Kelley Russell-DuVarney: Exploring Sociological Imagination

Emily Rodger  0:00  
Hi, I'm Emily Rodger host of the Boiling Point podcast. My co-host, Dave Veale, and I will bring you thoughtful discussions with leaders who are positively impacting our world. This is the Boiling Point, where leadership and inspiration meet. Dave, you and I kind of had a deja vu moment the other day, didn't we?

Dave Veale  0:20  
Yeah, I was driving a section of highway that I drove a couple years earlier. And I had this need to call you. And it was probably the section- it was just into Quebec, just across New Brunswick border. This time I was on my way to Montreal, it was the weirdest thing. I phoned, because we have a project we're going to be working on together. And you picked up, which was cool. You were on a bit of a high because you had just did a presentation to high school group? Was that right? Or Middle School?

Emily Rodger  0:48  
Actually would have been elementary, a grade five class. Spoke to them. Yeah.

Dave Veale  0:52  
Yeah, and you just seem like on another level, and you were just- sounded like really connected with the kids. And they connected with the topic. And then I think I saw a post that you put out, and I'm guessing it was related to the same presentation. It

Emily Rodger  1:06  
It was, yes, I got invited to speak to- so the province has been putting on a Wildlife Wednesday initiative. So about a month ago, I spoke virtually to a bunch of classrooms across the province on fly fishing, but then I also tied in leadership and how it's important for us to have passions and interests and like what we learn about that, and this concept of who we are versus what we are. And so I ran into a lady actually in Chapters, and she had said- she was a teacher and said, Oh, my class, we didn't get to partake in it. And I'm so sad we missed it. And I said, well, why don't I come in and do it in person? So I went and did it in person. And I love being able to do it in person for these talks. And it was so wonderful. The highlight of it was that at the beginning, I was sharing around, it's just kind of normalizing feelings. It's this feeling of even me walking into an elementary school, I had this like- these flashbacks of how I felt in elementary school. And this was this not only fear of public speaking, but fear of speaking, so much to the point that my teacher had me in speech therapy because I would not speak, and she was convinced that I just couldn't. Where my mom's like, no, Emily does not have a problem, like trust me. But even in just sharing that story with the kids right from the beginning. And then speaking about that it's okay to have these feelings and normalizing those. And at one point, the little girl, one of the little girls, she raised her- or I said, Why do you think I'm sharing this story? And she made this comment about how because it's normal to feel this way. And it's normal to have emotions, but now you're teaching us what to do with them. And I was like, oh my gosh, yes. Like these kids, like, they just absorbed so much stuff. It was- and I mean, I got from it, probably more than they did. Like it was just such a beautiful time. And yeah, this thing around, like, as leadership coaches that we really need to be implementing this in the younger generation as well. So yeah, it was a beautiful time. But however, back to that deja vu drive, you were on your way for a guys weekend?

Dave Veale  3:25  
Yeah I was- I was getting away. I was actually- I had chosen to drive to Montreal. So I was about- And I didn't realize this, but it's like an eight hour drive, with my son. So he could drive part of it. I could drive part of it. You know, so good windshield time together. When he's driving, there's no devices, right? So it's like I can- you know, I've kind of got him locked into a conversation. Anyways, it was great. I'm glad we did it. We met my brother and my nephew. So it was kind of a boy's weekend away. And I gotta admit, I got up Sunday, and I was like, man, we have eight hours to drive back. So I said, Liam, you're going to drive part of the way back, too, he said no problem. So we get all the way back to Edmundston. Right, which is just across the New Brunswick border from Quebec. And I said, your turn to drive, he starts driving, and the snow just starts coming down. And talk about like, what do you do? Do you just- you know, like, he's 17 he hasn't been driving for a year yet. Or has it been a year? Yeah, like maybe roughly a year. And I'll tell you, I was nervous, especially when going by two transport trucks and we're right in the middle. And then you can't see the road. It was one of those kinds of snow falls. To his credit, you know, was able to navigate it okay. We didn't crash, thankfully, and I said, you know, I don't know if it's fair for you to be driving in this kind of weather at this stage. So anyways, he drove all of half an hour, I drove the rest, but what a rough- you know, like, we had music trivia, we had movie trivia. It was a really good time. It was a really good time. And the game was fun. And Montreal was fun, and did some things I wouldn't typically do. So it was a nice weekend away.

Emily Rodger  4:59  
Nice. Nice, love that what a great opportunity for Liam to gain experience in driving in those conditions with you right there with him.

Dave Veale  5:09  
That was an interesting thing, because that's- because I said, you know, like, I don't know, I was just like, wait, it was one of those one- situations where you're like, you know, the transport trucks are blowing snow. You know, if you were on the left lane, you can't really see where you're at, you're in between two, like, he just couldn't, he couldn't be in a worse place really. He said, Well, I got- I gotta learn how to drive in these conditions at some point. But I was thinking, yeah, but not when it's dark, Sunday night. Like, I just don't know. It was more about me. It was just not- It was not- I was not enjoying it. So. But you're right, you know- you know, how do we learn how to do that? By exposure by doing it, all that kind of stuff. So anyhow, he'll be off to university, have a lot of chances to drive to that weather. Weather is different now too, right? And- and our guest we're going to introduce is talking about, you know, minus seven in Austin, Texas, like, the world is changing in crazy ways. Kind of scary ways, actually. 

Emily Rodger  6:05  
Yeah, yeah. And so speaking about our next guest, we have Kelley Russell DuVarney on the show today. Kelley is a certified positive psychology coach, who both coaches and facilitates training for emerging leaders, teams and C-suite executives. Her background in sociology allows her to bring a unique perspective to coaching culturally diverse clients, helping them gain clarity, support, skills and influence to achieve their goals and address complex organizational challenges. Notably, Kelley has contributed to the field through her published organizational white paper titled, An Authoritative Report on Leadership Coaching in Nonprofits. Kelley, welcome to the Boiling Point.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  6:51  
Thanks, Emily. Thanks, Dave. Wonderful to be here. 

Dave Veale  6:54  
Nice having you here. 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  6:55  
And yes, minus seven. Minus seven in Austin, Texas with a little bit of snow on the ground.

Dave Veale  7:01  
Like when's the last time that's happened?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  7:04  
It happens twice a year, maybe most, I just don't know that we knew it was gonna happen today. So it was a good surprise this morning. And I'm a former New Englander. I was born and raised in Massachusetts. So you know, I'm not afraid of the snow, I kind of enjoy that little bit of snow on the ground, but minus seven, I could do without it.

Emily Rodger  7:26  
And I think there's certain areas where it's just not supposed to be that temperature. Which makes it even worse. There was- gosh, this is probably like 12 years ago now, my only time in Austin, Texas. I was at a triathlon training camp there and was so excited to go to the warmth. And it was one of those cold spells. 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  7:45  
Aw, I'm so sorry. 

Emily Rodger  7:47  
And everyone was like, you're Canadian, you should be used to it. And I'm like, now you've don't get used to it. And there's a reason right now I'm not in Canada.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  7:57  
Fair. Fair, traveled a couple thousand miles to be warm and not get that reward. 

Emily Rodger  8:04  
Yes. So Dave, Kelley and I were first introduced by Marilyn, Marilyn Orr, for our listeners, a other executive coach. And- and Marilyn had said, you and Kelly need to connect. And so Kelley and I connected. And at the end of the conversation, which could have gone on forever, I said, I would love to have you on the Boiling Point to discuss everything that we are talking about right now so all the listeners can hear it. So that is how Kelley and I initially connected. 

Dave Veale  8:37  
Marilyn is- is the ultimate connector. And so- and I've heard your name many times. And we've spoken before, Kelley. So- yeah, but we haven't seen each other, so- and Marilyn spent some time in Austin and now she's in Maine. So she's kind of experiencing the minus seven weather. But in Maine. And speaking of Austin, I just- I had one trip there. I loved it. And I had fabulous weather. It was on the lakes and it was just- it was so amazing. But for me what was really interesting was I was like, is this Texas? Like it didn't feel like Texas. Like, in what- my head, what Texas is, right?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  9:10  
Yeah, I mean, I moved here more than 20 years ago from Massachusetts. And I remember saying to people moving to Austin, Texas, and they were like, why? Why would you do that? Like, where are you going? I- that seems very random. And they're- you know, it just wasn't a known city in the way that it is now. And now I get on planes and travel internationally. And the person sitting next to me will say where are you from? And I'll say Austin, Texas, and they'll say oh, it's on my- it's on my top five list. It's on my top 10 list, and I'm like, how did that actually happen? Like how did we go from a place nobody's been to that no one knew, to being like a happening place? 

Dave Veale  9:46  
You went there before it became this like major destination for everyone to be. Yeah,

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  9:51  
Yeah, yeah. Tech hub, and- mhm. 

Dave Veale  9:54  
What took you there? 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  9:55  
Technology. So my husband and I both started in tech. My husband continues to work in tech. And he had an opportunity actually had two opportunities had one to go to the Silicon Valley in California, and we had an opportunity to come to Austin and didn't know really a lot about either of them. We were a young couple had a couple of young kids, and spent some time in both areas. And California was hustling and bustling, lots to see and do. But we were like, as a young family, it was a lot and came to Austin, it was kind of like the best of both worlds, it was kind of like a small town, in the shape of a big city, right, we had a symphony, we had a ballet, but you could get downtown in 10 minutes, and there was no traffic. And it was sunny and warm in the winter, right. So there were lots of pluses, and we- we dove in.

Dave Veale  10:47  
And everyone followed. 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  10:48  
And everyone followed. So if we could only have found the door to close it behind us, that would have been lovely.

Emily Rodger  10:55  
So speaking of diving in, Kelley, what got you into the coaching world?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  11:01  
It feels so random looking back, but I had actually applied kind of thinking about the last chapter, professional chapter of my life, my kids were in high school getting ready to go to college. And I had applied to several PhD programs. And I thought, you know, I think that's what I'll do last, like, I think I'll go get a PhD, and maybe I'll teach and, you know, do that on a part time basis, really give back and have impact. And I was having lunch with a colleague here in Austin, that I hadn't seen in about a decade. And they were like, oh, gosh, you're you're gonna go to a Ph. D. program, you're gonna do all of that time. Like, what? What's behind that, and I was like, impact, like, education had such impact in my life, obviously lives of people around me, like, I'd love to have that kind of impact in other people's lives. And she asked one question, she said, Isn't there anything you could do? Right now, that might have as much impact? And I just, it's spun me around like I, I didn't know what to do with the question. You know, I kind of thought while I'm a fairly smart person, I feel like if there was something I would have thought of it. And so that was a January, I had to actually make a decision on the PhD programs I had been invited to join by like April or May. So I had like three months to really like somehow noodle on this question she she threw out. And during that time, someone said to me, there's a new executive leadership programs starting at the university supporting the MBA plus executive program, would you be interested in giving it a shot and kind of coming in and doing some work with us and deferring your PhD? And I said, yes. And the rest is history.

Emily Rodger  12:45  
Wow. Talk about that one changing question. Was she a coach, this woman who asked you that? 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  12:52  
She was a coach. 

Emily Rodger  12:53  
Yeah, I'm like, wow, what a coach-like question, first of all, and just how much those questions can just make a change.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  13:05  
Yeah, important changes. And I think that you know that it's an important question when you feel befuddled, right? When someone lands it, and you think, I haven't thought that thought before. Right? And so, yeah, I think it was a real huge change. Now, does that mean I'll never do a PhD program? I don't know that that's actually true. But do I think that she was right, that there was impact to be had sooner? Absolutely.

Dave Veale  13:31  
Well, the other thing about powerful questions, it stays with you, right? 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  13:34  
It's haunting. 

Dave Veale  13:35  
This many years later, you're remembering that question, and I think probably all three of us can remember points in time where someone just posed the question, which just stuck with you. And it actually changed the trajectory of your life, right? Which is such an amazing thing about coaching, I find.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  13:52  
Yeah. And if you think about how- I don't know if you think- I don't know if you can imagine how much time it takes to fill out, like, applications for PhD programs, but it's just- it's a boatload of work. Right? And you're doing tests, and so I just spent a boatload of time, had come to a conclusion that was all somewhat a raised in a lunching question, right, that you're like, how did I- how was I going so quickly down this route, and just took a detour that now, a decade later, right? Here I am with my own business and doing this full time. 

Emily Rodger  14:25  
And so your background in sociology is what really intrigued me to have you on the podcast, and in speaking around culturally diverse clients. And actually, when you and I were chatting, I was just getting ready, I think, to go to Bolivia and talking about these culturally diverse places and you had so much insight on that. What in that kind of- like just talking about, like, impact, how did you really see that you could have an impact in that area?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  14:56  
So I think my background, obviously my education and background, I have two degrees in sociology, so a bachelor's and a master's degree in sociology. And I think that there's just a way to think about the world that's introduced in that field that was different than anything else that I had experienced that gave me insight to myself. And I think that insight was helpful for me to bring into my coaching. And that is this idea of a sociological imagination. It's being able to consider the structure, if you want to say the structure, part of society that helps us to advance towards our goals or wants or desires that are actually happening right alongside that agency piece, but aren't as readily visible to us. So that's education systems, right? Economic systems, political systems, legal systems, family systems, right. They're all part of the cogs, if you will, of advancement, that allow us to make progress. And I think that bringing that lens into coaching, really allows me to ask questions that are outside of the framework of the engagement, right? Yeah, you're an executive, you work in the sector, for this organization and this role, but all these other things are at play at the same time. And so to really use that sociological imagination to imagine what they might be, and therefore to ask questions about them.

Dave Veale  16:30  
Do you have an example, maybe, that you could apply to this, just to help someone listening that may be new to coaching or has an understanding of coaching, but, you know, how the sociological perspective would impact coaching?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  16:44  
This is going to be the hard part. The hard part is to keep me short. I'm going to try to keep myself short, and not be so passionate and exciting. 

Emily Rodger  16:53  
We can just mute you, Kelley.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  16:55  
We're just going on- Yeah. So mute me, Emily, agree to mute me if it goes too long. So, you know, I was thinking about this question, actually, after Emily and I got together because she's one of the first people to be really curious about that. And we were talking again, she was traveling, I had done a little bit of research outside of the United States, for my master's degree, and we were talking about those experiences. But it got me to thinking about my own current clients. And so if I kind of walk you through some of my thinking about it, and how this sociological imagination gets applied. So one of my clients was born in Asia, and then emigrated as a young girl to the United States. When she showed up as one of my clients, one of the things that we talked about a great deal was confidence and assertiveness, right? Things that she wanted more of that she thought would advance her professional role. She wanted some to actually have an experience of leadership, she thought she wanted to do some leadership in the future. And she was probably at this point around 30, early 30s. When someone presents like that, we have to make a choice, right? One is we think about it from the agentic side, right? That is all agency, right? Then we're actually talking about emotional intelligence, we're talking about skills, right? We're talking about like, Oh, you, you're more on this empathetic, collective collaborative side, let's grow you in this direction. Right? That's, that's one line of questioning. But the other lines of questioning that might be present for this person, are some of the like, I'm going to call them you know, immigrant myths, which is like, I just have to work hard do my time. Right? In order to advance right I've changed cultures I've moved from here to there. And the way that you know any group of people that emigrate make progress is just put your head down, you know, don't stand out drive ahead. And sometimes in that is is warping effective meritocracy, right? We have this idea that all systems American meritocratic, right, this idea that, like, my input gets me a like reward. Not necessarily true in most organizations. So that's another lens to think about it. I could have thought about it from a gender lens, right, I could have thought about it from a generational lens, what's happening in this person's life generationally, that they're coming to the conclusion that this is how to go about acting in the world in order to reach their goals. How is it as a female in this organization or in this sector or she worked in tech in the tech sector? How does that sector influence her choices and her decisions right on the actions to take in order to to reach your goal and it sounds lengthy Lee in the in the explanation of it. But this happens really, really quickly once you kind of start to use it the sociological Have you just get different lines of questioning than you were if your belief system was, oh, well, clearly, what I need to do is upskill this person in confidence and assertiveness, right? Which- which could be an overly simplistic assessment or line of questioning that may not get the same results.

Dave Veale  20:17  
So just to carry that forward with- with this particular client, like, so, what showed up there that may have been, you know, unique to that situation?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  20:27  
I think it's really empowering, right? It's really, it was empowering for me, like sitting in, in undergrad classes and grad classes to recognize like, there was a lot more happening outside of my self. Right? I didn't have a lot of control over. But I might be able to get a strategy around, right? Whether it's expanding networks or such, right? Oh, I recognize because of where I was educated, I may not have the same set of networks, as somebody that was educated at a different institution, right. And so then I can close the gap because I can understand, oh, well, that might be a difference of network, I can have a strategy for that. I think this was the same for this client. Right? It was really asking questions about who she was, right? How would it be for you, as an individual, like your sense of values and integrity to show up more assertively and less collaboratively? Like, how would that impact you? Right? Asking those subset of questions gives back someone like, oh, some information about other things that are happening inside of me, rather than, I'm lacking something that I need to go gain. 

Emily Rodger  21:44  
Yeah, I really appreciate that, and you sharing that, Kelley. Do you remember, for this particular client, like I'm curious as to what part of herself- and even culturally, she stepped into, that she was able to bring forth into not just the position that she was working in, but in her life?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  22:05  
Great question. Well, because it's tricky, right? I mean, this is the warning that should come with every coaching engagement, right? I mean, I- I usually say at my Discovery sessions with new clients, I'm like, warning, even positive change has negative effects. Right? Right? You change one thing in the system, even if that system is your family or your partner. Right? And inevitably, that's changed for them, too. So yeah, you're completely right, right? How do I- if I learned this skill here, how does that translate when I go back to be with my family? How does that translate when I go back to be with my partner? Right? Do I need separate scripts for who I'm going to be? How do I actually pull a thread through all of those pieces that aren't me that are authentically me, right? So that it doesn't cause me to have more loss than gain. And I think for this client, gosh, A+ for like persistence, determination, tenacity, to keep showing up to really hard conversations, to go away and do the footwork to understand for herself, how much to turn that dial, right? Like if I'm- if we're going to say- and this is obviously simplistic, but if we're going to put empathy and assertiveness, just to choose two, onto a dial, how do I dial that in a way where I stay true to myself, advance my own goals, right, and yet not cut myself off from the people that I love the most that know me in a different way? 

Emily Rodger  23:36  
This is just kind of making me think of a recent conversation with a- that I had with someone- it was with a guide, a fly fishing guide, actually in Belize, and just around this- this- like these cultural differences, in- I was fishing with him, and I could not hear what he was saying. And I was like, you gotta speak up, I can't hear you. And he wouldn't speak up, wouldn't speak up. And then finally, when we were off of the boat, I said, listen, like, I cannot hear you. And he was like, but if I speak any louder, I'm yelling at you, and that's no way to treat a woman. And I was like, okay, like I respect that, however... And then so it's like, okay, how can we kind of, you know, find that sweet spot that- it's not yelling, I just needed to hear you.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  24:22  
But wasn't that great information for you to understand his- I mean, I think that we're in the job of supporting people thinking about their thinking. I think that's- right, that's a coach's role, right? I'm gonna support you to think about your own thinking. And so that person introduced data that was, again, let's go back to sociological imagination that you couldn't actually detect. From him speaking softly. You couldn't have to actually put together what was happening right. There was a system of respect happening, right. There was a system of gender happening. There was a lot happening in that decision. To speak softly, that then was decoded when right he brought forward that information. And I do think that that's the brilliance because now we can solve for that we can solve for like, who are you? And what are you attempting to do? Who am I and what am I attempting? Where's the middle between us so that we can meet it?

Dave Veale  25:17  
I'm thinking of a client we're working with, it's- it's part of a health- healthcare system in the United States, they specialize in a particular type of surgery. And what's interesting is our surgeons come from all over the world. And now that I'm- as we're talking about this, I'm just thinking, it's so interesting, because the coaching opportunities that are coming up, are so connected to the culture they're coming from. That they've identified, like, as an example, like, when a surgeon is coming in, and, you know, very formal, everything's formal, but, you know- and would say, this is- this is the culture I come from, and this is how you address people, you know, that are, you know, kind of formal leaders, where it's- it's not really culturally appropriate within that organization. I just think of some of the challenges navigating that. And then, you know, some others, you know, that would be coming from a completely different culture, maybe much more expressive, and- and not as buttoned down, but that's causing other issues, you know what I mean? Like, it's- it's fascinating, but I've never really- actually until you're talking about now, it's part and parcel with the opportunity to support them. But just thinking the underpinning of the work you do is so important to this, right? And- but- and- and also gives us so much more information. And you talk about like metacognition, or thinking about thinking, it's so- that's the beauty of- beautiful part of- and then maybe someone listening to this is going, what are these guys talking about? But that's that- like that whole- you talk about the discovery piece, I find that one of the most fascinating points of intersection with a client or a coachee, is when you get to learn kind of lessons learned by this per- and what they decide to bring in to the con- you know, and to share with you. So you're learning about, you know, the whole person, not just the person who has this particular title. But inevitably, I find, Kelley, that they'll- they'll- that cultural awareness will- will seep into the- the discovery session when someone feels, you know, psychologically safe.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  27:23  
I mean, that's spot on, right, you know, being safe. Right? Can I express myself? I also work in healthcare and the United States, have for the past five years, and one of the largest health care institutions in Texas. And yes, that international- there's so many good questions in there, right? And it's- again, I think it's really empowering to the- to the client, right, for you to kind of partner and come up a side them in that journey. I'm thinking about a surgeon that I had, as a client a few years ago, who had got just consistently was getting done on their feedback forms within an institution as being kind of shut down emotionally or cold. And the morning that we met, face to face in person, probably four years ago, maybe just prior to COVID. And he and I sitting in very small room, kind of like pretty close proximity to one another. And he had been, like, raised in the Middle East, and then he had gone to medical school in the UK. And then he had, you know, taken a job in the United States, right? That's a lot of transition to not only have to process but to actually integrate, right? And so what's up with this feedback, you're getting, like, what's happening here. And it was just, it was such a beautiful exchange, where he said, you know, where I grew up, like, men express their emotions, like, fully, like, we were allowed to cry, like when we were sad, and you know, grieve like loss. And, you know, that happened real time. And he said, but then I went off to med school, and then I took a job in the States, and I recognized like, oh, like, men do masculinity different here. And if I do it like this, I'm an outsider. So I actually am trying to mirror or match what others are doing in order to be accepted. So that I can be an insider, right? And you're like, oh, my gosh, right? What great work he and I were able to do because I was able to acknowledge the reality? That wasn't in him as a person, right? There wasn't an- it wasn't tied to who he was. It was tied to his experience of these different places and these different social settings, and organizational settings, and what they were demanding of him, and his ability to try to translate that real time in order to, I don't know, check the box, right, and he was doing it poorly and wanted to do it better. And that was the work that he and I engaged in. What- but what a beautiful- like, what a beautiful moment that couldn't have happened without psychological safety and confidentiality and like the partnership and awareness of a coach that sits in front of you and says, yeah, I- I hear that.

Emily Rodger  30:14  
Yeah, definitely, I've experienced that a lot. And keeping on that, the healthcare topic of that reminds me of a client who is an oncologist and female, and she was speaking around how she felt, kind of during her- she was like tr- medical school- she was now kind of having these revelations of how, like, almost traumatized she had become, in needing to let go of parts of herself in order to be in this position where she felt like she always kind of needed to prove each prove herself. And- and, you know, in speaking around, like, just who she is at the core, and what her values are, and then almost that needing to kind of undo some of these ways that we feel like we need to condition ourselves, which, in many ways, is just based on fear, and this wanting to belong, and just how deeply rooted those things are, which is why it's so important for- I think, as coaches to really get to know each other at that personal level, but providing that space for the client to be able to get to know themselves.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  31:23  
Yeah, beautifully said, and that belonging piece, right? I mean, I- again, I do think- I remember sitting in those early undergraduate classes, and like just thinking about myself differently, right, let me- let's- let's think about society through the lens of gender, you know, let's think of society through the lens of class, let's think of righteous- and you're just literally putting on the cap, right, to be able to really tune in, into like, what are all of these cogs that are actually happening in the background of our lives? But we can't- it's really hard to bring them forward to be able to see the part that they play, again, in either advancing or sometimes preventing or forward progress. But being in those conversations sometimes allows us as good practitioners to help the client bridge the gap.

Dave Veale  32:20  
That just kind of leads, you know, so beautifully- there's something I was thinking about as- I'd be curious about your perspective, Kelley, like- so for someone listening was- and- and is sitting back and thinking, you know, I'd like to do some of this deeper work. Maybe they're not prepared to hire a coach, or- at this stage for whatever reason. But you know, do you have anything you'd recommend in terms of helping kind of uncover, you know, many of these things that we all carry around and maybe haven't thought it through? Or haven't fully thought it through? Any recommendations around them?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  32:50  
First of all, like, aren't we fortunate in many ways- we don't always talk about how fortunate we are to live in 2024. In a world where we're technically, right, so advanced, that you can actually Google and access, gosh, so many courses online, right, that are like sociology 101, for free, right? Whether it's Coursera, whether it's going to you know, some of the MIT open classware or coursework, lots of things online, that we can now just take in right in small amounts, in order to have a better understanding of ourselves. So I'm going to say not only just for our clients, I think for coaches, like, I continue to kind of get up get up in off my soapbox to be able to say like, why doesn't every coach training have a sociological component? Right, where we're really trying to stretch our thinking about individuals and us collectively and us globally, right, in these types of ways. But I think these are great ways to do it. I think you can access videos, I think you can access books now, that really are in this early stage of sociology, some of the sociologists that I love whose writings you can find everywhere that are early sociologies- sociologists, are- like Giddens is one of them. Giddens, writes a lot about this. You've got the concept of dramaturgy in there, front stage and backstage personas, you can get lots of videos on those. But we're really rich now, as a society, in order to get in and just take a little bit of this to have a better understanding of ourselves and others.

Emily Rodger  34:38  
For you, being able to work with so many culturally diverse clients, do you find yourself kind of in this thought process of like, what from other cultures do you want to kind of take and integrate into yourself? Like, do you find you changing within that?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  34:58  
Gosh, I hope so. Right? I mean, I think that was one of the promises of coaching. I don't know what training the two of you went through for coach training, but the promise of Coach Training was to change yourself, right? You should be changing right alongside of your client, you should be growing and developing right alongside your clients. So yes, absolutely. My clients are teaching me all the time if I allow them, the space to do that. And sometimes that's just through the tool of silence. Knowing when to speak and when not to speak, asking, I asked my clients a lot of questions, especially clients whose genders are different than mine, whose ethnicities are different than mine nationalities are different than mine. I'm always asking them sharing an observation and then saying, Is that how it sounds or feels for you? Does it? Is that how you're experiencing yourself or experiencing the situation? In order for them to see back to me? They're teaching me all the time about what I didn't know, right? Before we had a conversation. So yes, I think that that's never ending. And I do think that again, that this gets back to where are we post COVID, and a time where we have record, right reporting and surveys of loneliness, and the sense of disconnection, right, this ability of ours to share and learn and be in the fray with one another in order to be more connected. I think we've got some great traction here post-COVID, not only as as a society, but I think within organizations, and I think leaders should take the reins here. 

Emily Rodger  36:38  
You segue'd beautifully into somewhere I wanted to take you, in the sense that you are a phenomenal communicator and bringing people together for connection. And I noticed that- I mean, when you and I first- first started speaking that like- it being psychologically safe, I have the complete honor of going to a workshop that you and Marilyn put on around connection. And how do you find, like yeah, in this post COVID world, and such a virtual world now, around- how can we continue to connect even more? And even that, of like- are we even aware that we're experiencing feelings of loneliness? 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  37:30  
Well, the reporting would say that we are, I think maybe the question is, are we tracking well with ourselves about it? Right? And maybe even the net negative consequence, right, for an individual or an organization, a team or a society a family? Right? That that disconnect feels, or experiences? I think that maybe we're less good at that. Right? We can kind of forget ourselves. I do think that connection in the last few decades, moved at like level two or three. And you know, Maslow's thinking about hierarchy of needs, actually moved down to a basic need. Somewhere in the early 2000s, mid 2000s, it was advanced as a primary need. I think many of us don't know that about ourselves that we have a primary need for connection that is not different than our need for safety and security, and like food, and water and nourishment, all of those things. I think it sits right alongside. So I think bring that awareness forward. It's really, really important for individuals to know that they need to feed themselves in this way. I think pre COVID- and this is just a sense that I have of my own experience of the world- I think pre COVID our structures supported greater connection, to your point, right, once we- so many of us went remote, right, there was an automatic disconnect, because the structure changed. And so that's a great question. How do we put connection back in, in a- in a world that is working remotely? Or in a hybrid manner? How do we keep connection? And I don't know that we know that 100%, but I do think there's a really good amount of research about this, because, you know, it was the 1990s when some of the silicon companies actually went remote fully. And in going remote, they started to track like what worked and what didn't work. But what we know, we know that having teams and organizations and leaders meet one on one still even if it's remotely just have conversation, not about an agenda, not about the goals, not about the right not about the budget, right just to talk one On one as people what's going on with you? How are you? How was your family? What have you been up to? How was your trip? How was your drive with your son, right? All of these things, bringing them in and making them important, those were conversations that were the fabric of trust and psychological safety and connection for most of us. And they didn't often take place in a meeting, they often took place in the parking lot, or on the stairs or in the elevator, right? So I do think bringing it to the foreground is what I would say like, let's bring it to the foreground. And let's make belonging, part of the future. Let's, you know, we love competence, we love autonomy, those seem, you know, pretty efficient mechanisms to increase productivity in organizations, I would love to see us dive full throttle into like belonging, let's- let's see how that advances, not only organizations' bottom lines, but society and community. 

Dave Veale  40:52  
I'm thinking of the work we do with teams at times, and just how impactful it can be to- as you're facilitating this work, is to slow people down. And you know, have them, you know, do a partner exercise where they just ask each other questions about nothing to do with work just about, you know, you know, who their teammate is, you know, one little known fact, like, just- you know, the silly questions we'd ask, but- you know, and then introduce your partner to everyone else. And it's inevitably, I mean, people work together for sometimes decades, and they'll go, just, I never knew that about you. And for what- I don't know what it is about the human experience, but when you get in a work setting, a lot of work settings aren't conducive to having the- or don't maybe naturally bring those forward. So I agree, I think it's just, the idea of belonging would be so impactful. If that was like, you know, a core value of an organization. Think of what that does for retention. And oh, man, I mean- and well, as I'm thinking it through, I'm like, well how many times have I- have I actually talked to folks on the roster about- I- it probably happens, but maybe I could be more deliberate about it, right?

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  42:00  
I just want to say, Dave, like, I think that's a really important point, right? You said, I don't know why it doesn't happen. And I think if I was going to step into the shoes of a sociologist, like it's because that's how work has been structured. Right? In the past, in the past, we like there was a part of what you left at home, there was a part of us who left outside the office, right? Emotions didn't have a place in the office, right? All of these taboos that we were kind of raised through structures of education, and family and mental, right, we're being taught right how to be in the workplace. But we get to decide to your point, like how empowering, then an organization could say, You know what, we're gonna just go full throttle into belonging. Let's see, let's see what we get from that. You can change that structure, just by making one thing more important than the rest, and then measuring it, which I'm a huge fan, like, Let's do metrics on it, let's, yeah, and let's follow the research, brilliant research out there. And, you know, Emily got to sit in some of this with the full day workshop that Marilyn and I offered on connection, which is, there are some brilliant thinkers who have been thinking about these things for a really long time. And we know what those things are. So we can actually do them more skillfully, either as facilitators, trainers, coaches, or leaders.

Emily Rodger  43:25  
I'm gonna share, Kelley, one of- a big takeaway that I had from that workshop that I went on. 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  43:31  
Oh, yes. I'm excited to hear.

Emily Rodger  43:33  
It was timed so perfectly, because it was right before, like a few days before I left to go to Africa, and was gone there for a little over five weeks. And for me, how that workshop gave me time to think about that- that concept of loneliness, and how I can go on these big trips. And I'm usually always around people in some capacity. And I can kind of be on this high. And then I come home, and I almost experience like a couple of days of a low. And I thought prior to this workshop, that that was loneliness. And it was me just integrating back into my life of being on my own, and all that kind of stuff. And it always just felt so, like- just kind of polarizing. And during that workshop, I realized that around this thing of connection because I have a really big group of people that I can always connect with. But that when I go away, I have a tendency to lose connection with myself. And that it was- that- and so being just so much more intentional on this trip, that I stay fully connected to not just everyone who I'm traveling with or working with or everything else, but that I fully stay connected to myself. And the flipside of that was, I was able to come home and just so easily transition into just being back. And that it was almost this feeling of loneliness was happening when I was away, and kind of missing myself more. Yeah, and it's through journaling through taking time to actually intentionally think about these things that we can so easily just dismiss and we just keep carrying on. But yeah, how many valuable lessons came from being intentional about even just looking at- yeah, those things in a different way. So thank you for that.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  45:33  
Gosh, well, first of all, clearly, you had a headstart, and you've been in this space, working on yourself and developing yourself for a very long time. And so I'm gonna say this was just one more piece for you to go further. But yes, I think so. I think that understanding how connection works for us what the experience of connection can be when you're by yourself, and when you're intentionally with others, and to the, you know, to the point that we raised in that all day workshop, when you're out with others, right, a Barbara Fredrickson says so well, I think she's at the University of Pennsylvania now. And she says so well, like that connection we're having with people just momentary connection throughout the day, when someone holds the door open for you, when you're exchanging money with the cashier at the grocery store, right? If you make it important, and you see the value of the exchange between two human beings going through their lives, it can fill your tank. Before that was introduced to me, I had no idea I was just wasting or ignoring, right, the ways to fill my tank that were ever present to me. So yes, I think that- that's beautifully said again, like that idea that, hey, I have some connection to myself that I have to maintain, before I get to connect with others, or maybe in lieu of connecting with others. 

Emily Rodger  47:05  
Yeah, and that even just kind of makes me think of- it's like, when you run into someone in the street, it's almost like- you can- you don't even have to have a conversation with them, and you can kind of tell how they are inside. Or even how many times like I've been- I remember flying on Christmas Day. And the flight attendant was like, you are so happy to be flying on Christmas Day, like I wasn't talking to anybody, I was just kind of going about my business. But it's this feeling of when we have that inner peace within ourselves, and when we have that connection within ourselves, other people pick up on it, and it makes you approachable and even open to being able to have connection with other people, because maybe they feel psychologically safe to be able to connect with you, or spark up a conversation with you. Or that connection can just be, like you said, just a simple smile and make eye contact.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  47:54  
But isn't it funny that these aren't things we learn? Right? Or they're not things that- that sit anywhere on your curriculum? Right? And once you're aware of them, like the added benefit, right, is never ending. 

Emily Rodger  48:09  
Yeah, and why it's not the norm. Why- why people are almost like, oh my gosh, like, why are you happy? They're almost like surprised, like, why are you smiling? What's wrong with you? Just, like, carrying on my life.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  48:24  
But ever present, intentional, living a really intentional life. I mean, you are doing a lot of labor in order to show up like that consistently. And yet we get, as coaches, to be able to influence others to get on that journey. 

Dave Veale  48:38  
Sometimes there's serendipity too, right? Like I was thinking of a flight I took recently, my phone died, they didn't have a screen on the seat in front. So I just started talking to the guy next to me. He had such an interesting background, we had this great conversation, before I knew it, we're landing in Chicago. And it was all because, you know, he said, oh, I can plug that in for you, I've got this- He had a- you know, like a portable battery, or whatever. That's how the conversations got- But other than that, we would have been locked into our devices, you know. So sometimes just, you know- I was just- it was just good fortune, because I met someone who I really, you know, enjoyed and- and had a really interesting story.

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  49:20  
And yet, we don't know ourselves that well, right? I mean, again, like, you know, if you ask most people, hey, I'm going to take your phone away from you while you're on this flight, and what we really want you to do is engage with the people around you, like, most of us would be put off by that. Maybe I should say most Americans, maybe I won't speak for Canadians. But I'll say most Americans would be put off by like, no, give me my phone. I actually don't want to talk to the people around me. I just want some peace and quiet. I want to get from here to there. And yet we don't know ourselves well enough to know the joy that comes when you actually do open yourself, right, to the people around you, and be curious, and be in that space, and be present with them for the period of time that you're there. And how filling that can be.

Dave Veale  50:04  
Well, speaking of connection and conversations of- we're like, almost at an hour here, and I'm just like what happened? I was like thinking- I was looking at the timer, thinking we'd be around 20 minutes. It's- it's fun, like, to have- and this is actually, you know, what I love about the podcast, and it kind of pulls me always into this is- is to reconnect with Emily, but then- and to connect with the guest. And I find it- you know, and this topic in particular, is very interesting to me, and I- you know, we say this to a number of guests. But you know, it's one of those things where we could certainly go deeper and go have another conversation, I'm sure, because there's a whole bunch of work you've done with nonprofits we haven't touched on. If people aren't watching YouTube, would you let the listeners know how to connect with you in terms of- you know, and learn more about you and maybe book some time with you or find out how you- you can come into their organization? 

Kelley Russell-DuVarney  50:59  
Yeah. Thanks, Dave. Yeah, so my company is Vantage Coaching. And I am in Austin, Texas. And I do have a website and a way to connect with me there. You can also find me on LinkedIn as everybody else is there as well, and connect with me through there, and I am readily available for conversation. I often say to people, like, coaches are the least boundaried people, they still want to connect with others and be a resource for others. Please reach out. I'd love to have a conversation.

Emily Rodger  51:30  
Wonderful. Yeah. Kelley, I love that, and you do- like you- I can speak from personal experience, you do make that open and sincerely mean that. So listeners, definitely encourage you to reach out to Kelley. And so we will list all of Kelley's information and any extras we discussed in the show notes, and the best place to find that is on our website. We're active on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and this video version will be available on YouTube and Facebook. And of course the podcast is available on all of your favorite podcast platforms. We will see you next time. Thank you for listening. Follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app, or visit BoilingPointPodcast.com for more.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai