Dr. Bill Howatt: Creating Deep Connections To Foster Growth

Emily Rodger  0:00  
Hi, I'm Emily Rodger hosted the boiling point podcast, my co host de Valle. And I will bring you thoughtful discussions with leaders who are positively impacting our world. This is the boiling point where leadership and inspiration means. I Dave, how're you doing today?

Dave Veale  0:19  
I'm doing well. I'm thinking about our last conversation with Kelly, Russell Divani. And connection, and we never got into it. But an actually this will tie into the next conversation with the guests gonna come on here. But what was it like this workshop that you went? And it was really focusing on? I guess, deepening connections? Is that? Is that what I understood it to be?

Emily Rodger  0:41  
Yeah, it was it was a group of Gosh, how many people? How many was there have a 10. And even the thing to around and Kelly talked about this, and you and I know this around this, like the importance of fostering relationships? And like, what's that kind of deeper thing in how the connections can be formed. And what I really noticed within that workshop was that it was however many of us 810, strangers brought in, nobody really knew one another, and how it's that like, kind of warm up period, when as you kind of create more of those relationships get to know each other a little bit more, feel a little more safer around people, that the conversations were able to go deep, fast, if that kind of safety. And if those relationships hadn't been established, I don't think we would have been able to connect as well, as we all did. And that was a lot of the feedback that I definitely heard from some of the other participants as well.

Dave Veale  1:42  
It was great conversation. And I think the conversation we're gonna have today kind of ties right into it. And I have this great connection to our guest, Bill Howard. He's someone I met, gosh, probably a decade ago. He and I were co hosts on this podcast. He's been a guest a few times, and I'm gonna get you to do the intro for him.

Emily Rodger  2:01  
Yes, Dr. Bill Howard is no stranger to the boiling point. He is a expert on workplace mental health, and has worked in the mental health and psychological safety for over 30 years, and has struggled with and succeeded with his mental health problems as well. Dr. Bill has a very open, honest and effective approach to mental health offering effectively tailored and commonly missed solutions to workplace mental health problems. He has written three books on taking control of mental health, getting at a psychological ruts and being present for growth to help readers grasp these concepts in greater depth. Dr. Bill, welcome back. Oh, my gosh, we just can't get enough of you.

Dr. Bill Howatt  2:50  
Can you pass that on to my children?

Dave Veale  2:54  
We will, we will. One of the things I really enjoy about you, Bill is and we touched on Emily touched on in the intro, your openness and willing to be vulnerable about you know, the challenges you've been up against? I mean, we're talking about connection or that was a point of connection for us early on is, you know, you're just very open about sharing, you know, here's, here's what I've been struggling with, here's what I've been going through, here's what I'm learning. Here's why I have an interest in this field. For the listeners that haven't heard us talk or speak on these topics before. What are some of the things that you've been grappling with and dealing with over the years? Like, what of your challenge has been? No thanks. 

Dr. Bill Howatt  3:31  
Well, welcome to YouTube listening to you guys. It sounds like you have a lot of fun in the show. And one of the things I guess David does start this conversation often is, is that I'm trying to actually get to the point where I can articulate this and be a little bit more clear and simpler. I'm becoming more of a steward or mindful of a concept called neuro divergence. And it's candidly, as for me, in the last few years, I've been learning actually about what this concept means in regards to empowerment. And in regards to removing some shame, and opening up some barriers and starting to normalize. For me, I've from the time I failed grade two, because I have auditory and visual dyslexia and ADHD, I'd be spending my entire life trying to figure out how to fit in how to be good enough, how to do enough mean, how to get enough education, so I could feel I was smart enough to fit in how I could write enough stuff to try to figure out how to have a point of view. And what I'm starting to become mindful more is that the importance for us all to kind of take a pause and step back and start to really stop falling for all those buzzwords in regards to this whole conversation around inclusion, diversity, equity accommodation. What I mean by buzzwords is that a lot of folks, there's putting lip service to this and they may not be sitting at it and trying to actually understand what any of this means. In the realm that I start with, and I guess it's somehow because I've, whether been thick skinned or slow, or whatever it may be, as I've been pretty good at advocating for myself. And I think that's one of the challenges of folks that have any type of disability is feeling comfortable and confident enough to self advocate. So I've spent a lot of time David be quite candidly talking about mental health and talking about these different issues. Right now I'm starting to really spend time to slow it down and say, Okay, what does mental health really mean, in the context in the workplace? What does inclusion really mean in the workplace? What does in regards to diversity? What are all the different subcategories that fall under that that need consideration of they have different experiences? What is an adversity load? What is neuro divergence? What is a marginalized employee really mean? Because we hear these things, we may not actually have enough understanding to actually have empathy. So that's kind of a nutshell, I mean, using myself my own experience on my reading, try to engage in this conversation with folks and pass it back to you for the conversation. David, I think the most important thing to me that the more I've learned about it is how disappointed I am that I didn't know I don't know what I know. Now, 20 years ago, the amount of relationships that I've probably blown up the amount of challenges I've created, trying just to be a human being and try to process what's happening real time. But getting overwhelmed and not actually realizing that, you know, there's nothing wrong with me, there's nothing wrong with them, the challenges has been the barrier of how to give space to be able to know how to communicate with each other. It doesn't have to be win or lose. And I've spent a lot of my life on win and lose. 

Emily Rodger  6:53  
I love that you share that story about great too, you know, reminds me of a story that I go back to and I speak a lot about this when I do public speaking is around my experience in grade two public speaking. And the story is that I recite the alphabet, like my teacher asked me in grade two to get up and recite the alphabet. And so I get up and I'm like, I've got this. And I was a very, very, very shy kid. And as I recite the alphabet, I finished the alphabet and the way that I thought it was, which was why n z. And so I thought that there were two ends in the alphabet because you know how they say it like W like Y and Z. And so my teacher asked me to recite it again. And I recited again, like so confidently like knowing like I am nailing the second end that a lot of kids don't even know about. And the entire class started laughing. And it was in that moment that I was like, I am never speaking again, in a public setting in front of a group, like that moment crushed me. And so even with that for you, why is that story for you of being in grade two. So important, and important to kind of reflect back on today. 

Dr. Bill Howatt  8:10  
That was the first time I really acknowledged that I was different than everyone else. I mean, I was adopted, I lived in a foster home early days, but that wasn't really such a big deal to me, because it was just kind of, you know, I was safe, I went from a place where I wasn't safe to a place where I was safe. So that was okay. So, you know, grade one was pretty cool. It was fun, you know, a great grade one teacher, lots of playing. And not that I can remember a lot of it. This is this, you know, recollection with my stories with my mother, though grade two was really where I had my first awakening, if you will, that I wasn't the same as every other duck. And that everyone else was going ahead and I was staying back. And that was where my inquest to try to prove that you're good enough and where you start to get kind of caught in that script. And that is a really a significant emotional event, because you're losing your social connections, and you're actually being rejected. And it actually traumatize so today when we talk about trauma, that's a form of trauma. Now some folks could be little it but trauma is any significant emotional event outside the realm of normal. So if your peer group is taken away from you, and you actually don't feel that you're valued or good enough and you don't understand why it can be traumatizing to you and trauma is a form of anxiety so it's based on what's called attachment theory where you're brought up and I have definitely as a kid being adopted would have attachment issues about loot worried about losing because you know losing a parent or losing something or being good enough. That starts at unconsciously and then you hit Get hit it great too. And then you know, the whole process he kind of go through and I've I look at it. As I look at the motif of my life, I really don't take myself that serious. I think some people might think I do. But I really don't take myself that serious. And I think I'd be trying to spend a lot of energy to be taken serious. It's an interesting juxtaposition. I mean, I don't drive a, I don't drive a Jager, a Porsche, I probably could afford it, I don't wear a Rolex like probably could afford it, I don't live in a, you know, $2 million house, I probably could afford it. I just, I've never really been taken by stuff. I'd be more taken by just trying to figure out how to feel calm. And that's been a long quest. Getting closer, not there yet, but it's getting closer. 

Dave Veale  10:46  
The work you do, and helping people on their own journeys, you know, in organizations, and every time we talk to you, there's almost seems like there's kind of new learning for you. Right, and like, maybe new understanding. And then it feels to me like build, what you do is you then tie your work to that. And you know, it's almost like to get a better understanding, like, there's just kind of these new levels of awareness that come in terms of what people are struggling with, and what a pandemic brings, and what does it mean to be a leader? What does it mean to be inclusive? What does psychological safety mean, all these sorts of things? What's bubbling up for you right now, Bill?

Dr. Bill Howatt  11:20  
I think it's really putting more focus back into the human. I think Emily said something fascinating was listening tentatively, you know, I have written the thought a lot about isolation, loneliness, and better relationships. What I'm spending a lot of time right now is this, here's what's really happening in the workforce, the workforce has evolved, we talk about the future of work is that folks are going to be more transit, they'll come and go. So I'm paused in this, follow this thread for a minute. 30 years ago, it'd be highly probable if I went and I joined it, whether it's a government, a factory, a dental practice, I probably would stay there for 1520, perhaps 30 years, it'd be 80 to 90% of people would stay in one place. What happens with that, while I get a sense of security, I get to know my clients, I get to know my customers, I get to know my space, I get to know my colleagues. You know, we'll have dying, you know, drama and dynamics, but there's a certain amount of stability. But in this world, now that we've started, I'm starting to realize what's much more high volatility, there's much more turnover. We've rethought about how we organize work, some folks are working remote some folks are moving in. So casual interactions and how people building relationships has changed. And so what I'm starting to realize is that, for all this work in the in the workplace, the thing that we don't spend probably enough time talking about is a thing called tacit knowledge. And tacit knowledge is really the gold every employer needs to survive. The explicit knowledge as the stuff you write in a book or things are written down policies. Tacit knowledge, are the things that you learn through experience and the things you share and feel comfortable talking to each other. So now, as we start to think about all the different functions and roles and businesses, I'm starting to notice that businesses life cycles are starting to shorten. There's not a whole lot of companies have been around for 100 years, companies now life cycles are getting shorter and shorter and shorter. There's more volatility, there's more pressure for finance, there's more pressure to to acquire. So the brands of an organization is important, but the loyalty to the brand may not be the same. It's kind of like the old Pepsi analogy, like, Pepsi had a 90% brand loyalty one time meaning if you walked into the store, and there wasn't Pepsi, you wouldn't buy it. But today, there's not as much brand loyalty you might get well, you might look for what's the most cheapest or economic. So what I'm really focusing on with all this, David is, is how do we put more human into a workplace? And how do we connect the dots and I focus a lot on what's called psychological health and safety, inclusion, the employee experience, what does that really mean and very simple. And we can get into all the different houses if you want. It's basically very easy. The percent of times employees are spending in positive emotions versus unpleasant emotions, every interaction that workplace is an opportunity to create a positive unpleasant emotion. Positivity toxicity is not what I'm talking about. The other part is unpleasant emotions are very important. You need them. So how are we helping employees deal with conflict? For example, my dear friend, Dr. My busker and I are releasing a model on how to help organizations deal with conflict because conflicts importance healthy But in our society, if we're going to want to try to get people to have more positive emotions, versus unpleasant emotions, we have to actually understand unpleasant emotions might be where the best ideas happen. New learning can happen. But we need to feel comfortable to deal with it. So to go back to what Emily said, if we, as leaders, can't develop relationships, or employees can't develop relationships, I'll talk about two minutes I'm calling my trusted leadership process and a minute is, at the end of the day, if we're going to succeed, employees who trust each other, are more likely to share, more likely to want to help, more likely to be able to coach each other. But that's going to require more energy. Because if you're turning over more people, that's not often in many people's job description, the importance of training other people. You know, you're used to train one every five years now, one a month, that's, that's getting tiresome for people. So that whole human piece, I'm convinced how people feel right now, employers that take and I'm working with a couple of very large employers right now in the CEOs get it, the employees charge and how they feel matters for their long term success. And that's really where I'm focused right now trying to simplify it, David, to try to get to emotions, and how the environment can play an important role. So there's all kinds of tactics we can talk about. But unless we start to create the habits, create space for be able to be vulnerable, and learn and grow and move away from this thing that are going to have to be always right or perfect, which is hard for some people

Emily Rodger  16:54  
tacit knowledge, like ta SSI en ta

Dr. Bill Howatt  16:58  
CIT tassa. Yeah, so in the world of knowledge management, you're 80% of your Institutional Intelligent walks out of the organization every day, and you hope it comes back the next day. So most organizations I walk into, and David seen me before, doesn't take me very long to figure out what the critical talent is. If you lose five, or six or seven of those really critical people walk out the door at the same time, your business could be at risk. And so what at the end of the day, businesses are very highly dependent. Many businesses are highly dependent on human relationships, and human knowledge. And that's really what I'm starting to see that employers need to get really good at. And this is why conclusions like driving fear out dealing with conflict, we'll talk a little bit of what I'm thinking about coaching, I'm starting to see it as a is a mission critical for leaders because of the volatility and how people are learning now. So there's all kinds of things but again, today, Emily's all about it to answer the question, it's really how do we help improve more interactions, even when I'm feeling on well, how to show up and be well on workplace

Emily Rodger  18:15  
events and the habits. And so habits within the workplace or individual habits are what were you referencing in that

Dr. Bill Howatt  18:24  
I'm a big proponent, Emily, that we often with employees, especially in workplace mental health, will, will sign them off to a core such and fix them or we'll send leaders to a workshop that'll fix them, we'll send out a new policy do this or will send the information without following through and correcting for the forgetting curve or teaching people how to learn. And so what basically what I'm trying to say, Emily is is that we do lots of communications, lots of knowledge transfer, lots of development of workshop, or sorry, employment and work in the workforce or by employers, but we may not be doing enough is making a clear distinction between the information we want to share and the so what and what are the key performance behaviors, the habits we want to develop? So let's use a real example. So if I was a manager, and Dave, it was a my direct report, for example. And my and I had a command and control approach. And I was really, really directive and I was Amal, I'm a finger pointer. Okay, and I'm like, my body language. I'm not aware that 90% of all my communication para verbals kinesthetics impact the employee experience or David so my body language doesn't tense so you're my coach. And you say to me, Hey, Bill, you know, if you stop pointing at David come on with them you know, like you're like, you know, like your like your this last something and your your nonverbals and your approach was a little bit more compassionate. You might might lower David saying xiety So he feels more comfortable. Who he gave me that information? Well, that and 25 cents won't get you a cup of coffee because we're so busy. We have a prior version called the default neural network. That human beings attention span is less than nine seconds, many folks, that's a goldfish is nine seconds. So many of us are actually impacted by information. But we don't have enough time. So habits means Emily and moves from here into my unconscious brain. Why learn how there's David, I learned my willpower is Don't point don't point don't point I'm having metacognition with myself. But when it becomes habitual, I'm engaging David with courtesy and respect, I'm not pointing now how long that will take an average will be about 66 days based on you know, James, clear research or other folks are up to 260 days. So the big mess and many organizations have great intentions. But they forget information is useless, unless it becomes habitual. So we can say that we want to have a caring workforce, we can say we want to have value. So we can say we want to be inclusive, we can say we can be psychological safe, we can spend millions of dollars on training people. But if we're not following through and being crystal clear, and measuring what are the behaviors that we want, and providing feedback, sadly, not much improves.

Dave Veale  21:44  
Your I've been going back and forth over the last few months. And it seems to me, Bill, that it's not like new, but maybe you know, you're seeing the opportunity, you know, really leveraging coaching in an organization as a way to support learning and development. So what, if anything has changed about that for you? Or what are you noticing now that might be different than what, you know, how is coaching showing up now in a way that maybe it didn't before?

Dr. Bill Howatt  22:10  
 Yeah, I think the biggest one for me, David is I think I was a really hyper focused on content. And I think training, I was really focused on content, and not the trainings not important. I think what I'd like now, the more I'm thinking about coaching is if I want folks to move from a command and control to a trusted leader, and I educate them on what's what I call the trusted leader bundle, I'll make sure you have it and you can give it to your youth, all your audience. It's a free tool I've created. And if we have folks understand, you know, what are the foundational behaviors? What are those five foundational behaviors that create a a trusted experience? What are the daily behaviors? What are the on demand behaviors, when we wouldn't have time to be a collaborator to make a decision or emotional regulation or just because I listened doesn't mean I'm going to agree like teaching very specific leadership behaviors. Where I see the coaching does three things. One, its built in accountability model. And what I mean by accountability, you know, it's like yourself, being someone who's trained in coaching, one of the things is helping people discover their own potential. The one of the things is simply ask them the question, Did you do what you said. And what happens is, many of us live in our heads. So the first thing is coaching helps people create the habit of getting out of their head. And from a behavioral economics perspective, most human beings live healthier in the future. And let me help you understand what I mean by this. Yeah, listen, I get this being nice to my employees or building report. But today, I gotta get some results. I'll go do that tomorrow. Yeah, I know, eating healthy is important. But today, I'm bit stressed all the pizza today, tomorrow will be green salad. Listen, I know, I need to get in better shape. But you know, Christmas coming lots of social but in January, I'll be on the treadmill. So we have lots of good intention about what we're going to do. Coaching helps you explain it to them now, and helps us be accountable with those behaviors to achieve what goal we want to be. So for example, if I go to use my coach Dave and said, You know what, I feel a little bit overwhelmed. Good. Coach goes cool. What's going on? That's it. And the person goes, Well, I think it was this. Okay, that's interesting. What do you try it? Well, I What do you think? I don't get paid to think I get paid to ask questions. So what do you think? And at the point, you move the person through a conversation where they realize there is no magic solution, I actually need to do something. And what a loss of human beings need coaching helps in number two, is to realize there is no shortcut. We have one thing we can deal with as ourselves and how I'm using it right now. and promoting it to our my clients as as there is so much happening to be a leader right now is, is only becoming more complicated. And as you become a leader creating space for the number three is is the third part is the conversations that happened in coaching. They can be skill development combo conversations, they actually can be problem solving conversations. Or they can be inquiry conversations of why am I doing what I'm doing? What's keeping me going? And what's filling my pump? And is this what I want. And if we can help people in leadership, be able to start to get in touch because for the work I want to do to put human into it 70% of the employee experience is going to be impacted by the manager employee relationship. The becoming a leader. In a world with inclusions. Many folks don't even know what it means yet. Neuro divergence, the changes in the law around the accountability and leaders. You look what's happening in the province of Nova Scotia, for example, September this year, in the province of Nova Scotia, and this year in September this year, workers comp is going to be moved move towards what's called gradual stress onset. What's that mean? Well, someone in the workplace has been harassed or bullied frequency, duration intensity, they could qualify for a worker's comp claim. Will you think in the amount of stress and amount of fear and the average workplace today and how many people don't feel comfortable raising their hand. And so what's happening is a lot of people don't raise their hand they're leaving, they're going quitting. They're going in sick time, or they're going in disability. The time David of having leaders who are able to actually enter a really complicated space to be able to help people my sense is I don't think there's a course in the planet earth to have all the answers for, for a leader. I think coaching provides leaders on a weekly basis to be focused on what behaviors I'm trying to improve. Why the heck am I keeping doing what I'm doing and what's filling my tank? And to be dealing with those ad hoc challenges and problems that come up inevitably, as a leader? Does that make any sense to you? 

Emily Rodger  27:25  
Yeah, and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Dr. Bill Howard comes on the boiling point cup, podcast time and time again. Just so brilliant. Yeah, with this thing around habits too. And that has me thinking about team building and team building exercises and team building activities. And maybe there needs to be just more team building habits established and what are our current habits and taking that time to actually on an individual basis be able to get to know what our habits are, within even our habits in interacting with one another.

Dr. Bill Howatt  28:03  
Yeah, you funny you say that, I did an analysis. And right now in my website, too, I'll send it to you too, as a free tool, we create it with employers that I give seven habits with peers can do with each other to support. And a part of the challenge is is that the things that drains and charges, employees batteries is their manager employee relationship, but also the peer to peer. The concept around team building is very, it's a fascinating construct. And before I can actually build big, develop a relationship with someone else, I need to develop relationship with myself. We don't talk about that in team building enough. We also don't calibrate the difference between introverts and extroverts, or cultural differences, or generational differences that are often is a bit of a misnomer. I find that some of the most dynamic teams I was with one the other day, they had 80 year olds all the way to 20 year olds, and it was the most creative team who was amazing watching how they were working together. They all want the same thing. They all want to feel valuable. They all want to feel that what their contribution matters. So they feel valuable, their contribution matters. And they feel safe and welcomed and belong, etc. So, so watching how all these dynamics work, but the thing that I'm watching Emily is that a lot of teams fail is because of constituents on the teams have never developed the micro skills to be able to learn how to interact. So I, for example, have a low emotional literacy. And because of it if I don't understand what a trauma informed land is lenses, and under stress, that activates my fight, flight freeze or fawn response, and I get into emotional dysregulation, and you're calm there's a chance you Something might learn behaviors could push you away and not bring you in. And so what happens is you have like, we're human beings, we learned very fast like, you burn your hand on a stove once you don't usually go back. So if I'm a vibe, bomb, a negative you kind of anchor while that Bill guy, he's a he's a load he's complicated to deal with. And so what happens is, is we start to judge people versus their behavior. That makes sense. So team building, in my humble opinion starts with by providing people with foundational behaviors. And the big one is learning how to take accountability for your own behavior, regulating your own behavior. So if I can actually get a toolkit to manage myself my interpersonal skills a little bit, then I can come and start building relationships, and learn how to do that. But here's the thing that we miss and teambuilding, Emily, zero being low 10, being high, the average Canadian or anybody of you know, around the world, in my opinion, from all the research I've done is not 10 out of 10, it's usually around five at a time. Fives don't want to be forced. So what happens is, there's a fear of being good enough for failure. So unconsciously, the only thing that when people feel a threat, their ego goes. So they, they react. So there's a lot of reactivity in workplaces, because individuals may never have been taught the skills, how to deal with some adversity without reacting to it. And then that kind of you know, you'll see like the Hatfields and McCoys like you interact with me once and well that Emily personally can't talk to her. And then I go tell David, all the bad things about Emily and there's a high probability you don't even know I'm upset by times to write. So that it's getting those foundational behaviors for employees, getting leadership behaviors, but more to go back to what David said to Team buildings a tactic coachings, a tactic, leadership development one day, half day, three days, that's a tactic. mental fitness, that's a tactic we have all these different tactics are all on their own valuable. However, the real question from a Plan Do Check Act, is us in leadership positions asking what's the sowhat? Meaning? What are what success look like? How are you going to Matt measure it? And what habits really are you're looking for? So what does a great leader look like? And because you have the competency skill, but what do you really want a great leader to look like? And for example, you'll often hear I want a great leader who's a good communicator? Well, lots of leaders think communications might be just telling people what they know,

Dave Veale  33:05  
The trusted leadership process or talking about what's going on there. What do you mean by that?

Dr. Bill Howatt  33:10  
The trusted leader is a framework, David, it's a user friendly tool that we've created, lots of my clients are now using it, and they're having great success with it. By the way, you know, we're seeing folks that their engagement scores here, year over year moved by 10 1214 points. So so what I'm learning is, is that by sitting down, and we do the following, here's, here's what a trusted leader bundle would look like, for example, the trusted leader bundle would look like, okay, he introduced the team to it and about 60 minutes, they get a little card, which you'll be able to see on my website. So little illustrator what the program is a little reading, they get to evaluate where they are as a command and control to trusted later. And then what they do is is that we introduce and we say to them, Hey, David, and it goes like this. So David, if you are my direct report, there's a high probability, for example, this is an example of a behavior that I would need to give you feedback. Would that be reasonable to you? And you'd probably say, yes, okay, great. So as a leader who has to give you feedback, who that's reasonable. How would you like me to give you feedback? And you might say, Well, anyway, you want bill? And I'll go no, that's not that's not what I asked, How would you like me to give you feedback? So some of your workers who are neurodivergent meaning there, they get stressed, overwhelmed by information, you might find that those folks are better off if you give them some bullets in writing. Then once I learn how you want to give feedback, this is where you flip the script as a psychological safe leader and I say, Dave, let's talk about how you're gonna give me feedback. And David goes well, I why What'd I do that? Well, because we have a role to protect each other. So how are you going to give me feedback? Let's talk about that. Okay. And then I said, David, is it possible that you and I might have to debate some points? Yeah. If we really care, do you think we're gonna agree all the time? No, I hope not. Because you wouldn't be very much used to maybe agreeing with me all the time. So how are we going to debate? And you might who I don't know. So let's talk about it. How do you how do I pick a debate with you? Let's talk about how you pick a debate to meet with me. Then we talk about correcting correcting is different than feedback, feedbacks of a something that's optional. Correcting is no, it's not optional. If you're hurting someone like implicit bias, you're you're causing someone's problem, or you're breaking rules, or whatever it may be. How do you how do you celebrate? If you're an introvert, you may not want to be acknowledged in front of the entire group. So we put in what are called the foundational behaviors and a habit where we practice it. And the role of a manager and employee and in groups where the span of control is not too big, and they have like a leadership like 810 direct reports at a maximum, it's easier to do. And then make sure that they develop these five foundational behaviors, and they practice them. And that's a part they always are talking about them. And then they practice their daily behaviors. And then they have their on demand behaviors. And every Friday they they meet up with what's called an accountability partner. And each week, they talk about what they learned, what's what they're going to get better at next week. And what's fascinating about it is is power of attention. It's just like coaching, it's countability, power retention, what you focus on, you'll get to keep on focusing on focusing and focusing helping to be moving out of that, you know, the uncomfortable zone a little bit challenging themselves to do a little bit more. And we do that over and over and over. And when do we stop we never do is with the idea of the program, it continues. Because you never there is never a time where you go, I'm a master of everything you need to do this with every employee you work with is a new new pad of paper to work with. Right? The and here's the thing about being a trusted leader, I got offered the other day, David for our global roll. Actually, in the last two months, I don't know what's going on, I got offered two global roles back didn't one was in New York, and one was in Chicago, big, big organizations. And they want me to take on one once maybe the chief mental health officer, the other one or maybe take over the CHR role. And I said no. He said why? So cuz I've realized something, here's the key. I've been fighting it for few years by me saying it. To be a leader, you need to have energy for people. And I like people, but I come to conclusion, I don't have as much energy for the unexpected as I used to. And to be a leader. Employees are can be inconvenient. They're human beings, they have opinions, and they have needs and etc. And they don't fall on a clock. If you want to lead and be successful. At a core you need to enjoy people. And to you need to have the energy. If you don't have the energy then will happen is you'll be short, grumpy. And you're not going to get the best out of yourself or other people. So I said no. Maybe I'll come around later. 

Dave Veale  38:33  
And you know, those constant conversations, it's almost like forced reflection, right? And it's something that doesn't seem to happen naturally, for whatever reason people don't kind of sit back and reflect on like, how am I doing? Like, how am I doing as it relates to this particular behavior, or how to have healthy conflict or whatever those topics are. So kind of forcing that conversation in a productive way can be really constructive in terms of how, you know, it does slow people down, and it has people reflect on where they're at and what they're doing, how they're doing it. And I think that's, you know, we're good habit creation can be born, right, because we just get new knowledge. And we have, you know, a contained conversation on that topic, and especially if it's, you know, done on a weekly or bi weekly basis. So, yeah, that's really interesting. So and people can find that on your website. 

Dr. Bill Howatt  39:23  
It's on our website, how would HR under resources on the web, the infographics are at the bottom, there's three bundles, one bundle on trusted one bundle for leaders and one bundle on daily be habits for mental fitness. Because there's a lot of folks don't know where to start. So this little starter kit has some videos and cetera. It's another it's a free resource for giving six daily behaviors to get you started to take care of your health. 

Emily Rodger  39:50  
I really appreciate what you've said Dr. Bell around having the energy to be a leader and to be in those positions and how much energy it does As take and the importance of having that self reflection time to see, like for myself, What habits? Am I doing this actually draining energy? Even? What way? am I responding to people? Or what way am I reacting versus responding, that's likely taking more energy, and being able to put up those healthy boundaries within ourself, because that is good leadership, you took a step of being an incredible leader by doing that.

Dr. Bill Howatt  40:31  
Well, here's something Emily, one of my wounds. David, you always asked me these really good questions. So what my big profound learning in 2024, I can summarize in a sentence is spending much more time looking at the difference between perception and perspective, perception is what we think to be true. And spending a lot of time trying to make it right. And debate it. Or perspective is as being open to the possibility that you have information, but you may not have all the information. And as I start to watch people really blossom, like watching people that, you know, I've had the privilege of thinking about one of my clients, actually one of my coaching clients, and David knows this, and, and I think some people are good at this, and some people are not good as I seen for my coaching practice over the years, you know, not taking a take on two or three very senior people a year, I normally get sent to me because they're, you know, vote ready to go out the door, have very, very high tacit knowledge very, very skilled, you're just a little bit of rough around the edges, you know what I'm trying to say? And so my personality, I do pretty good with people rough around the edges. So my skills is to deal with people that are kind of problematic by times, I guess, maybe takes one to know one, but I didn't have that kind of skill set with this population. Well, the one of the things that's been really, really cool, is watching somebody realize something this simple dissemble is they engaging in behaviors, with their direct reports that they wouldn't actually do the same behaviors with their peer or their CEO. And what really got a few of the clients that I've been working with really recently, is when they need when they are asked a good question around, you know, why is it they value their senior leadership more than they value their direct reports, because it's not a competency issue, it's a choice issue many times and get them to sit in that perception. That when people look at them from the perspective as they don't value, their direct reports, they're managing up and they only care about their own height. And when people can start to become mindful and what coaching I think does, in a way that creates space of you know, anonymity, confidentiality, you have some energy coaches can kind of feel what you know, it's now a good time for us to have this conversation. And you can pace it in the right way. I'm using it specifically in this context. If you want to create a psychological safe workplace, you'll never have Inclusion, Diversity, Equity, accessibility accommodation, without if you want to remove fear and drive accountability and drive learning. And you want to be able to do that among a group of employees, that they need to have a role model leader who creates space, and is okay to realize that everything's not going to be hunting and roses, and there's going to be stress and is not what's happening. That's the challenge and leadership is what we do. It's no, it's how we do it. So often leaders confused with what with the how. And if you can get leaders to pay attention of how they show up, or how employees show up. And to realize that one powerful thing I've learned about perspective is I'll often get my leader say let's hold our breath for a minute. And they'll go what this let's do this. And if you have a heart condition, let's skip it. But let's just try to hold our breath for a minute. And I said let's do it. I start to stop watch. We're just on this on the screen. And I go I'm gonna stare at them. And I and we go through it and they sometimes can and can't do and what that feels like a long time. Yeah. You know what, if you could save five of those one minutes a day for your employees, you realize how much good you could do. Because that will give save those five one minutes. A lot can happen in one minute. You're always going to be have a lot to do. You're always going to be in a rush. But if you can bank the energy to give people space A lot can happen in one minute for a person to feel valued or hurt, and have coaches that can get people to change their perception. To can change their perspective can help remove fear, where it's okay for people to say I don't feel comfortable. I like and what happens with many times it also for leaders to say, well, I don't feel comfortable with those behaviors either. So I can get that ying and the yang. So that's what I'm trying to do more. And that's really David, one of the reasons with coaching, you know, with our, with my clients now, with Spencer and a couple of other folks. I'm actively talking more now about coaching, not that I never really didn't see value in it. But I'm seeing it as a way to scale trusted leadership. Here's the toolkit, go get a coach and go practice now for the next couple of years. If you do it for a couple of years, you could be really good at this if you want to be. I mean, like it only takes you used to be a phys ed person, David, how long does it take to lose 30 pounds? Oh, about a year? Do it right? How long does it take to actually get to the point where people feel comfortable with you and believe you're an authentic leader? Oh, about a year? There's no shortcuts? That's what I'm learning?  

Emily Rodger  46:15  
Well, I guess it's the golden rule of treat others as you want to be treated or do unto ot  hers, whatever that is, I want

Dr. Bill Howatt  46:21  
That's a golden rule. Let's move the platinum rule. Do unto others as they would want to be done on to them.

Emily Rodger  46:29  
100% Yep, that's what I was getting at of how it is because I hear it so often from people love. Well, this is how I would want to be treated, or I'm just treating them what I would want. And it's like, okay, why is it why is there so many eyes in that sentence? Yeah, Dr. Bill, as always, this has been phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time. This is a podcast and episode that I will definitely I mean, I really listened to all of them, because there's so much goodness in them. But I feel like this is one that I and listeners could listen to about 10 times over and still be gaining knowledge from so thank you so much for for coming on here. 

Dave Veale  47:12  
And just before we do our extra here, I know we're at the top of the hour here. But I just do want to comment on Bill's energy. He has a remarkable amount of energy. And I and my best story are one of many stories, but the one I'll be allowed to share when I call them on a Sunday. And I'm just trying to get over the week and relax. And I said what are you doing as well. I'm working on procrastination scale, because I realized I don't have a point of or I have a point of view, but I haven't really tested it yet. And I'm thinking, Man, I feel lazy right now. So a man has a ton of energy. And I think you're very good point, Emily. We had her listen to again, there's a lot a lot of information packed into it. And thanks, Bill for coming on. So nice to see you, buddy.

Dr. Bill Howatt  47:55  
Take care everybody.

Emily Rodger  47:56  
So we will list all of Dr bills, information and any extras we discussed in the show notes and the best place to find that is on our website. We're active on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter and the video version is going to be available on YouTube and Facebook. And of course the podcast is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms. Day Dave, always a pleasure

Dave Veale  48:21  
seeing you Take care. Bye.

Emily Rodger  48:23  
Thank you for listening, follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app or visit boiling point podcast.com For more