so we're sitting there, and the door swings open, and there's a, what was a little entourage. It wasn't very big. It wasn't very big, three guys or something like couple guys. Yep,

Mike Plume  6:33  
he he had his sunglasses on, and he walked right up to our table, because he was obviously looking to meet somebody there. And he walked up to our table and he took off his glasses, kind of like, one of these kind of things. He's kind of like, always, you always have to have a prop when you're doing these things. Terry, he sort of came up, and he sort of, he looked at us, and he's like, No, not the guys. And then he sort of, then he saw the people he was looking for, and he walked away. And then it was Jenny's like, Jenny said, I think that was Don Henley. And then, you know, you and Chris, being so subtle. We're taking pictures every every which way you could, like under your arm, with your phone, all that kind of stuff.

Terry Evans  7:07  
At one point, I got up and walked over closer to his table to get and I don't know where I must have the pictures still, I still have to be if I looked, if I scrolled through my pictures for 2015 because I we got, got the pictures from morning we went to the distillery, Lynchburg, Lynchburg down there too.

Mike Plume  7:27  
So I'd be almost bought a barrel that day. Remember, almost bought a barrel. Probably should have. It's the biggest. You'd still be telling that story.

Terry Evans  7:35  
It would be cool. That's not the only person that we saw on that trip. And that too, on that day five was that the same? No, same. Yes, it was. It was the same day that we had that we stopped into the coffee shop. I thought we stopped into the coffee shop on the way down to Memphis,

Mike Plume  7:50  
but didn't we? Weren't we back where? Didn't we go to Martin's when we got back from Memphis? No,

Terry Evans  7:56  
when we got back from Memphis, it was the middle of the night because we were driving back. Remember?

Mike Plume  8:00  
I remember that now, yeah, but that was the set. Yeah, that was certainly the same trip, so it might have been the day before or something. Yeah, when we were going to Memphis, we stopped at the Starbucks in green hills, the ruggedly handsome Keith Urban was standing in line with us. Well, that was

Terry Evans  8:13  
just a funny story, because I will, you could go up there and I get my banana bread and my coffee, and I'm standing there and I'm putting the cream and sugar in my coffee, and Chris, your brother, again, is one person removed, and he's doing the same thing, getting his beverage all ready to go. And then all of a sudden this little guy comes squeaking in between us, and he looks at me, and he kind of gives me a little nod like this. And I turn and look, and I thought, Geez, out this little guy looks a lot like Keith Urban. So I turn and I look over top of key for the Keith Urban, yeah. And I look at Chris, and Chris gives me a nod. And I give Chris a nod. Keith Urban continues to put his, like, eight packs of sugar in his coffee. That's it. And then he stirs it up, and he turns it he's stirring. And he looks up and he goes, Thanks, mate, you know, like it was kind of like a thanks for not making a scene. Thanks for not saying, hey, it's Chris urban, Keith Urban, you're Keith Urban, Chris urban, oh

Mike Plume  9:08  
boy, I tell you, I would have freaked out if it was Chris urban. And

Terry Evans  9:15  
then he got into his Mercedes and drove away. It was something.

Mike Plume  9:19  
Yeah, that nice little car there and just tore off. Yeah, that's when Nashville is one of those towns for that, you know, you just sort of, you're always, if you're spent any time there at all, you're going to be bumping into people. Some friends of ours were going, they would go, like, every Tuesday to the to the library with their their baby, who was probably able to year at the time, maybe 15 months, for like, you know, a story time at the at the Nashville at the green hills library and and the the Kidman urban family would be in there as well. They are taking in the story time. You just never know what, who you're going to cross paths with there.

Terry Evans  9:53  
So you obviously saw the two of them, and Keith Urban and Nicole Kidman are. Are two of the beautiful people? If, yes, they are quite often ugly parents have beautiful kids, and then, conversely, beautiful parents have ugly kids. Do they have an ugly baby? Or what's

Mike Plume  10:14  
that? I don't know. I remember once Jenny and I were sitting at Bongo Java. Did we go? Did we take you to Bongo Java? I'm

Terry Evans  10:22  
sure we did. It rings a

Mike Plume  10:23  
bell, yeah, yeah, Bongo or Fido, any of those coffee shops. But we were sitting on the step or on the porch at Bongo Java, having breakfast one day. And I sort of, you know, the patio is full of people, and I look across across the way, and there's Nicole and Keith having their breakfast as well. And I remember, I it kind of dawned on me, while we're while I was star struck looking at them, is that because I think, I think they're the same age as Jenny and I may be a year older, but I remember thinking, you could not have two couples sitting that close together with a more drastic difference in yearly income was Jenny had some sort of record. I'm sure they thought the same thing. Was Jenny still songwriting

Terry Evans  11:09  
at the time and not working at Vanderbilt yet? Is this in she

Mike Plume  11:13  
had just started at Vandy? Yeah, she had just started at Vanderbilt. So, but, yeah, that was, that was a, it's Keith Urban hour here.

Terry Evans  11:23  
Part of the part of the charm and part of the storytelling that goes along with this is I feel so grateful and lucky to have gone to Nashville and been there with you, you know, and again, thank you for the invite. I know it's 10 years ago. But the great thing about going to Nashville is, anybody can go to Nashville anytime, and it's, it's, it's become kind of the New Vegas. Is that? Sure? Yeah. So it's, it's a great place to go, but to be able to go there and be there with somebody who knows, like when you were driving me around saying, oh, yeah, such and such lives there. That's where Jack White lives, you know. And let's go to Jack White's record shop. And we were driving around out in the country, and you were pointing out some stuff Nashville Predators. Dude married to the country singer. Yeah? Mike Fisher, Matt, yeah, Mike Underwood and Carrie. Underwood, he goes, Yeah, that's where Mike and Carrie live. Look like what it just it's Mike and Carrie. That's right, yeah, right. Because everyone knows somebody, but it's that kind of stuff on a trip to Nashville that is remarkable.

Mike Plume  12:35  
And I mean, I'm, I'm, I live there long enough that I sort of, I know all the little the little back roads and stuff, and just a little, little things that I find interesting, that if I think you'll find interesting, I'll point out as well. Like, you know, where you know, Bob Dylan recorded the Nashville Skyline record, and which is the same studio the Quonset hut, which is the same studio where Patsy Cline recorded crazy and we're crazy.

Eddie Cochran recorded summertime blues, and George Jones recorded he stopped loving her today, there's just a lot of really cool things like that that excites me just talking about it. And even when we were there, like back in April, I still, I still drove around all those little things and stood out in front of, you know, RCA Studio B knowing that, like, you know, in 19 January of 1955 you know, Elvis pulled up in a pink Cadillac and, you know, went in a recorded Heartbreak Hotel. That's the kind of stuff that just excites me to no end, especially the thing with Elvis, because it's like, and we did it when we went to Sun Studio in Memphis too, is like, remember, at Sun there's, there's the little hole in the floor, or in the X for the base, for the little hole in the floor for the base will be, and then the x, where Elvis's microphone, right was, and, and it's like, that is where lightning struck, you know, and if it wasn't for what happened at that little where that x was, X marks the spot. If it wasn't for that, you and I would not be talking right now. You know what? I mean, that's what it's like it because that was ground zero of everything that followed. Even if somebody says they're not an Elvis fan, I guarantee you the music that they that they're fans, of the people who created that music were Elvis fans. You know, it's just, it's just the same thing with Bob Dylan Yeah, I'm not a Bob Dylan fan, yeah, well, you know what? You're a Tom Petty fan. And I guarantee a petty was a big Dylan fan, so, or whatever, but, but I would marvel at the x at Sun Studio, and it's the same way when I would pull up in front of RCA Studio B in Nashville. There on Music Row. And you just think of what happened there. It's really, it's really something. It changed the world, you know it, it invented the teenager, between that and rebel without a cause. It was just everything that's happened since, is because of those, those two little studios there,

Terry Evans  15:19  
yeah, that build. And we saw the pictures. What was it? Elvis, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, the picture of them all together, yeah, and Carl Perkins. And Carl Perkins, that's right, the Million Dollar Quartet. And being able to go in there and do the tour, sit in the control room as well, yeah, and get some pictures taken, go down into the studio where all the recordings took place. Yeah, and as soon as we walk into that main building, you go through the reception, you walk into the into the main recording studio, who there was a drum kit sitting there, and it belonged to, was it Oakland? Oh,

Mike Plume  15:57  
I, you know, I can't remember. I remember the drum kit, but I can't remember. Yes, you're

Terry Evans  16:01  
right. It's mind boggling. You know, for me as a music fan, you obviously, as a musician, it's amazing to look at places like that and feel the history. And the trip to Memphis was awesome. We I mean, we went to Graceland, yeah, walked, walked on the TCB plane, and then we went across. We did and, and then what toured. And we saw the jungle room and and the green shake,

Mike Plume  16:31  
that's right

Terry Evans  16:32  
stuff, the multiple TVs, and the TCB bar downstairs, and everything. Yeah.

Mike Plume  16:38  
Do you remember this is, this is one of my favorite parts of that whole day. We're standing in line. We just been on the plane, and now we're standing in line getting ready to get on the little bus that takes up to Graceland. And we're standing there. There's about 200 people in line, and Ruby said, Daddy, is there a bathroom at Graceland? I said, I'm pretty sure there's one. And the all 200 people heard, they heard this, this guy's little girl asked that question, and they all heard my response, and they all, everybody got the gallows humor? Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's one, yeah, and oh one for sure. We'll

Terry Evans  17:13  
be right back, and we're back Mike plume in Ontario, transplanted from Edmonton, most recently, also by way of Nashville and Toronto before that, and Edmonton before that. That's right parts. You were born back east in Moncton, but I guess grew up mostly with your grade school in Bonville in Alberta. Yeah,

Mike Plume  17:40  
I lived in Moncton, New Brunswick, or the surrounding area Havelock, New Brunswick, and I lived in that area till I was 17. We moved to Alberta in August of 1985 I was supposed to be going into 12th grade, but I failed everything the year before. So I was doing my second lap through grade 11, because it was a new school, nobody realized. Nobody knew that I was repeating a year. So I was quite happy that I didn't have to explain that I was just a bona fide dumbass the year before and did nothing. But that was also the year I discovered the guitar, so that kind of everything took a back seat. But yeah, moved to Bonnyville in August of 85

Terry Evans  18:21  
one of the things that I am most appreciative, appreciative, among the many things with our friendship, is you turning me on to very specific musical artists. And they include John Prine, John Hyatt, towns, Van Zandt guy Park and the like, yeah, these are artists that I had never heard of before I met you. Right? Were they artists that you at that time, like, while you were still in school and discovering the guitar you were familiar with? Or did they come after you started thinking, hey, I want to try and, you know, figure out what CF and G do. That's

Mike Plume  19:02  
right. No, they were, they were much later. I was always a melee camp fan, like as early as like 1981 I guess, or whenever American fool came out with hurt so good and Jack and Diane stuff. Always liked those songs. I and then the next record would have been next Mellencamp record would have been uh huh, which came out in 83 I think the fall of 83 and that had crumbling down in pink houses, the authority song, stuff like that. So it was always a Mellencamp fan. I didn't realize that that he would have been called a singer songwriter, but that's what he was. And then, you know, obviously Springsteen. I became a Springsteen fan when born in the USA came but I'd like to say I was a fan since Born to Run, but I was seven when that record came out, so it didn't really hit me the way it did when I was 27 you. Know, but anyway, but, you know, I really liked the Born in the USA record, again, didn't really understand, you know, didn't really know the singer songwriter thing. Just didn't even put two and two together. And then I went to see Mellencamp in 1988 at Northland Coliseum, and he closed the show, or maybe it was a second last song with like a Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan. And I had heard that song, but just didn't. Had never paid attention to it, you know, I just, I remembered the chorus. How does it feel? How does it feel? But I'd never really paid attention to and it was just something, if it was on in the radio, it was just getting me from point A to point B, and that was it. When Mellencamp played it that night. This the chill bumps and, you know, my hair standing on end, that had a massive effect on me. The next day, I went out and bought Dylan's Greatest Hits, and that started the whole thing. That was in March of 88 by March of 89 I had started, I'd already been on the road singing in various rock and roll bands and stuff like that. By March of 89 I was I bought an acoustic guitar, and I was bound and determined to become a singer songwriter, just like off the off of just becoming a Dylan fan, and then I would have bought, um, probably Simon Garfunkel Greatest Hits just to come on from. And so those were the songs I was playing when I hit the road as a solo act, just like me and my guitar and depending on the night of drum machine and stuff like that. And then, you know, on set breaks in the pub, somebody would say, Hey, I like that Dylan song you played. Have you ever heard of John Prine? Like, I don't even know. I'm thinking, Oh, that's the guy who sings, missing you, right? No, no, that's John Waite. Oh, right, yeah, sorry. I mean, like, literally, that's where my brain went. And same thing when I heard, when somebody asked me if I had ever heard of Tom Waits, I thought it was the guy that sank Missing You, and so they the guy, but the guy said, um, yeah, have you ever heard of John Prine? I had and he's and he just started sitting at the bar. He just started quoting lyrics to me. And I found the quoted me the lyrics to, please don't bury me.

Speaker 1  22:24  
Woke up this morning, walked in the kitchen and died,

Mike Plume  22:34  
and I just I couldn't Well, I thought it was the funniest thing I'd ever heard. Um, nowadays, if I was sitting at the bar and somebody started quoting lyrics to me, I'd probably just get up and leave, but, but, but, just the way he he quoted, he was just these lyrics just really hit me. And the next day, I went out and bought Prime's Greatest Hits, and I learned every song on, and then I'd be playing those. And then one day, was watching Letterman and Lyle Levitt was on there, and I had never, didn't know what a Lyle Lovett was from anything. And he sang a song called, here I am. Yes, it's me, which has this spoken word verses it goes, Hello, I'm the guy who sits next to you and reads the newspaper over your shoulder. Don't turn the page. I'm not finished. Life is so uncertain. And I thought, What in the world is this? And so the next day, I went out and bought Lyle Lovett. It was called in his large band, about that album, and then about the album that was immediately before that, called Pontiac. And with that, I was a crazy fan of Lyle Lovitz, and then I found out that he was from Texas, and then it's just, you know, from there, you start getting exposed to things. And I'm reading an interview with Mellencamp, and he had just finished producing this record for a guy named James McMurtry the kids. It was his first album. He was 2425 years old, and Mellencamp said, I'll never be as good of a songwriter as this McMurtry kid. And thought, Okay, I gotta write this name down. So I wrote that name down. And then he said, you know, his dad wrote Lonesome Dove. And I, and I'd heard about this Lonesome Dove, but I didn't know what it was about, and he had written the Last Picture Show in terms of endearment and stuff, and so, oh, my God, I got so I started. That's how I became a big James McMurtry fan, a big Larry McMurtry fan, who would be James' dad. And then from there, you sort of, you know, you start stumbling into all these Texas singer songwriters, which is an a whole genre in and of itself, with, you know, Steve Earl, guy, Clark, towns, Van Zandt, they were all towns and guy were the where they were, like ground zero of the Texas singer songwriter thing in Houston back in the 60s, during the great folk scare. The 1960s as they called it, the. And then Steve Earl would have been like the next wave coming along. He was the guy, sort of tugging on their coat sleeves to try to learn all their tricks. And then for and then obviously, Steve Earle became Steve Earl, you know, with guitar town and Copperhead road. And then it's just, and then it was just like, you know, but it all that that stone was thrown in the pond was that that stone was probably Bob Dylan in after that Mellencamp concert. And that's where it all just rippled out from there for me. And that's how I sort of stumbled onto all these guys and and there's still, there's still more. That was a very rambling answer to a probably pretty question that probably could have been a one or two word,

Terry Evans  25:45  
but it's a great way to put it. You know, you talk about throwing it doesn't matter. It could have been a giant rock or a little pebble, regardless, the ripples just continue. And it's only the way you described it. It's almost like a little family circus, you know, whatever his name it was, it Timmy and Family Circus, where he had the dots following him all around the playground and stuff. It's just that you were following all the singer songwriter dots all over the place, from, yeah, no, from Bob Dylan to John Prine to to Guy Clark. So, so when you're, you know, 1718, years old, and you're, you know, going through grade 11 for the second time. Yeah, and you're figuring out a guitar and seeing John Mellencamp and deciding that, you know, maybe I'm going to be a singer songwriter right at that point, if somebody would have come up to you, you know, the day that you discovered guy Clark, yeah, that point, if somebody came up to you and said, One day you're going to see sitting at his kitchen table with a sniffer full of something, yeah, and you're going to be writing songs with him, what would you have said?

Mike Plume  26:46  
I mean, well, the the Yeah, it sounded so it would sound, would it would have and continues to sound so far fetched. It's ridiculous. But it happened, you know, and I probably somehow manifested that, you know, I remember in 1997 so that would have been right when the song and dance man record came out. And I remember, I did like an interview for, I can't remember it, some newspaper, maybe the Edmonton journal or something. And I said that I wanted, you know what? And I had never been to Nashville. There was no, there was no need for me to go to Nashville. There was, there was no interest in us in Nashville. But for some reason, Nashville was on my radar in 97 and I said I wanted to be a part of that Nashville smokers club that was in 19 that was in the fall of 97 and I said that I still have that newspaper clipping, and it came dreadfully close, not dreadfully I came painfully close to becoming a full fledged member of that Nashville smokers club. I was one row back from the from that campfire, if you know what I mean. But I came very close. But I did hang with Guy Clark, and we wrote, and it was the best. It was a crazy day. We even went golfing about six months later. But, yeah, I just became a massive guy. Clark, fan man. He hated he hated it if people called him a craftsman, but he really, he really, he really understood the craft of songwriting. He taught me. He didn't say, this, is this what you do, kid, but he really taught me, just the art, I guess, of less is more. You know, you can just, just keep trimming fat. Keep trimming fat. Do you need this? Don't you know, I remember there was, I was reading, this is a quick aside. I was reading Stephen King's book on writing, where he just talks about the process of writing. And in there, he says, don't use words that end and l y, and that was, that was profound. And that's and Guy Clark was a lot like that as well. You would never He said, You don't need to say, he ran to the store quickly. He ran to the store. We know it's quickly, or certainly as quick as he can go. You don't need to use any of those words. He looked longingly. No, he looked that's good. And so I, I've become a big fan of just trim and fat editing. I love it. And that's, that's, that's guy we were sitting around, and he asked me to play, play a song. Play, like he said, play one of your one of your favorite songs that you've written, play your favorite song of yours that you've written. So I played in the song of mine, called the back of my hand, well,

Speaker 1  29:32  
she got herself a job out at the hungry Hall on the interstate, and

Mike Plume  29:37  
in the last verse, it says, someday her Romeo will come. Until that day, she'll carry on. Ain't nothing new when you've seen it all twice before. And I finished the song, and he's sitting there and he's smoking a cigarette, and he goes, um, can I make one suggestion? I'm like, yeah, love to hear it. And I'm thinking he's gonna say, you know, don't quit your day job, or get the hell out of here. And, you know, subways hiring or something. But he said, he goes, we don't need, we know it's her Romeo. You don't need to sing. Someday her Romeo will come to say, someday Romeo will come. You don't need the word her. Get rid of that. And that just, I mean, you had to scrape me off the floor. I couldn't believe, like, the precision of that, of that cut that was amazing to me. And it's and that was in late November, early December, of 2001 and, man, there's not a day that goes by where I don't think of that. We know it's her, Romeo, man,

Terry Evans  30:36  
guy. Clark, oh, it's for me the cape, yeah, Randall knife, yep. The Well, the entire album Live at the Bluebird. That's a good one with Steve Earl and towns Van Zandt. That's a good one. Him breaking down after towns Van Zandt sings Katie Bell, yeah, no.

Speaker 1  31:01  
Heart was ever so pure. And

Terry Evans  31:05  
my daughter's name is Kate, and that's the thing that Kate and I have. The other thing is Daddy, Daddy's little pumpkin from John Prine. John Prine,

Speaker 1  31:17  
I can see the fire burning, burning right behind your eyes. You

Terry Evans  31:21  
got fire in her eyes, and then from Katie Bell, it's there's no deeper blue, and that's what she got the tattoo. So she's got the fire and the blue the water, and the fire burning up and the water dripping down, with her tattoo eyes on her forearm. Wow. And it touched me like you wouldn't believe that she took that from those two songs and put it on, on her arm, you know, with with the thoughts of those songs, what they need mean to me, how I attribute them to her, and what you know, so that triangle there, but the Storytelling that guy Clark has in towns, bands. And, obviously, yeah, poncho and lefty. I was just gonna say poncho and lefty, you know, okay, here, here's a song. I'm gonna tell a story. And, oh, Willie Nelson, you want to sing it? Sure. Okay. And, and how many others have any little Yeah, saying poncho and lefty. But the storytelling is, is so, so good in their songwriting. And they didn't just, it wasn't just for them. There was other songs that I mean guy Clark wrote, songs that other people recorded, that we don't even know that guy Clark wrote, right? The story is there, and that's to emulate that and to try and have success with that is not an easy task, no, I suppose, but when you, when you feel that you've done it, you kind of think that's, that's the story. Do you? Do you have a song, one of your songs, where you think I told that story as best as I can, and it's phenomenal.

Mike Plume  33:01  
Well, it might be the one that I played for guy Clark that day. The back of my hand, the song about a waitress working at a little truck stop out on the interstate. Well, she got herself a job out at the hungry hog on the interstate. Fresh ground coffee beans and black eyed peas. Serve them up to you on a plate, so clean up after you when you're done. But it don't bother her none she's still smiling when you walk out the door. She said life. I knew it so well, at least I did when I was a kid. But now I just can't tell I thought I knew it like the back of my hand. But now I finally understand what you got to do is be true to yourself. I think that my I don't know if it's my best song, but it's um, you can certainly see it from where it's where it stands, I tell you, but that that's a, I think that's a really good little story song. I think silhouette is a good story song that's off my table for one record.

Speaker 1  33:56  
I could see you soon, framing the purple sunset.

Mike Plume  34:05  
But yeah, there's, there's lots of little songs like, like that, where you can just, yeah, you just don't even know where it's going to go, but you're going to tell this story and and see, see what happens. I remember reading an interview with Larry McMurtry when he was writing, he was talking about when he was writing Lonesome Dove. Did you ever see the movie The like the eight part series, Lonesome Dove? Or read the book?

Terry Evans  34:28  
I remember seeing the book, and it just it looked like one of those books that there was like a SOPA. It looked like Fabio should have been under the cover with the wind blowing this air. It just seemed like a very

Mike Plume  34:39  
old west, Old West kind of artwork. Yes, I can see that. Well, don't let don't let that ruin it for you, because it is a just, what a what a story. And the movie, which was an eight part series, it was, it started Tommy Lee Jones and Robert Duvall, and it's just. It's great, but he talks in, I'm not going to ruin it for you, but I'm going to, but he talks about one of the main characters dies towards the end of, you know, three quarters of the way through launch of Dove. It's an 800 page book. It's an undertaking, and it's book three of a four part series, even though it was the first to come out, but he talks about when one of the main characters dies, and he did not want him to die, but he couldn't help but that's just where the story was going. And you're thinking, well, you're writing the book, man, just don't have him die. But he just didn't. He wasn't going to get in the way of the story. He was going to let the story be told and unfold the way it's supposed to, to whatever extent, I try to do the same thing when I'm doing my little story songs, you know, and like so silhouette. I'm sure you've heard that song, but if you don't really sit with the lyrics, you just go, that's a nice little song, but it is very dark. And I didn't and I saw the darkness coming when I was writing the song, and I'm like, smart guy might try to steer, steer clear of this, but I'm just going to let the story tell itself. And so, yeah, I don't even know what the hell I'm talking about anymore, but that's but the storytelling is, is just a ton of fun guy. Clark's song, let him roll is probably might be my favorite guy. Clark song. That's the one about the he was an he was an elevator man in a cheap hotel in exchange for a rent in a run one room cell. The best version of it is on the live album keepers, which is recorded at Douglas corner and in December of 96 and it that version is just, it is just what a song is about an old guy, you know, who, you know, he's enough, an elevator man at a cheap hotel. He fell in love with this, with a girl about town, you know, she was a a lady of the evening, and she and she turned his last proposed. It was, it was white port wine that put that look in his eye that grown men get when they're when they need to cry. He proposed to this girl who turned him down in favor of being a girl about town. Years goes by, decades goes goes by, and he dies, and they're at his funeral, and it's just this the like the two or three friends of his that he had, you know, acquaintances, or at his funeral and and except for this lady in black, way off to the south, and she's standing there with, you know, black veil covering her silver hair and all one eyed John said. Her name is Allison. She used to be a whore in doubts. It's like, oh my god, I can't even believe it. It's just that's every time I hear that song, when that line happens, my chin just drops. I just, it just kills me every time I can't believe in my decades, you know. And that was, that was the love of his life. And she just, she chose to, to not settle down. She chose to be a girl about town, and just the way, you know, but she's, but she shows up. She shows up for his funeral, you know. And it's just, it's just the way, just just the way he says it, you know, the one eyed John said her name was Alice, and she used to be or in Dallas. And he says, so let him roar. He bet he's gone to Betty's gone to Dallas to rest his soul. Um, just let him roll. Let him roll. He always said that heaven was just a Dallas whore, like, Oh my God, how do you? And nobody could sing that without, with, without the, with the authority that guy Clark did just the way he would deliver that. He always claimed that Devin was just a Dallas whore. What a line, and it just kills me every time I hear it back

Terry Evans  38:47  
to silhouette your song. Hmm. Correct me, if I'm wrong, is that one of three that references Shep mins Hill?

Mike Plume  38:57  
It's three, for sure. There's two on the first record Benny. Has anyone seen Benny? The rebound? So in Benny, it's well, Benny parked his osmobile up on Shipman's Hill. He wrote a suicide note on $50 bill. Life lost its thrill, and then so he went up there to call it a day, and then, and then in the rebound, the Lyric is, I remember those nights up on shipments. Still it wasn't blueberry, but we sure did find our thrills. So it's always also a spot where, you know, the kids would go park on Friday nights, you know, that kind of thing, yeah. And then I think the next time Chapman's hill made an appearance would have been on the table for one record. So it would have been silhouette meet me up on shipments Hill in that song. It's like a

Speaker 1  39:52  
Come with me. Oh, darling one, you must see the purple sun come and me. Oh, say you win. Know, meet me up on Shipman's hill

Mike Plume  40:04  
where I could see your silhouette framed in the purple sunset. When the sun goes down, it brings a chill. It's getting dark on Shipman's hill like that. That really paints a nice picture. And then in the next verse, it's like, don't tell a soul my my darling one, and be alone when you come for then I know you'll love me still.

So there's something going on. And then in the last verse, the Lyric, because I'll wait for you, my darling one, is silent as the smoking gun. I said, I would. You said, you will, you'll find me here on shepherd's Hill. That's where it's like, still don't really know what happened if I but if I think about it, I think he killed himself, you know. And the SIRENS WAIL high and shrill on their way to Shepherd's Hill. That's just a dark that's a dark turn. And that's where I was sort of going with, like the story was taking a turn. And I'm like, I should probably steer this away from the suggestion of a, you know, a double suicide, or whatever, you know, dude, I wonder why my, why my career tanked, you know, my, my feel good songs were songs about guys. Anyway, yeah, should have thought that through. But so that's the third time shipments Hill shows up, and it's also in Riley, favorite bootleg. Well, I done me some time at the pen on the hill. Oh, shepman, he haunts it still.

Terry Evans  41:36  
That's right, that's right. My son's first musical memory is, that's

Mike Plume  41:40  
it, yep. And then it happens again, too. And I'm trying to think, Oh, is it in on my last eat, on my last album, there's a song called sugar maple charcoal.

Unknown Speaker  41:56  
Charcoal. I don't

Mike Plume  42:02  
know if you've heard it, but, but sugar maple charcoal, you shouldn't you, you may remember from our tour of hernsberg, yeah, right. But then when they would filter the white lightning, it was through that pebbled sugar maple charcoal, that 11 feet of charcoal that they would filter it through, yeah, and that's so it goes in, it goes in white lightning or a bourbon, and it comes out the bottom of Tennessee sip and whiskey. That's the difference between a bourbon and Tennessee sip and whiskey is that it is filtered through, you know, 11 feet of pebbled sugar maple charcoal. So I have a song called sugar maple charcoal, and it's about

Speaker 1  42:45  
hum and me, a Cajun girl from down around capillary, me and that Cajun girl run shine out of river, gladi,

Mike Plume  42:53  
me and that Cajun girl. We built us a still back in the sugar maples, way up on shipments Hill. So it's, that's the, I think the fifth time I've brought that up, years ago, I met a guy at a show. He said, you know, just randomly, I was at a hockey tournament, and bonnieville was my kid, and I drove all over the place, and I was asking everybody where shepherds Hill was, and he never did find it. Because, well, for one, there's not a hill in Bonnyville. Um, Bonnyville, but the main thing is, I just made it up. It's just a good sounding this sounds like a hill Shepherd. Shepmans Hill

Terry Evans  43:29  
Sure does. We'll be right back. Reluctantly. Kids have a funny way of changing lives. It's remarkable what they can bring to ours as we try to help them, I guess, shape theirs that first five years is so important. Anybody who has kids knows about it. And yep, in that first five years with your daughter Ruby, Tallulah, plume, did you know that there was going to be something musical there. I mean, your wife Jenny is very musical. She's recorded and written and and performed you, of course, storied career with that continues with performance, writing and and recording and that sort of thing. Did you? Did you look at your daughter Ruby and say, Uh oh, she's gonna follow the same steps? Nope,

Mike Plume  44:22  
I didn't. I it didn't even dawn on me until the pandemic, once, once, once, like hockey was shut down. Because, I mean, when the pandemic hit, she was captain of her hockey team. I was at thinking, you know, maybe she'll get a scholarship playing hockey somewhere in the States or something. That's really what I was figuring she would do, she'll, she'll get a scholarship. You know, we only play hockey, get a good education and see what winds up. But when the pandemic hit and she was kind of just stuck at home with all of us, like we all were, she, she started playing the guitar, non stop. You. And it's true, it was just and, and she really took to it. So no, I didn't see it coming. I really didn't

Terry Evans  45:10  
extremely gifted athlete. She was like, over the top. You traveled all over the United States for mountain V max. Yep, you she was a hell of a golfer. Yep, she was a hell of a hockey player. Yeah, and I say was, but she still probably could throw the skates on his skate circles around you and me, guaranteed. Yeah, but now enrolled at the music program at Berkeley in Massachusetts,

Mike Plume  45:40  
Burke, Berkeley School of Music in Boston, right there, in the thick of it all,

Terry Evans  45:44  
that's where we do have something in common. I need to Riley went to the he went to a very short program, and then the five week summer program, yeah. And then you and I talked at length about Berkeley and Riley's experience there. And went

Mike Plume  45:59  
to, went to Berkeley to the exact same program that Riley went to was Johnny Fay from the hip. Yeah, I just watched that documentary.

Terry Evans  46:07  
That's right, I watched it too. And I thought, oh, isn't that funny? Yeah, Johnny was there too, I

Mike Plume  46:12  
don't think the same year, no, but, but I found that very interesting. So, yeah, there you go. So hats off to Riley for doing that.

Terry Evans  46:22  
Well, when Riley was there for the five week summer program, I found this so Riley and I were go. Not this past time that Metallica was in with their no repeat weekend, but the previous visit. Riley and I are sitting there in the stands, and we're looking down in between the opening act and Metallica coming on, and he looks down. He goes, Oh, there's Lars. And I said, Oh, which one anything like my vision isn't the best they can I'm trying to figure out, Okay, do I look through my bifocals or he goes, right there. He said we were farting around in the in the drum kit, in the cases and stuff like that. He goes, you know, Lars, son was at the Berkeley with me. It hurt and looked at I said, What? And like, this was, I think the previous summer. I said, Yeah, you waited a year until we're sitting in a metallic concert to tell me that you spent five weeks at Berkeley with Lars Ulrich son. He goes, Yeah, it was no big deal. So I thought that was pretty interesting.

Mike Plume  47:22  
That's great. I love to hear those kind of stories.

Terry Evans  47:24  
It's awesome to follow Ruby too, and see the performances that she's got and hear the stuff that she's working on. You know, her posts on social media. It's amazing to see her progression as well.

Mike Plume  47:36  
I've never been so sure of something, but she is than to say she is on her way. There is no doubt in my mind. No doubt in my mind. I joke all the time. It's like, maybe I should have, you know, polished the music business turd as much as I did. I probably should have told her the way her really is maybe she would have steered clear. But, you know, it's like, I feel like there's that scene in The Godfather there when, when Brando and Pacino are sitting there, Don Corleone and Michael are are sitting there, and Don Corleone says, I never wanted this for you, Mike, I was always thinking Senator Corleone. I kind of feel like that sometimes I I never wanted this for you. Ruby. I was always thinking, Senator plume, I wanted you to be the one to pull the strings

Terry Evans  48:24  
and on either side of the border, I suppose, because she's got dual citizenship, right? Bingo, yeah,

Mike Plume  48:29  
she's cooking along. Man,

Terry Evans  48:31  
absolutely, your work continues musically. It doesn't stop. I mean, you've got it. You bleed rock and roll and the genre that you specialize in, that's not country enough for country and not rock and roll enough for rock and roll and but is unmistakably you.

Mike Plume  48:55  
I appreciate that

Terry Evans  48:57  
and the stories that you've told throughout the umpteen albums that you've got out, and the work that you've done with others in your mentorship and CO writing and that sort of thing continues. What what do you have down the pipe? Is there something coming that we should be aware of or preparing for at any

Mike Plume  49:20  
given time. I have about 80 songs that I'm working on, and it's just whenever 10 of them finish, those are gonna be the 10 that the next 10 that I do. But I'm always working on songs, um, you know, we're in an interesting time now, you know, like, the days of the album are gone to whatever extent. You know? I mean, I still think albums are important, and it's really great to sort of focus a a handful of songs together, you know, because a record is, a record is, I mean, it is a recording of where the artist was at that particular time. So if you can have these 10 songs that are all sort of, they're all sort of finished and started, you know, in that same you. So in that same time frame, they will, they, they tend to sort of work together. So I'm always working on a bunch of stuff, always, whether it's stories and and whatever. So but I have no I'm in no Hell fire hurry to finish anything. It's just, whenever it's done, it's done. I don't, I don't really, nobody's saying, hey, you need to deliver an album for the Christmas season. So, yeah, I don't really know, man. I've just, I got a bunch of, I have a bunch of stuff I'm working on. And I remember years ago reading this was early into my singer songwriter thing. I remember reading that Bob Dylan, like in the mid 60s, early to mid 60s, was writing four songs a day, and I also read that Hank Williams never spent more than five minutes on a song. And so me being young and stupid and and not lacking in self confidence at all, I assumed I was I completed that trifecta. So I would write four songs a day and spend 20 minutes working on for a song. And because of that, I took a, I took a lot of songs out of the oven before they should have, you know, and so they kind of fell flat like a like a cake will.

Terry Evans  51:14  
But it's interesting. I read a thing where you said that it took you about 10 years to land this song, like, it's kind of like a, you know, equating it to fishing, you know, yeah, you reeled it in and would go out, and you'd reel it in, and then it would go back out, and you'd fight it some more and then go back out, yeah, so you're fighting a song for, not necessarily fighting a song, but you're, you're reeling it in And then letting it swim off for a bit, and then you think, you can bring it back in. And it takes you 1010, years to to land a song. In some cases, other cases, takes 10 minutes. Yeah.

Mike Plume  51:52  
So, yeah. So what I kind of, what I was sort of getting, is like, so in the early days, that was like, I would, I would, I didn't spend a whole lot of time on the songs. They came, they came fast and and, but nowadays, I just don't care if it's if it's not finished, I don't care how long it takes. I'll I keep working at it. So the song that you're talking about is a song called Waiting for the fall,

which I started in October of 2010 and I finished it in when did I finish it? I finished it in January of 21 so it took me 11 songs, so 11 years to haul that song in the boat. And it was worth every minute of Wait, waiting for that song, just to finally give up and let me haul it in the boat. And there's a lot of songs like that. 830 Newfoundland took me four years to write. Uh,

coming home again. Took me about four years to write

the the initial inspiration is usually pretty quick. It's like I have a pretty good structure and framework of the song in almost in the amount of time it would take to listen to the song, I have a pretty good idea of how the song is going to go, but how long it's going to take me to reel that song, and I have no idea. And I just, I just, I don't worry about it. I keep working on him, as Steve Earle said, has got a great quote. He said, the first verse in chorus is magic, though, the work begins on the second verse, and boy is he right. That's where the work begins that second verse. And you just keep going back, trimming fat, like Guy Clark would do, sanding it down. I I've often described it like, as like writing a song is like building a chair. I can build I can write you a song in five minutes, and I can build you a chair in five minutes, but you're probably going to get splinters from both of them, you know what I mean? And so I just, I will just, the song is done, and I will just play it, and I'll just, I'll go over it, and I'll just with, with, with my hand, and I'll just, I'll when I'm listening to the song, and I just see, you know where, where I'm, where there's rough spots, and I'll go in and I'll, I'll work those out. You know, like, there are, there's, like, some songs, like, a great song is like a, it's like a stone that's been thrown in a, in a stream. Or, like, you know, when you're, like, you're looking through a stream and you see this perfect, there's not a rough edge, and there's a, like, a perfect skipping stone. It's been in that that stream for 1000s of years, and the rough edges have been worn off with time. And a good song is, the is, is the same way, like all there's no rough edges. There's it is just a perfect nugget, and that's and that is it. But, you know, and sometimes the song. Come out like that, boom, done. Other times. It takes a lot of work, you know, but like those old folk songs that we've been singing for 1000s of years, like the star of the county down, which is an old Irish song, I mean, it's, I think it's probably 700 years old, and it's seamless. It's flawless. There's not, there's not an ounce of fat on it. That's because that song has been sitting in the bottom of a stream for the last 700 years, and it's been sung in every pub for for 700 years, and all the rough edges have been worn off of it. And that, I just, I love talking about stuff like that. I just, I find that just fascinating, you know. And when, when I'm working on a song, I'll do like, a quick recording of it on my phone, and I'll listen back to it. And when I listen to it, I try not to listen to it like I'm the songwriter. I try to listen to it like, like a listener. So I'll even put my phone like, you know, on the other side of the room, and I'll just, I'll listen like somebody else, like, like I was just, just a, like, a pedestrian listener, and I pay attention to when my when my when, when my mind wanders, because when my mind wanders, I've lost the listener. So I know I've just looked at Instagram while I was, while I was listening to this song, I've lost the listener. So I need to go back and see what something about 10 seconds before my mind want I picked up my phone to look at Instagram or check a text message, something, something back there needs to be dealt with. So, okay, maybe I need to cut this verse in half and go right to the chorus. Or maybe I need to go to like the relative minor. Or is there just something, something needs to happen there? And I find that, I find that process to be exhilarating,

Terry Evans  56:44  
exhilarating, challenging, exhausting and frustrating, probably all at the same time.

Mike Plume  56:49  
Yeah, the one thing that's never been for me is successful. Well, you know what I mean, though, but it's like, at that point you just do the best song you can do. And if it's if it's if it for some reason, pardon the pun, it strikes a chord with, you know, the a massive percentage of the population, then you got to hit on but you just that's the that's the one, the one part of the game that you can't predict, the only thing you have control of is the quality of this, of this, of your work. If it catches great, if it doesn't, so be it. There's nothing you can do. There's nothing you can do to make it a hit. If it's, if it just, if the timing of it is off, you know, it's just, that's just the way it works. And and you can drive yourself crazy, you know, the minute, if you you hear a song on the radio today that you've never heard before. It's a brand new song, and you're like, oh my god, this is this is the new sound. I need to do this. This is what I need to do. I hate to break it to you. You're a year and a half late. You know what I mean? That That song was written and recorded a year and a half ago. It took a year and a half for the record company and all the business and the machine behind it to finally get that song to where you hear it. And so you're going to, so if you're going to write a song that sounds just like that and you get it released, it might, it might take you a year and a half to get that finding to finish writing and recording and releasing that song. So suddenly you're three years, you're three years, about your three years in off behind. So just do your own thing, you know. And if you only ever listen to Bob Dylan, then you're just going to sound like a fourth rate Bob Dylan. But if you listen to everything it gets, the more, the more influences you have, the tougher it is for tougher it is for someone to determine who your influences are. You know, like if you've only ever listened to one, just 1111, genre, one, one artist, then you just, you will just end up sounding like a, a fourth rate version of that person.

Terry Evans  58:57  
Which takes me back to your influence on my musical tastes, because before I met you, I was strictly a hair metal guy, and then I discovered you, like I saw you play live, and thought, Man, this is something. And we became friends, and you introduced me to so many other different kinds of music, which expanded my personal palette for for that kind of thing, which then influenced my son and got him to the situation where he's playing all kinds of different stuff. I think it's a great example Mike plume, 30 years of examples of his work at Mike plume.com right? Eat that. I thank you so much for joining me and being on the podcast. It's great to catch up. We didn't even get to the we didn't even get to the voiceover, stuff we didn't even know to the and, you know, contacting each other for the announcement of the birth of our children and stuff from. To the front of the stage at the side track Cafe and on the phone at the gray nuns hospital. Yeah, isn't that crazy? There's a million things with all of the stories, everything from Christmas in a brick parking lot to 911 to getting pulled over and throwing jail in Europe. There's we could probably do this twice over and and still have time left over to do some more.

Mike Plume  1:00:23  
We should. We should do another episode somewhere down the road. I think that would be fun. You were the first person I called it was an, it was a, it was a, I don't remember the day, and pretty good with dates, and I could probably figure it out pretty quick, but I don't have it off the top my head. But it was in August of 1999 and and we were in Southern California, and you were the first person I called to tell my my slash story.

Terry Evans  1:00:57  
There's, there have been so many that we have laughed over the years at It's remarkable. I can

Mike Plume  1:01:04  
remember that I said, Terry, your knock set out. Just have a seat. Man, I got to tell you this story, because this is crazy,

Terry Evans  1:01:11  
actually. And one more thing, Mike, pplm.com for your music. But you also have, what is the there's a resource where people can go, where you've written stories, multiple stories, and sub, sub stack, yes,

Mike Plume  1:01:24  
okay, that is a great

place for anybody who wants to do writing and have people, you know, people have access to reading it and stuff like that. Listen, people say to me all the time, are always saying, hey, when's your book coming out? I'm like, you know how much it costs to make a book? I mean, it's, it's insane. You know, like 1000 to print 1000 copies is going to be a $15,000 touch. Man, it's like, I don't know if I, I don't know if I want to be carrying around 800 copies of this book for the next 10 years. You know what I mean. So

Terry Evans  1:01:56  
it's a lot of traction for the back of your trunk. And you know what? You should look into it again, because my cousin just did it with a family history of my family on my dad's side, and it's not as expensive, expensive as you might think. So it might be worth checking into the

Mike Plume  1:02:13  
I might look into it my, I think my, I would just be so paranoid of typos that I don't think I would ever get around to, like, I'll post these stories, and then I'll read them. I'm like, Oh my God, how did I spell there, there instead of there? What the hell was I thinking? And then I go back, and I can at least go back in and change it. But once it's on a book, then you look, is it? Once you print

Terry Evans  1:02:34  
it to edit it? Oh, let somebody else edit it.

Mike Plume  1:02:37  
Yeah, I know. I got this app where I where I dump everything I write into it, and it's sort of it. I do. I do have an app brought to you by Grammarly.

Terry Evans  1:02:51  
It's been a real treat having you on. Man, I appreciate you. Man, this was great fun. Thanks for this. Man, love to Ruby and Jenny and the rest of the family. And love you. Matt, take

Mike Plume  1:03:02  
care of yourself. Man, thanks for everything. Reluctantly,

Terry Evans  1:03:05  
today's podcast is brought to you by Mike plume.com songs, stories, mumblings, musings and Mike plume the song harvester EP from royalty records. Listen to Mike plume's music on all your streaming services better yet. Purchase it at Mike plume.com reluctantly, you.