Andrew Oland: Leadership Lessons of a Brewery CEO

Emily Rodger  0:00  
Hi, I'm Emily Rodger, host of the Boiling point podcast. My co-host Dave Veale and I will bring you thoughtful discussions with leaders who are positively impacting our world. This is the Boiling Point, where leadership and inspiration meet. Hello, Dave Veale. 

Dave Veale  0:19  
Long time. 

Emily Rodger  0:21  
Yeah, well, since yesterday.

Dave Veale  0:24  
Oh, that's true. Yeah. We did a run through, the tech works. Yeah, I shouldn't say that. Because that'll jinx it right there. But it was more my tech that we generally are worried about, than your tech. But that was- yeah, it was good to catch up with you yesterday. And you know, for the listeners, you know, we generally have this- I have a question that was like, where- where's Emily been lately? And I think the last- every time I ask you this question, you know, some exotic place, but the last trip, pretty amazing. So maybe you can give just a quick highlight of what you've been doing over the last few weeks. 

Emily Rodger  1:02  
Mm hmm. Yeah, I've spent the last five weeks over in Africa. Was filming a documentary there around sustainable travel and conservation. So with wildlife and with fly fishing, and community involvement, and so was in South Africa and Lisutu and Botswana and Gabon, and so did a couple of weeks at a safari and then a couple of weeks fly fishing. And then I spent my Christmas doing a gorilla trek, which was a- that's not a part of the documentary, that was just something that I have always wanted to do since watching Gorillas in the Mist way back in, I think, 1987. So it was kind of fulfilling a life long childhood dream, and just had such a fantastic time. And just yeah, still all slowly kind of settling in, it feels quite surreal. But I think that the most beautiful thing is that it was captured on film. And so the rest of the world and all the Boiling Point listeners will be able to see some of the things that we captured while there.

Dave Veale  2:12  
I can't wait. I actually found it interesting that you had said this prior to going, that you did not want the cameras on the gorilla portion. And the reason for that was..?

Emily Rodger  2:24  
You know, I think that there's certain things in life that we just need to fully experience on our own. And I took a few photos and videos like while I was in with the gorillas, like kind of amongst them, but not too much. Because I think that so often it- yeah, I just didn't want anything to take away from an experience that was just really important for me. And I'm glad that it went that way. And it was just- just a beautiful, really special moment. And it was so fascinating to see this gorilla family that had like eight or nine gorillas in it, and just the family dynamics amongst them was hilarious, I'm like, everything else now makes sense. Like no wonder humans are the way that they are. There was the little boys in the background, like getting into mischief. And this like, one kind of teenage girl that was like too good to talk to anybody.

Dave Veale  3:21  
Were you hanging out with my family?

Emily Rodger  3:24  
Yeah, I was actually.

Andrew Oland  3:26  
That is hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Well, I look forward to hearing more. Let's move on, because I don't have anything nearly as exciting to say over the last 5 weeks, other than getting a little sick, taking a trip to Halifax. But I did spend some great time with family. So that was- that was awesome. And you know, I don't want to downplay that. But nothing as exotic as traveling to Africa. But I look forward to getting more information, and- and actually, you know, seeing this documentary, it'd be really cool. So let's welcome our guest. We're gonna bring in Andrew Oland. And we're doing this a little different. There's Andrew. Hi, Andrew.

Hi, Dave. Hi, Emily. 

Emily Rodger  4:06  
Hi, Andrew, welcome to the Boiling Point.

Andrew Oland  4:09  
Thank you very much. It's great to be on the Boiling Point.

Dave Veale  4:12  
Happy to have you. And so what we're doing, Andrew, a little bit different. I'm going to do a quick intro of you. And then you're going to tell me if I got it right, or what I missed, and add to it if that's okay. So I'll start with, Andrew is the president and CEO of Canada's Moosehead Breweries. It's independently owned and family run. We really want to dig into that, because that's- I find that fascinating. He serves on numerous boards, including Enterprise St. John, Beer Canada, which- I'd love to learn more about Beer Canada as a big beer fan, myself. Atlantic Institute for Market Studies, Tech Canada. He became the president of Moosehead breweries in 2008, and has been the CEO since 2013. Is that factually correct?

Andrew Oland  5:00  
Yes, that's- that's factually correct. Just a little bit of a history for your listeners in terms of Moosehead Breweries: In 1865, Susanna Oland, who would be my great, great, great grandmother. She moved from England to Halifax, Nova Scotia with her nine children. And her husband John had gone on to Halifax a year ahead. And they were looking for a way to start to live the Canadian dream. And Susanna was a brewer in England. They were able to secure some funding, started a brewery in 1867, the same year we became a country. A couple of years later, John, her husband, died. They didn't have the whole thing papered as well as they should have, Susanna actually lost the brewery. Continued to work at the brewery and brew the beer, was able to buy the business back a few years later. And here we are. 156 years later, we are the largest independent brewery in Canada, largest brewery owned by Canadians. And the brewery is run by my brother Patrick, our CFO, and myself, and then a great management and leadership team.

Emily Rodger  6:20  
Okay, Andrew, this story just got way more interesting.

Andrew Oland  6:25  
I can go through it, but essentially, at every generation they had, like, either a big decision or a big event, including the Halifax explosion, so largest manmade explosion prior to the nuclear bombs of World War Two. My grandfather literally went to war for three years during World War Two. My- we are headquartered in Saint John, New Brunswick. My father, in the early 60s, he went to one of these classic sort of Board of Trade type dinners, and there was a sign behind the speaker that said, export or die. And that was the inspiration for us to expand outside of Atlantic Canada. And because of some rules in Canada, restarting- regarding selling beverage alcohol, we were actually selling beer in the United States before we were selling beer outside of Atlantic Canada. The way it worked, so- so it's a- it's a really fun business, a challenging business, and look forward to sharing more with you.

Dave Veale  6:46  
Well, thank you for that. That's- that's so important. I'm glad you dug it up. Because the family history is rich. I've heard some of that before. Well, actually, one question I have, is I- and we- I was talking to a brewer. And she was telling me that originally it women were the brewers. Like, so your- your- your great, great, great grandmother, Susanna, like that was more commonplace. 

Andrew Oland  7:58  
Yes, that's true. I mean, if you- if you think back to- to history, through the Middle Ages and just before, everyone drank beer, and the reason was because particularly in Europe, the water just wasn't safe. Like the water would kill you. It was so contaminated. And one of the things that happens with beer is that beer has to be boiled. And so, so literally, young children would go from being nursed to drinking sort of a very light alcohol beer, but which would have been nutritions- nutrition element that beer has, and then just beer became- that was what it was like, 13th, 14th, 15th century throughout Europe.

Dave Veale  8:39  
Emily, I know you got a whole bunch of questions.

Emily Rodger  8:41  
I know, this is where it's like, okay, Emily, don't take over the entire conversation. 

Dave Veale  8:46  
Take over! Take over. 

Emily Rodger  8:48  
No, but you did, Dave, you asked my question around- of it being predominantly women that were brewers, is that still the case, or..? 

Andrew Oland  8:57  
No, so what would have happened is that for probably the last 100 odd years, the brewing industry was- was a male dominated industry, as most- many industries were. But then I think in the last 20 years or so, we've started to see a lot more- a lot more women get into the beer business and get into it, get into brewing.

Dave Veale  9:21  
So how many generations is it now with you and Patrick? Like, what- what generation are you?

Andrew Oland  9:25  
So Patrick and I are generation six. My father Derek's obviously generation five, and then all of- I have three adult children. So they've all worked in the brewery, summer positions. Two of Patrick's children have, so we've got multiple members of generation seven that have worked in- in the brewery, and- I think two things, though. First of all, my father Derek, who's 84, he has a great expression: Nose in, hands out. So he wants to know what's going on, but he lets Patrick and I run- run the business. And then in terms of the whole transition succession planning, we have a rule in the family, which came from my father, that you have to work outside the business before you go into the business. So you can do whatever you're going to do, sort of post secondary education, go somewhere else, learn, make some mistakes, get some good experience. And then if it's a fit for both parties, both the business and the individual, there may be opportunities to join the business.

Dave Veale  10:37  
Like it's not a foregone conclusion. 

Andrew Oland  10:38  
Definitely not, definitely not. I mean, if you think every group of five year old hockey players on the ice, their parent's like, oh, my Johnny's going to play in the NHL, right? Well, there's- we know what that's- and business is, it's a good fit for some people. It's not for others. And in particular, I'll call it senior leadership roles, are a good fit for some, but they may not be for all. And the individuals need to take the time to figure that out for themselves.

Emily Rodger  11:10  
And so what was your journey, Andrew?

Andrew Oland  11:12  
So my journey is after- after university, the only place I knew I wasn't going to go work was Moosehead. So I looked around, I was living in Halifax at the time, and I ended up working at a shipyard in Halifax, as a management trainee. Did that for a couple of years. It was- it was just a lovely way to be exposed to everything from the production side or the business sales side, the finance side, labor relations, so it was really good experience. And then I actually was involved in the construction of a tugboat there, which last time I was in Halifax, it still- still- it hasn't sunk yet. So that's a good sign. And then came to Moosehead in 1993. Started in our- in the- what we call our packaging departments, that's where we actually put the beer in the bottles, and bottles in the case. And then spent some time in brewing. Then I wanted to make a transition from the production side of the business to what we call the commercial side, which is sales and marketing. So I went back to school, did an MBA. And then after that I had a series of roles, both sales and marketing. And then I was sitting in my office in December of 2007, and my father's assistant called me up and said, your father'd like to see you and in his office, and a little unusual that he would want to see me. So I went down. And he said, the gentleman who's current president has just resigned, and we'd like you to be the next president. And my immediate thought was, don't say anything, get out of the room as quickly as you can, they may change your mind if you say something stupid, so- And so it definitely- it was- it was- it was a touch earlier than sort of I was expected. But you know, these things that- there's- there's no perfect timing. And so it's been an interesting run since.

Dave Veale  13:19  
Is there like a certain amount of pressure that comes along with that? You know, you have that meeting with your father, you recognize that wow, it's- you know, I'm going to be carrying the mantle here, with my brother. =I guess you wouldn't have known at that time. I don't know if Pat- where Patrick's role was at that point. But I'm just- I'm just trying to get a sense of like- like, that's a that's a big commitment, and ask, given, you know, being the sixth generation, and the legacy and all those sorts of things. 

Andrew Oland  13:46  
Yeah, I mean, I think it's- it's- it's no different than the pressure that anyone else has to perform and to do a job well, you can't go into into a role thinking, okay, I just can't screw this up. I just- you know, I can't. That's not how you approach things. And- but I think, in most people's cases, and certainly in my case, pressure's part of the motivation, right? You know, what makes you work hard, what makes you grind through, and over time, you develop resilience, and you get stronger. 

Emily Rodger  14:22  
What would the most, or some of the most, valuable lessons for you have been, when you look back now and even look at like working in the shipyard, or for the tugboat, of lessons that you learned outside of Moosehead Breweries that you were really able to bring into your current position now?

Andrew Oland  14:40  
Yeah, I think that what I learned before I came in, is that in many ways, all businesses have so many similarities in terms of a team working together trying to develop a common objective and then- and then execute on- on- on that objective. I think my shipyard experience, the biggest learning there was just how much practical information, knowledge and ideas that the frontline workers have. And the tremendous opportunity when you can tap in to- to the folks who are closest to the work, or really doing the work.

Dave Veale  15:28  
And I've had the luxury of seeing you in a group of leaders, and- and I'm curious about how you describe your leadership style?

Andrew Oland  15:35  
Well, my leadership style is still evolving. But I would say that my leadership style is, I try to be collaborative. I'm working to provide- with the team, but ultimately myself- to provide more clarity to the organization. And I believe the best leaders ask really, really good questions. And that's something that I've been challenging myself on. If I had sort of a do over, Andrew today versus Andrew 2008, I've learned the hard way was, it's fine to say, I don't know the answer. And maybe it's not my job to find out the answer. Maybe it's your job. And so it's more about, what are those questions that we should be- I should be asking, we should be asking ourselves, as opposed to immediately going into solution mode.

Dave Veale  16:36  
You're speaking to two- two coaches. So we appreciate that, Andrew, and I hope people are listening to what Andrew's saying, related to the value of asking really good questions and not coming in with a solution. 

Emily Rodger  16:48  
You got an A plus on your answer, Andrew, as soon as you said that your- that your leadership style was ever evolving. It was like, I had my checklist. Yup.

Dave Veale  16:59  
And there's a humility about that, that is really appreciated, right? You know, and a confidence too, Andrew, like, from my perspective sitting on the outside, I mean, that- not everyone says- answers this question that way. 

Andrew Oland  17:09  
I was just thinking about this over the weekend, 'cause I knew I was going to be on this podcast. And I thought I'd tell the story as- we all remember COVID. And for me, COVID started in the night the NBA shut down. And then I was at an off site meeting on the Thursday, came back to the office on the Friday, there was lots going on. I remember one of my children called me in the afternoon of Friday and said, their offices sent everyone home. And I remember thinking, wow, they are sort of overreacting. And then we- we ended up, as everyone else did, sending everyone home we could on- on the Monday, but yet we were still functioning, brewing beer, packaging beer, doing all that type of stuff. But if you remember the time, people were talking like COVID, we need a two weeks cert- circuit breaker, we just need to slow things down for a while. And that weekend, I spent a lot of time online, just reading, and I read a lot of Bill Gates stuff. And his message was look, this- this could be years. And you have to prepare for that. And I can tell you, I was not in that frame of mind when that weekend began. And I can remember coming back first thing Monday morning when we had our, whatever, 9am call with my senior team. And I just said to them, Look, we have to think about this differently. We have to be prepared that this could go for- for years. And I'm a- I'm a little bit embarassed of how I might have- how I acted the first week, in terms of being not a COVID denier, but just not fully understanding it. And then fortunate, I was- I was intuitive enough to go and try to get some perspective from some other folks who were- were more up to date with what's going on with pandemics. And- and that was- that was fundamental for us, in terms of just dealing with COVID.

Dave Veale  19:04  
Well it was- it was such a weird time, like even for you to bring us back to that. Like it's- you know, it's reminding me of- and it was just so many unknowns, and I- Listen, I- I can relate because I thought, oh, this will be a nice two week break. And then we'll get back to it. Right? And then after that two weeks, I don't know- for me, it became, oh my goodness. Like, this isn't good. Like, how do we- how do we make sure we survive this, as a business? You know? 

Andrew Oland  19:29  
Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, that- that was- I mean, I had that sort of one week of, you know, we're going to be back soon. And then it was really that Bill Gates stuff that just reinforced like, this is the new normal, and we have to assume this is the new normal going- going forward. So- so we're always learning, we're always learning.

Emily Rodger  19:51  
I love your concept around the nose in, hands out, and what a simple, four-word thing that holds such great impact. And you know, with that I'm curious of like, obviously, like you are someone who is very introspective, when you look at your leadership styles and being the CEO, what are like the tendencies where you have to catch yourself? Or are there, where you want to be hands in, nose out?

Andrew Oland  20:21  
The first one is like, I've never been afraid to make a decision. I love making decisions, right? So I can, whether it's my personal life or business life, let's- let's make the decision. We can- we can talk about it later, let's make the decision first. So really sort of slowing down. And- and taking the time, whether it's smaller decisions or bigger decisions. And then the second would be, I've learned, you know, I need to speak last, or I need to speak later. And that even if I think my comments are perhaps, say, setting up a conversation or relatively minor, they can influence the conversation. And- and what I don't want, is I don't want people to see that I'm going this way. Okay, okay, we all gotta go that way. Because really the most value is when you can have all of the different perspectives. And so what I've tried to do with questions, and it's still very much a work in progress is, okay, let's put some questions on the table that really force us just to think about this in a different way. So if we did this, and it didn't work, what- what would that- why would that be? Would our competitors want us to make this decision? What decision would our competitors not want us to? If we made this decision, what's the worst thing that could- could happen? And- and that takes- that takes the discipline of giving yourself time. And that's something that- I like to be busy. And so I'm still a work in progress. But I've learned that you have to- you have to take the appropriate time to get some stuff done.

Dave Veale  22:07  
That's a really nice segue into- we got a little cheat sheet here. And I remember hearing your father say this, I believe it was Derek said this. I don't want to be the biggest, I just want to be around the longest. How does that adjust how you would be leading if- you know, if, in fact, that's a statement you're- you're, you know, kind of built around?

Andrew Oland  22:28  
Yeah, no, it's a statement that, you know, father's made for many, many years, and that my brother and I firmly embrace. I mean, I think some of your listeners may have heard Simon Sinek talk, and he talks about, you know, a finite game and an infinite game. And really, you know, the statement is all about just, we're playing an infinite game here. Yes, we measure ourselves from time to time, but ultimately, it's just how do we get that, or sort of each and every day, every quarter, every year, across a broad spectrum of measurements, so that we're- so that we're a more successful business, and set up for long term- long term success. And- and that's the inspiration from my father. That's what we try to do here every day.

Emily Rodger  23:17  
I love the self awareness that you have about knowing that you just love to make a decision.

Andrew Oland  23:26  
You know, we all have our- we all have our- the way we're wired. And I'm- I have a confidence. So I'm- I'm- I'm prepared to- to suffer the- I'll call it the risk reward in terms of a wrong decision, whether you're in a foreign city, and it's where are we going for supper. Oh, that looks good. Let's go there. Why would we take the time to read the review on Google, it looks good. Like, let's just go in there, right? So I'm sure a little bit of it is sort of a bit of a dopamine rush from just making decisions, getting something done, going on to the going on to the next one.

Dave Veale  24:15  
So if you think of your tenure, like, what are the most important decisions you've made, or been part of making? Or you know, or the business has made with your leadership, to be still relevant in 2024? Because I'm guessing there's points in time where, you know, you guys would have had to make some serious adjustments based on the market conditions. And, you know, you've got probably- I mean, you've got very strong competition out there, and people flooding the market with all these- the craft brewery industry, and I just can imagine all the forces, and you mentioned, like, the provincial challenges, you know, just getting across provincial borders. And, you know, there's- I mean, there's no lack of challenges in your business. 

Andrew Oland  24:56  
Yeah. So I think that the first thing was just, change is coming. And then after that, we're going to have more change. And then after that more change. I think, if I reflect back on 2008, there was an- there was an element of, well, why can't we just go back to the way it used to be? Why, why why do we have to operate this way? Why? Why is this happening? Or why is that happening? And so, without getting into the specifics across a lot of different spectrums of the business, so, you know, part of that is then talking and being very- you have to be quite vocal about, this is just the reality and trying to connect folks with- you know, if you think about the realities in their life at the time, and how things were changing, and how that applies to- to- to our business, and then from there, you know, you have to figure out which people are going to be able to join you on that journey of change and improvement. Because, you know, some- some are challenged by that. And you- you need to give people the appropriate amount of time, but not too much time. So there was- there was definitely some transition, some transition there. And then, I- when I came in, I personally made a big commitment to safety in the organization. I thought it was, one, just vitally important for- for- for the reason, first of all, it's- it's morally the right thing. But also, just the safer you are as an organization, the better you're going to perform. It's less accidents, you're doing things right the first way. And- and it was- it was a way of- of- of challenging the organization to think- to think differently. And so I'm very proud of that, that safety journey. And then from there, it became, okay, now that we've sort of- we've accepted change, we're on the safety journey, what- how do we just create this culture of improvement? That we're- where we're just- it's not that we're never satisfied. It's just we're always looking at the biggest opportunities, and how do we address that opportunity, and then move forward, and then wrapping it all around that is- is our consumer. And often in business, we get the consumer and the customer mixed up. The consumer is the end user, you buy the product, typically through a customer, but the consumer- if- particularly if you're consumer packaged goods such as beer, so you go to a retailer or bar, you buy- that's the customer and the consumer buys it from them. And so we need to meet the needs of our customers. But ultimately, it's our- it's our consumers, the stronger our brands are, and the more consumer pull we have, the better we'll all be. That would be sort of the big- if I look back over the last 15, 16 years, the big changes that we as a team attacked and implemented.

Dave Veale  28:17  
It's almost like cultural change I'm hearing. You know, you had to- had to address, you know, some things that needed to be shifted in the culture, I'm guessing. 

Andrew Oland  28:25  
Yeah, I mean, I think that in many family businesses, if you go back 30, 40, 50 years, there was an element of, we won't tell you so you don't have to worry.

Emily Rodger  28:37  
Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Oland  28:40  
How's the business? I don't know, doesn't- you know, we're not gonna tell you financials, we're not going to talk about things, because we don't talk about that. But the corollary of that is, okay, well just come to work and do your thing. And you just can't run a business like that in- in- in the 21st century. So- so we've been much more- much more open in terms of telling our employees and all of our employees in terms of performance and what's working well, what's- what's not. And that's a journey, because there's a- there's an educational component to that, there's many people who- they deal with revenue, they deal with the increases, decreases in- in costs or in revenue as part of their business, but there's others who don't, you know, they're coming in and they just- they have a specific area, whether it could be IT, whether it could be production, and so, lots of effort in terms of increasing business acumen across the entire workforce.

Emily Rodger  29:49  
I think too, in listening to you speak about the change, which was the first one that you brought up, and in that I hear that like you- you as a leader, teach people how to navigate the small changes, so that when the bigger changes come, they are more manageable. And it's like- that we- yeah, I mean, we need to kind of learn how to ride the small waves first before we ride the big ones. But how much are we actually paying attention to those small waves, and those small changes, to be really able to learn about ourselves, our companies, our organizations, to be able to successfully navigate the bigger things?

Andrew Oland  30:29  
Exactly. And having that- that self awareness and that confidence? Oh, wow, that's a competitor, they're doing something different. Well, that looks stupid. That's- that's not the response. Right? The response is, well, they're pretty bright people, I wonder what they know that we don't know, or that they've- and then on the bigger stuff, I was- I was very fortunate to have a mentor, and yet, he just had an expression, he called it the brutal facts. And so often in business, it's gonna get better next year, or a certain employee, that they're- all of a sudden, they're going to act differently, or this- it's- it's most likely not going to happen. It's just- it's the- it's the reality of the situation. So you have to take the time to be comfortable and- and address that. And- and then figure out how you're going to react to that in a manner so that you can- you can grow, and you can win. But it's- it's- it's challenging, because- and we all do it. It's- there's a comfort zone with where we are today. And- and moving- and moving into something that is- that is unknown. And I think the world we're living in today is just- there's- there's so- the pace of change is just so much quicker. And just because it worked 5, 10 years ago, doesn't mean it's working today, and certainly isn't gonna work tomorrow.

Dave Veale  32:01  
No truer words were said. It's so true. You both have something in common that you may or may not be aware of. And that is that you both emceed a L'Arche event. And I think that's pretty cool. I was just thinking about that, it just kind of came to me that I believe the first one that Frank McKenna was speaking at was you, Andrew, is that- am I- am I wrong? 

Andrew Oland  32:01  
Yeah. No. That's the folks in Saint John. They asked me to get involved. And I was- I was honored to, and it's- to me L'Arche is- it's a great example of community. And it's a great example of, I would say, community it is best, and giving some folks who perhaps don't- are- don't have all the advantages that some people have to still- to live fulfilling lives. And I've certainly gotten a lot more out of L'Arche than I've given to L'Arche, it's been- it's been very, very valuable, very valuable.

Emily Rodger  33:00  
Yeah, maybe we'll co emcee next year, Andrew.

Andrew Oland  33:04  
That would be great, Emily. And one of the things- just to speak on L'Arche for a moment, because the other speaker at that event was a gentleman named Martin Chesaint, who's a buddy of mine, and I've known for many years, he's had a- now an adult son with intellectual difficulties. And the challenge becomes, is what happens to that individual when the parents die, you know, and- or as the parents age? And so L'Arche has just done an amazing job of being able to transition those young adults into- into a meaningful life experience, which just- as a parent, just must be so relieving that- that that is taken care of, because obviously, none of us are gonna be here forever.

Dave Veale  33:57  
No, and Martin was- was actually on this podcast a number of years ago sharing- sharing a- and what was wonderful about- he just speaks from the heart, doesn't he? I appreciate you bringing that up. Because, you know, there is a leader, right? And, you know, and he was an executive at Xerox, he brought the contact centers into Atlantic Canada, and he's just done some amazing things. So Martin is just an amazing individual, for sure. But it kind of leads me to like this idea of giving back. So that's obviously really important to you.

Andrew Oland  34:29  
Yeah, I mean, I think that all of us who are in a position to give back, and the more you're in a position to give back, the more you should give back, one way or another. But I also, and I talk particularly to- to our younger employees here at Moosehead. I mean, getting involved in- in volunteer and not for profit, it's- it's just an amazing way to develop your skill set, to be exposed to different leaders, to be challenged and so yes, obviously it's giving back. But you can- you can also get something out of it, particularly early in your career. And I can assure you, I've- I've gotten back a lot more from everything that I've been involved in than I've given. Just tremendous experiences, tremendous friendships. I was- I think, as I spoke to at the beginning, I grew up in Halifax, and 1993, moved from Halifax to St. John with my young family. And St. John's a relatively small place, Moosehead's relatively high profile. So it's sort of everyone knows Andrew, and Andrew doesn't know anyone. So I was talking to someone at Moosehead, and they suggested I get involved with the St. John Board of Trade. And it was just a lovely experience. I have an interest in that- that type of policy side of things. So I enjoyed the discussion and the work, but it just enabled me to create a strong network here. And then because of that, you want to grow the network. And particularly when you move to a new- at anytime it really- if you move to a new community, if you can figure out a way to get involved somehow in volunteering, it's very, very helpful. 

Emily Rodger  36:19  
Yeah, and I love hearing you say about how- that you've received more back from L'Arche than what you have given, and I think that in giving in general, whether it is monetary, our time, compassion, like we do always end up receiving more. 

Andrew Oland  36:37  
Oh, yeah, y'know most of us, we have what we need. So the opportunity to have these experiences is- it's- really money can't buy them. And- but you have to- you have to stick your neck out there. You have to challenge yourself. And it's- it's- it's- sometimes, we talk about it a lot at Moosehead, talk about how difficult it's to run a marathon. Running a marathon is not the hard part, the hard part is the first time you decide you're gonna go out and run and walk for 10 minutes just to start that journey. Right? The last step of the marathon, that's- people are cheering, that's easy. It's when you first go out Saturday morning at 7am, and- and- and I think that's- if there's one message I can give to folks, is just the value of just putting yourself out there and- and challenging people to- to- there are lots of organizations out there that are looking for for people to help out.

Emily Rodger  37:42  
Dave, what I thought you were gonna mention as the similarity was- because I know that Andrew is a cyclist. 

Dave Veale  37:48  
Yeah, well, that- there's that too. 

Emily Rodger  37:50  
Also, I mean, I want to dive into the like, chat about beer topic. Obviously, you drink the beer, you don't just, like, produce it and market it and everything else.

Andrew Oland  38:02  
Yep. Beer is the third most popular beverage in the world. 

Emily Rodger  38:07  
Get out. 

Andrew Oland  38:09  
After water and tea.

Emily Rodger  38:11  
Tea number two? I guess so. Wow.

Andrew Oland  38:15  
And I'm biased. I'm a firm believer that moderate consumption of beer is part of a healthy lifestyle. There is no fat in beer, per milliliter ounce base. There's more calories in skim milk than there are in a glass of beer. So I'm a firm believer that- that beer can be part of a healthy lifestyle. But it's like everything else. It has to be in moderation, and it has to be in conjunction with proper diet and exercise. Exercise is a big part of my life. One, I like it. Two, in order to function, to perform, I need to sleep. I'm not one of these people who can go and go on five hours a night I need 7, 8, 7, 7 and a half hours of sleep every night. And we all have stress in our lives. And exercise is part of how I get rid of the stress, helps the sleep. And then I used to run a little bit, or not a little bit, a fair amount. I just found as I got into my late 30s that it's a lot of pounding on the joints. And that's when I moved over to cycling. And I really really enjoy cycling. It's something you can do as a group. Something you can do on your own. I can do it indoors. I can do it outside. It's one of the lovely parts of my life, would be cycling.

Dave Veale  38:23  
Well Emily would probably agree with that.

Emily Rodger  39:48  
Yeah, definitely up there. Yeah. So what's your favorite beer, Andrew?

Andrew Oland  39:53  
Any one that we make and you're buying. No, I'm just joking.

Emily Rodger  39:58  
There's the businessman we've been looking for.

Andrew Oland  40:04  
So what I would do is- I am going to get to an answer here. But I cycle through all of our beers on a regular basis, because I want to be making sure that that the quality and the- and the taste is consistent with what- where we should be. I also drink my competitors' beer on a regular basis. Now you're not going to find me in St. John, New Brunswick ordering a Bud Light at the local bar, that's not going to happen. You don't have to worry about that. I will figure out a way, and I predominantly drink beer. I think my my favorite beer is Alpine Lager, which is more of an East Coast beer. It was created in 1937 by my grandfather, Philip Oland. And there's an interesting story here. He had gone to brewing school, he'd been exposed to lager beers, which are us a different type of yeast, and they're lighter, and ales, which are what we had been brewing prior. My great grandfather was in Boston at the time, having surgery, and they were chatting on the phone. And my great grandfather said, I hear you have this new beer. I look forward to trying it. And perhaps, you know, we might even consider selling it. That- Philip, my grandfather, paused and said, well, it's actually been on the market for about two weeks. And it's doing rather well. So to me, what sort of defines family businesses, like the next generation, they have to ask for the order a bit. Like you have to- you have to push things a bit. It can't be obnoxious and reckless. But you do have to say, look, at some point, this is most likely going to be mine. And this is- this is the direction that we- we need to go. And so I love beer and and I love working for a brewery. It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.

Dave Veale  42:04  
That description there of your great grandfather and your grandfather is a total nose in, hands out, right? Like I mean, isn't that the perfect example? A small story. I'm a big fan of Moosehead, I always buy Moosehead products. I love Cracked Canoe, it's kind of- it's my favorite. It's just nice and light. And it just goes down too well, actually. So the moderation piece is a little bit tricky, but it's only- it's only 3.5%. So I always feel a little bit better about that. So we're having a big party. And I would typically buy a two four of- of Cracked Canoe or Moose Light as one of the things, and someone coming to a party, I won't name who it is, was a big fan of Bud Light. So I thought, well, I should get some Bud Light. And we had some Cracked Canoe already or whatever- Moose Light I guess at the time, and I was walking out of the liquor store and who do I run into, but Patrick. And with a big thing. And I felt like I had to explain to him I said, Patrick, I don't usually- like I was just trying to like- I was so embarrassed, right? Honestly, you know, like I felt like I had to explain. He just laughed and said, you know, I'm like no, no, but really, like this is- this never happens. So I went to the party and I told everyone, I said, look, you guys, you guys really screwed me here. Because I'm legitimately a huge fan. And there's nothing as a New Brunswicker I think is cooler than when I'm away somewhere, and I inevitably see like a green bottle with the Moosehead sticker on it. It's- it's a weirdly proud thing as a New Brunswicker. So I can only imagine what that like must be like for you.

Andrew Oland  42:12  
Yeah, it really is. I mean, I had received a LinkedIn message this morning. And it's a picture of Moosehead Radler from Costa Rica. 

Dave Veale  43:44  
Wow. 

Andrew Oland  43:45  
Yeah. So it's lovely. And I have endless stories of consumers, folks coming up to me and sending me images and things like that. And that's what we're trying to do each day, just build more and more of those. But Dave, your story of walking out of the liquor store is- is- is cute, right. It's just- yeah. And I think that the beer business does get in your- it really really gets in your- it gets in your blood. And probably the only one that's similar would be sort of the Coke versus Pepsi thing. That's- I- our Vice President of Sales and Marketing, Trevor Grant. When I interviewed him, he was working for Pepsi. And we were- this was many years ago, and we were using a headhunter. We were meeting at one of the head o- headhunter's just meeting rooms, and they put a selection of soft drinks on the table. And they were all Coke products. And I could just see Trevor's, like, the steam coming out of his ears and he was trying to focus as he had this can of coke, like, within arm's reach. And that's one of the reasons I hired Trevor, because I just saw that passion. It really gets in your blood. 

Dave Veale  44:58  
Loyalty. That's Awesome

Emily Rodger  45:00  
Well we're gonna send you a Bud Light thank you package for being on the Boiling Point podcast.

Dave Veale  45:07  
Actually, there's one thing I want to co- comment on, is- is- if you have the g- which you will, Emily, I'm certain, have the good fortune of- of interacting with the Moosehead group in any capacity. They give you the best speaker gifts. Like all the swag and product and everything, and you know, you feel like- I think for someone who's a big fan it's like, this is the best.

Andrew Oland  45:30  
One fan at a time. Yeah.

Dave Veale  45:33  
Oh man, it's so great.

Emily Rodger  45:34  
Are you just sitting in like a Moosehead onesie when you're home?

Dave Veale  45:39  
Well, I was- I was gonna wear some swag today. And I thought ahh, that's going a little over the top. But a super big fan, Andrew, and I so enjoyed this conversation. Like I really appreciate your perspective and humility in terms of sharing where you're at. I just think it's so valuable for other leaders to hear. And, you know, many thanks for joining us today. I'm gonna let Emily wrap it up, because she'll have some some wise thoughts, I'm sure, but you're always welcome to come back at any time. It's just been a real pleasure having you on.

Andrew Oland  46:11  
Thank you very much, Dave. Appreciate it.

Emily Rodger  46:13  
Yeah, ditto what Dave said, Andrew. I look forward to having the pleasure of meeting you in person, in speaking for Moosehead so I can get my onesie. Oh, I'll take a- a Moosehead cycling kit. That's what it'll be, okay, for my speaker gift? 

Andrew Oland  46:33  
Sounds good.

Emily Rodger  46:34  
Can I request the swag? Not only- not only am I telling you that you're booking me as a speaker, I'm requesting my swag bag. But Andrew, thank you so much. Your insights were so valuable, I know to me and so the listeners as well. And so we will list all of Andrew's information and any extras we discussed today in the show notes, and the best place to find all of that is on our website. We're active on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter, and we will put the video version on YouTube and Facebook. And of course, the podcast is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms. 

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