Matt Cundill: Sounds Like A Plan

Emily Rodger  0:00  
Hi, I'm Emily Rodger, host of the Boiling Point podcast. My co-host, Dave Veale, and I will bring you thoughtful discussions with leaders who are positively impacting our world. This is the Boiling Point, where leadership and inspiration meet. Dave every time, every time.

Dave Veale  0:21  
Every time what? You know, listen to that intro?

Emily Rodger  0:25  
You reboot computers.

Dave Veale  0:30  
Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I don't want to torture anyone listening to this, but technology has not been my friend today and, and you currently impatiently along with our guests, waited for me to try to figure this out. But wow, I love that intro. That's very fresh. Yeah, I've heard it. So well done.

Emily Rodger  0:53  
So Dave, how are you? It is like winter has kind of arrived here on the East Coast.

Dave Veale  0:59  
It has yeah, I know. We're, we're like in it. It just it was like summery, and then bam winter, like it was 22 degrees and then minus one. So welcome to anyone that wants to experience that come to Atlantic Canada and you can experience for sure. What's new -

When it gets like this? Oh, go ahead.

What's new, exciting with you? You got some cool travel coming up. I know that. 

Emily Rodger  1:26  
Oh, my gosh, I have some wild travel coming up. Yeah, I actually leave in two days to go fishing for bluefin tuna heading to Nova Scotia for that, and then a couple of other local trips and then my next big big trip is I got to Africa and I'll be over there for minimum five weeks, maybe longer working on yeah, some projects over there and it's wild. That's a dream come true trip.

Dave Veale  2:03  
I think we'll have some exciting conversations after that trip. So I look forward to hear, I live vicariously through you. I think it sounds awesome and I mean, I've been aware of it, but there's a lot of details I'm not entirely aware of so I look forward to catch up on that for sure.

Emily Rodger  2:19  
You will live vicariously through me until you hear all about my flights and how many flights to get to every destination and then you will say I'm happy it's Emily, not me because our love for flying is totally different. 

Dave Veale  2:32  
Yes, yes, that was true. We figured that out a few podcasts ago for sure.

Emily Rodger  2:39  
So really cool guest on our show today we have Matt Cundill and Matt is a someone who I mean, like you talked about the team that comes together for the Boiling Point, Matt is a integral part of our team. We'll get more into that when we bring him on, but Matt is a 25 year radio veteran who has worked in Montreal, Winnipeg, Edmonton, and even the Annapolis Valley. He transitioned to voiceover and podcast in 2014 after getting restructured out of traditional media, which I'm sure there will be a story in there about that. And after being a talent coach to so many in radio, he transitioned to podcast to do the same. Matt Cundill, welcome to the Boiling Point

Matt Cundill  3:34  
Thanks so much for having me.

Emily Rodger  3:37  
I feel like first and foremost, it is like you are the one that mostly helps Dave with his microphone.

Matt Cundill  3:49  
I'm all about the tech. It really is. It's not really all about the tech these days and it could be just about anything. It could be your Wi Fi, it could be your microphone, it could be your computer, there's just so many obstacles to get in the way of of a great broadcast.

Emily Rodger  4:05  
Yeah, and thank you so much for coming on the show and I wanted to have you on because Sound Off Media your company is the company that we have hired through the boiling point to help us with our podcast and think that like navigating this whole podcast world is something that so many people are doing and you make that happen for so many people. 

Matt Cundill  4:29  
It's true. I mean, this podcast has been around for a long time, going right back to the early days. When we say early days of podcasting in the early days or 2004, but a lot of people began to sort of dabble 2015, 2016 and you could do it but it was quite complex back then you had to iTunes and there was Google Play and there was all sorts of strange ways to to make your podcast happen. And now it's become so streamlined and so easy with so many technological toys out there that now we're able to do more like for instance, this is video, a lot of people may be watching this on video, they may be hearing this on audio. So with all the different ways to put the content out there, that's sort of where my company comes in and every day we wake up and there's something new and something different that we need to make a change, or we need to make an adjustment with how we do things. 

Emily Rodger  5:20  
Yeah, Dave, how do you feel with all the technical changes and how easy they all are?

Dave Veale  5:26  
Simple streamline. What I find amazing is actually like you make certain things I'm quite simple Matt. It's actually very complex. There's a lot of moving parts, there's a lot of things happening and am I alone, out there in just wanting to have a podcast, but and wanting it to get out to an audience. But all the all the things that happen in between recording something and how it gets out. I find it fascinating, but I don't really want to know it all, because it just feels so complicated and convoluted to me. Am I alone in thinking that?

Matt Cundill  6:04  
No, not at all. It's it is it's a very deregulated space. The art it comes from an RSS feed. So this show goes out on an RSS feed. And people go, well, what's that, and it's think of it as a radio transmitter. That sort of beams everything out and beams out all the content. But here we are, now, we're gonna put out a new episode, the new episode gets picked up by the phones. And then the phones, I sort of look at the RSS feed as a purse. So every time you put something new into the purse, everybody gets an update to what that is. And then eventually, things like, you know, Apple, and Google will come around and pick up the person, take it and deliver it to you. So basically, it's a delivery system, but it's not centralized. People think of you know, Netflix is being that's a centralized place for you to get movies, but there is no Netflix of podcasting, it's an open to free and open space, it's very democratic, you can just simply have a website and still put your stuff out. So that's one of the beauties of podcasts. But it also sort of keeps a little bit complicated in in how the distribution happens. 

Dave Veale  7:06  
So I'm just curious about your, like, you have a background radio broadcast and television are, you know, like, is that the perfect foundation, you think, to build, you know, in a support podcast, like because, like when I listen to, you clearly have a radio voice, right off the bat for some energy, I was like, okay, I must have been on the radio, for sure he was on the radio. And, and I'm just, you know, you're at a radio, you're into this space now, but like, tell us about how, you know, leveraging that what that knowledge and experience has helped you in this genre.

Matt Cundill  7:46  
So it's actually not the best. It actually runs a little bit, you know, against the grain of what podcast is. So the day I figured it out was when I learned that radio is live and local and that podcasting is on demand. So when you watch television, you can see the Super Bowl or the Academy Awards, and that's often taking place live, and you'll watch that. But then you go to Netflix, and you can watch that anytime. And it can take you about seven or eight minutes to find the thing you watch, which is much like podcasting, right, it takes a little bit of time to go figure out which one you want to listen to. So I began to bust it up into two parts. And this is on demand audio versus audio that that is live and local and so once I separated those two parts, I began saying, okay, your radio is radio, but podcasting really has more in common with books, and magazines and blogs, than radio. Outside of the microphones, that's really all they have in common. One thing radio is really good at though is promoting, and say, hey, tomorrow morning, 8:15, be sure to be listening for this and join us for this and traffic and weather together on the ones. We're very much trained to be able to do that. Well, with podcasting, it's on demand. So trying to motivate people to go into, you know, to listen and to access the show, when they have really a whole runway of life in front of them. It's not, you know, there's no there's no demand for that, but radio is so strong with their promotion, and they do it so well. So that's some of the things from radio that I brought and that's really the marketing side of things and how to market a podcast.

Emily Rodger  9:23  
So with you transitioning out of radio, and getting into your own company, and like what what happened, what happened there?

Matt Cundill  9:35  
Well, I got fired. And you know, they say everybody in radio gets fired at least once. It just took me to the anniversary of my 25th year in radio before they said, well, you're done. I thought I was gonna get a cake and it was going to be a sort of a celebration of 25 years and radio. Turns out, they gave me a package out and that was 2014 and I understand why the business of radio radically changed. It began to sort of, I mean, I think there's sort of two downfalls to radio and largely music, radio, if you were working in it, probably Napster followed by Spotify, where music became sort of ubiquitous, and you can get it anywhere. And then social media in 2007, when that came along, you know, people got their information quicker, faster from different sources and radio began to change again. And then the money began to disappear. People would advertise on Google and Facebook, instead of their local radio station or their newspaper and so the money began to change. And really, you know, you couldn't really afford a six figure, Program Director to do talent coaching at that point.

Emily Rodger  10:44  
So you then did you then jump right into owning, like entrepreneurship? Like, how did that all come up for you?

Matt Cundill  10:54  
There's a lot of lonely nights, I'll tell you trying to figure it out. And what am I going to do next, and I started to do some radio consulting which was okay. I found consulting to be a little bit odd. Because every suggestion I was making was running into budgetary problems and again, I kept going back into radio, and then was the budget problems with you know, we need more money in order to be able to pull off this particular stunt or event or, you know, what, what you're asking us to accomplish, and then took a boat to 2016 when I did a trip to Chicago, to Podcast Movement. And I took a look around and I said, we've got all these microphones, we've got all these people and all these people are podcasting and there's ideas and public radio was really in the space. And there were you know, Gimlet Media was making these wonderful podcasts and people were listening, I thought, I can do this. I don't know exactly where the goal is, but it kind of reminded me of pond hockey, everybody out there with a microphone doing things in this sort of infinite space. So I can keep the puck on my stick because I know how to do audio. When I see the goal, I'll be able to shoot and take a shot on that and score and so I started my own podcasts, I thought the most obvious thing to do is to start my own. And I said, well, what am I going to talk about? Sadly, the only thing I knew what to talk about was radio and broadcast. And so I did that and then we did it every week and then we kept on going and then within a year, we learned a little bit more about the technology, what was right what was wrong. And then by the second year, we hit about 2017 began to make a few partnerships and I found everybody was really, really super kind and willing to help out. And, and you know, there's a real rising tide lifts all boats approach with podcasting, because it is such a wide open space. And then if you're doing the same podcast subject that I'm doing, we can work together to grow the audience, as opposed to where, you know, in radio, where you're looking for audience at the same time, you're trying to kill each other. And you're keeping secrets and, you know, enemy and vitriol and all that said, it's completely the opposite. So that that what I saw in the space, it really floored me and the people were so kind and can help. Would you like this toy? Would you like that toy? Have you tried this? Have you tried that? And then there was the idea that I have to pay it back as well. So you'll from there, and it took to about 2018 before somebody approached me and said, could you help me with my podcast. The irony was I wanted to actually use the radio podcast to promote my voiceover business. And in turn, I people liked the sound of the show so much and what I was doing, they just wanted to know what he was talking about earlier. I just want to cut through the clutter and the nonsense of all the yik yak of RSS feeds and technological stuff. And can you just help me put this out? Well enough so that, you know, we can get our content out there. And with the very first podcast, that was the deal was cutting a yoga studio between classes. I want to have a podcast, oh, okay, I'll start it. And we were off and running to the races with with a brand new company.

Dave Veale  14:02  
Awesome. I love that and just how it kind of evolved, it sounds like you just let it you kind of nurtured it, let it let it evolve organically and then saw that opportunity, which is you know, is seem to be the entrepreneurs journey often.

Matt Cundill  14:18  
I never got into this to be an entrepreneur and never thought of myself as one. It I think it was more of a necessity. There weren't gonna be any more jobs and radio. And I knew that the space would the podcasting space would be a possibility for me and I think I remember in 2017 I attended a session could What if you wanted to make podcasting your full time job? And I thought, well, that sounds like a long shot, but eventually it did happen. And it was possible with you know, once I started to make a few more podcasts for other people, and then learn about best practices and then you know, I think the mistake people make when they get let go from from a corporate job or from an industry that is in decline, much like broadcasting is they don't realize how many skills that they have accumulated that they can transfer over into something new. And you know, you're more than your resume. When it comes to something like that, yes, you turn on the microphone and talk every day. But you know how to communicate, you know how to market, you know, definitely how to sell yourself. I actually thought one of the best things I could probably do is I could probably run a political campaign for anybody, because radio is all about getting elected. And the system is based on paper ballots and going out there and being known. Well, that's what an election is, I was essentially running an election every six months for the last 25 years. So I asked the Conservative Party of Canada if they wanted to hire me, they said no, and then they lost the next few elections. But I said, I can see what you're doing wrong. You know, and you begin to see things and notice that a lot of you can't read the label inside the pickle jar. But you know, when you do enough research and radio and you and you're hanging around, that you really can begin to see and know a few more things. So any advice is somebody who does get restructured out of declining industry, you're more than your resume. 

Emily Rodger  16:14  
Amen. I love the you know, you brought it around, just the people in the industry being so nice and just how powerful that is in itself. And like, I remember when I was a little girl, I wanted to for a job, I wanted to work at a grocery store and it was because I loved the apron that wore at Sobeys and the people were so nice. I was like, I just I want to be nice, I want to be in a work environment that's nice. And so for you to say that around people within the podcast industry and that, like, we can all learn and support one another in that and it doesn't have to be a competition.

Matt Cundill  16:53  
You know, I really thought that the thing right now I in 2013, I suggested to radio after I sort of saw the writing on the wall, that you need to come together as a group in order to promote the medium, so that people listen to it every day and it's front and center and people hear about it. Whether it's going to be for an emergency, or whether it's going to be for news information, whatever it's good for. But you know, the companies that were running them, and I don't mind calling them out and saying Rodgers chorus, Bell, possibly Stingray, you know, they weren't really interested in getting together to work towards common solutions. There was a Canadian Association of Broadcasters that was largely unutilized and to this day, I don't think there's very much they do together to really forward the medium, they really are more interested in taking at declining ad revenue from one another and that's largely unhelpful. And when I say that, I really mean Canada, in the US, they're slightly better. In Europe, they're doing a much better job of promoting themselves and staying relevant. Even a country like Denmark, they've got subscription radio, who's ever heard of such a thing, but they're trying it and it's new. And, you know, I'd be surprised if you went to your local radio station and found anybody on the air after after 6pm.

Dave Veale  18:09  
You mentioned earlier, I was just thinking about the comment. I'd like to go back to it. It's that you were saying, you said somewhat necessity, like I didn't really have a choice. And, you know, in terms of making this business work, right. And I'm just I'm curious about like, the reason I bring that up is that I was talking, when I first got into the coaching business, I was talking to a couple masters certified coaches, I was actually three, all women, just these brilliant kind of amazing coaches. And I was trying to get a sense of how they were successful and all three of them had a similar story. Like it was like, we didn't have a choice, we had to be successful, like this had to work. And I hear that from entrepreneurs a lot and I even think of, you know, my own journey where there's times where it's like, man, we got to make this work, because, you know, so what is it about, in your opinion, Matt, around necessity, that just helps creativity, innovation, try all sorts of things. Do you see a connection there? 

Matt Cundill  19:10  
Yeah, well, it's fear. More than that, I mean, fear is a great motivator. I think when I when I say that, I could have gone back there were there were job offers, there was opportunity to go and take on, you know, a few positions and work with some great people too, but where would it go two years from now? What was going to happen next? What was going to be the business if it's continuing in decline? What's going to be left for you? Well, I realized I was going to be two or three years behind where we are now today. And the business that I started, was going to languish and I was going to be able to keep up I would go right back into a radio ecosystem that was hell bent on doing the same wrong things over and over again, and struggling. So it felt I mean, really, honestly to walk into a radio station 2017 through 2022 and then of course, accelerated by the pandemic, it feels like, you know, bailing the ocean with a spoon. And you're getting into this space, which is growing and no, the money is not the same. It's much less, you know, working with niche podcasts and smaller audiences. And listen, everybody loves that 50,000 person quarter hour. But then I began to sort of look and say, well, how's that measured? You know, a podcast, like the Boiling Point, which has hundreds of people listening to this, where they're downloading. So you're giving up space on the phone, you're listening intently to the show, and you're coming away with some value. Well, that's pretty good and you know, the radio, nothing is radio, I love my local radio station at eight in the morning, I'll pick up five minutes in news and, you know, a few laughs along the way and it's just sort of a different way of consumption. But would you rather have a very large audience of 1000s? Or would you rather have a few 100 of the right audience? So there's a definitely a different mindset and I ran into especially, there's, I mentioned about the comparison with radio and podcast, radio, people really need to unlearn so many bad habits before they get involved with with this particular thing. And so I went to a longtime radio person, and I said, hey, you know, you've got this many YouTube people, you've got this many downloads, and you've got that, you know, if I add all that, together, that's 30,000 People who have consumed your show in the last month, you know, it's yeah, that's nothing compared to what I had in radio. And I said, well, not really, I mean, those people came in for a little bit, these people were making an active choice, to put it push everything aside, to consume and come and listen to what you're offering and the size of 30,000 fills a you know, two nights at, you know, at your local, big hockey arena. So I don't know what your problem is, you're just, you're not looking at the numbers properly, you've got to learn to count properly. And I get some people that come in, you know, we only got 80 downloads, I think I'm gonna quit. I said, well, wait a second. If I gave you the opportunity to speak to 80 people, every Friday at lunch at your local club, or restaurant, or get wherever you gather, you take that opportunity. So why would you quit? No, it's, it's all how we sort of look at the numbers and break it down again, we can be very fooled by them. 

Emily Rodger  22:26  
Sorry, sometimes I love just being naive to things and going into things without knowing any different. You spoke about how your skill sets, you know, to not look at your resume for just what your skill sets are. And so you now have multiple revenue streams and different companies and areas that you work within. Looking back now, what skill sets did you even have back then that maybe you didn't recognize that you had have really helped propel you forward into what you're doing now?

Matt Cundill  23:03  
When you say back then do you mean back in radio?

Emily Rodger  23:06  
Yeah, yeah. When you were first let go when you didn't receive that cake.

Matt Cundill  23:13  
Oh, I was so married to what I learned in radio and not really prepared to to unlearn you know, so much stuff. There was a bit of a loneliness part where I think the first thing was, I need a microphone. So I went and bought a microphone, and it sat in the corner and then the second thing I needed to do was to talk into it and figure out how to how to reconnect. The next thing I needed to do and I can't believe I never learned this when I was at radio was how to edit audio. I, I'm kind of astounded that I never really learned how to edit it while I was running a radio station, I would just go to a guy say hey, can you edit this. And eventually, I wanted to, you know, doing all my own editing and learning a little bit about sound and getting a little bit deeper into it. I'm quite surprised, actually, that it took that to sort of spring into it into it into another spot going forward. Yeah and then of course, learning, learning the technical stuff, which was, you know, a lot of failure along the way and making all the mistakes. And then when people say, well, why should why should we work with you? I said, because I made all the mistakes you're about to make so let me save you the trouble.

Dave Veale  24:28  
There's a, as I listened to you, I love that there's a humility that I imagine attracts people to working with you Matt. You know that that because we're all going through this little this this podcast journey as an example, despite having participated as a you know, in a whole bunch, right over the years you just, it's like you constantly feel like a neophyte, right. And so it's kind of nice to feel like you can talk to something and just be a slug, you know, I feel like, if you are someone different, it would be more challenging to do that. But that level of humility, and it sounds like, you know, as you describe your experience, like you've kind of went through a bit of a valley that, you know, in terms of self discovery is just what kind of goes through my brain as you share that. Do you find that really helps you connect with people?

Matt Cundill  25:25  
I just tell my story and I'm honest about it, and just say, yeah, I've already flunked at this. And I'm here to help you not flunk at this thing and you know, that humility part I think I still go through it today, I can just tell you a couple things that have happened today. I don't know how Substack works. I know a lot of people are writers, and they want a podcast, and they are also on Substack and I don't know how that works exactly. Can I embed the podcast into their Substack? So far I'm finding the answer is no, you actually have to have the actual podcast on Substack for that. But that's a level of discovery of going through to figure out, you know, how does that work? Video is now the new thing. We're doing this right now on video, this is your first episode I can see that we're doing here on stream yard, which is, you know, one of the technological things that is sort of sprung forward to to make it easy so that we can stream you know, with a lot more ease, but you know, they're going through the same thing. How do we make it so that, you know, this is easy for creators like Emily and Dave, to be able to pop on here and bring guests on in as well produced their own shows, and, you know, kick it out as quickly as possible. 

Dave Veale  26:37  
So I think usually, let me use this thing, which I understand in terms of screw ups, you're talking about the frustrations. I've been using the same for years and I learned today that it hasn't been working. 

Matt Cundill  26:54  
So again, you know what, like, so much of the stuff like it volleys technical, the technology now moves so quickly stuff becomes outdated very, very quickly. And the way things get done, now we're in this like, new world of video, which you guys have already been involved in. So you have a bit of a head start, but I'm getting no rush on people who are coming and saying, you know, I don't have a YouTube presence and, you know, a lot of people say they they are discovering podcasts on YouTube, how do I get involved with that and, you know, there's a very, very fast learning that needs to happen. You know, YouTube made the announcement last week onto this week and I'm telling people, this is what you need to do in order to, you know, have your show visible on YouTube where people can see it and these two people have been podcasting as long as you guys have all the way back to 2015. And they have no YouTube presence and maybe you have no desire for one, but like I said, you know, the Google app is going to go away in September 2024, it will be replaced by YouTube, and you're going to have to have videos on YouTube in order to participate your choice, if you would like to do it. If you do it, you're just not going to be allowed to say wherever you get your podcasts. Because if you get your podcasts on YouTube, and you're not there hence the problem.

Emily Rodger  28:11  
Yeah. Where do you like, and again, I'm like, wanting to like kind of dig deeper here. But it's like you have such a great mindset and you are someone who in the conversations that I've had with you, you also have such a great perspective. And with that, it's like where does that come from? Like it like Have you always had that or like in what like was there activities that you were doing, like as a kid growing up or anything that even are able to kind of attribute what you now know, to what you've maybe learned back then?

Matt Cundill  28:47  
I think it's a heightened awareness. I'm very aware of the surroundings and what's going on, and where the pitfalls are and I've had conversations with people, they say, you always seem to point out the negative things before, you know when an idea comes out. And I said, I just want to point out the pitfalls so we don't waste a lot of time getting where we where we need to go. And so that would come from, I think probably live radio and so every day, from two o'clock to six o'clock in Edmonton, or the Annapolis Valley, or whether it was all nights in Montreal, you know, I would have to talk two or three times an hour live and people are listening and it can sometimes be one word that will, that could tank the whole thing. Somebody will misinterpret something, become offended. How can you deliver the message in a short succinct way? So if you write something out and it comes out to a minute, can we cut that down to about 45 seconds in order to deliver the same message? All that stuff is really really important when you're when you're going live. What's the presentation look like so, you know, in a podcast, for instance, what's the artwork? What's in the description? How is it going to come out in people's ears? Is it going to be too noisy? Is it going to be too quiet? Will the P's be popping, you know, every little detail, you want to get rid of all that so people can continue to listen and feel at peace and at home with what they're listening to and if they're uncomfortable, you can make people uncomfortable on the radio by talking about the wrong subjects. Politics for instance, if you if you're talking politics, and people aren't expecting you to talk politics and make people feel uncomfortable, they're gone. That's not helpful. That's that's a problem. You know, there's, you know, I'll give you another great example and I know this because you do bring people on who have, for instance, have a book. And nobody has ever thought about this, but I was taught this, and I guess it's working from great coaches. Valerie Geller is one of my favorite coaches in the whole world, she has a book, and she, you know, has told me about, you know, tell the truth, make it matter, never be boring. Those are the three rules to going on the radio. So if I were to bring a guest on the show, onto my radio show, and they had a book, and I started to tell my audience oh, so and so is here today, an author and has a book, well, the listener is gonna think I don't need to hear this interview, because they're not going to be giving away the best parts, because the best parts are in the book, and they want me to buy the book and so we would immediately see a drop in listenership on the radio. Because people knew that. The only other time we would see that sort of drop on the radio was when we had a politician, and people knew they were not going to get the truth. It was the only two times I could really sort of pinpoint, like, constantly looking at ratings and seeing, you know, the dropping. So in order to be a good communicator, and this is to answer your question, Emily, about how to how do you know how to communicate that stuff? I go right back to Valerie, tell the truth, never be boring, always make it matter.

Dave Veale  32:04  
Good advice. Excellent advice. So, you know, you've had a chance to listen to the Boiling Point a number of times, probably more than you care to share. Love, what what do you what advice do you have for for me, as a as a host, in terms of in terms of making, you know, like, like, just what's an area of opportunity that you see. I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but, you know, in terms of sharing a perspective, I'd love to hear.

Matt Cundill  32:33  
I don't need to give you too much advice, because I think you're genuinely curious. And so the questions you've asked you mean, you following along with the conversation, you're listening. By the way listening back to the people you're interviewing, you'll be surprised the number of people who don't do that and I'll point to Terry Gross, who's the host of fresh air, NPR down in the states who I had no idea even existed up until 2017 when I started speaking, Philadelphia, at Podcast Movement, by the way. But for those who are lucky to catch fresh air on NPR, she is she's the best interviewer out there, I think. It's the Howard Stern. She said something said, be sure to listen. Listen back to what you know, you're what they're saying and you played a clip of the time she wasn't listening and somebody went off the rails and said something tremendously offside. And she had said, woo woo woo back up, did you say? And she said, I wasn't listening and so being curious, is part of it. And then always listening back, but you're doing both those things right now, Dave. And, you know, we're having a great free flow conversation. Lots of people are watching, they're still in, in the audio side of things. This is being recorded, it will be a separate audio experience when it's consumed in audio. So we'll be able to edit it back. So that's fine and there's nothing wrong with being edited. Because again, it's like I said, I wrote something out to a minute, I cut it to 45 seconds and I can go to air with it. Another rule from Valerie Geller, anything you can record, you can make better.

Dave Veale  33:59  
I find it really Emily I don't know, if you find this, I find it. I want to just jump into the conversation, but we also have our notes right that we've been we've been given ahead of time and I find it it's almost challenging, right because you want to follow the conversation and further conversation and this is good stuff you want to as that, that we've gotten as a pre read. I think Matt's always said you know, just the pre read is what it is stick in the conversation but for me it's like it's a bit of a balancing act. Do you find that as well?

Emily Rodger  34:27  
I actually don't really look at the notes I do to get to know the guest but then I think that I just get so in like ingrained in the conversation of what's being said I shouldn't say I don't look at the notes but that is it for me. It's like yeah, I just I just I guess I am just curious and I want to note like even right now my mind is going to what is it that that makes a good radio voice like why is your like what is it about your voice that just makes it pleasing to people's ears to listen to.

Matt Cundill  35:05  
I think speaking from the chest in the stomach is the physical part. But I think, I think learning how to be around a microphone and, you know, knowing your microphone is really key. It could I've worked with the wrong ones before. So it's kind of like a hockey stick, you know, you went there, and this is my stick. Now, it's not my stick, I like this stick better and you go with that, having your favorite pen at work is always going to going to work if you're going to be a writer. But I think you know, what makes somebody so compelling in the audio world is writing. So if you know how to write, you're going to be really good at this and the other thing I was going to mention, is really about, you know, from the coaches side of things, and you know, Dave was mentioning about preparation, and hey, I've got these notes and we want to follow along. So I would probably look at this from two sides and this is Bill Parcells, New York Giants head coach for many years, and we won two Super Bowls there. 50% preparation, 50% execution. So you've done the preparation, you have it in front of you. This is the execution part and you have to be prepared to pivot and make changes along the way. So Emily's already done that, she's read it,  she's prepared. And now she's just executing and Dave, you've got a playbook. You're you want to stick to the playbook, but at the same time, you know, you can you can you can take a deviation and come back if you want. You have permission for that.

Dave Veale  36:32  
Good advice. Good advice. Yeah and probably I haven't done as much preparation as I should have. So I've got just full full disclosure, of rebalancing.

Matt Cundill  36:42  
Nobody needs to know that. 

Dave Veale  36:44  
Oh, well, so so we're gonna edit that out or not? It doesn't matter to me, because it's the truth. You said-

Emily Rodger  36:49  
You're humble. Matt not did say that ou have to be honest, that being honest is what makes-

Dave Veale  36:59  
Yeah, exactly. And then and knowing your mic, well, clearly, I don't. We've established that. I cannot figure it doesn't work. So I'm using an internal mic and my my computer. 

Matt Cundill  37:13  
Yeah and again, that could be you know, it's so many people, they buy microphones, USB ones, and then they want to add a second one. And I'm like, you need another part for that and that's another few 100 bucks, and I can so understand how it gets discouraging for people. You know, who want to start. I mean, listen, if you want to start a podcast, you just pick up your phone and just record in your phone. And you can upload it and that's a podcast, right? I think, though, with with the choice of 4 million podcasts out there today, that you want to make the best possible one that you can in order to compete and make a good listenable experience for everybody. And the number of people who say, Well, I don't need to edit my show, or I doesn't matter about the content, because, you know, the content will speak for itself. Well, it won't speak for itself if people find it unlistenable. 

Emily Rodger  38:02  
Hmm. Yeah, there was a podcast that I was listening to once and I really wanted to listen to it because it had great content that I wanted to hear. But I think that guy had a like a mint in his mouth. Like there was something there was some sort of a noise that I'm like, I cannot handle this anymore.

Dave Veale  38:22  
So we're allowed to shut it off. Because I did the same thing, or the topic just veers and away and I'm like, I don't, this is just like too negative or, you know, whatever it is. You can't like wish which goes to show you can lose your audience pretty quick. 

Matt Cundill  38:41  
Negativity is not good. Especially in podcasts, you know, your your got your headphones on, you want to listen to something nice and you know, when you hear people yelling at each other, it will make your heart rate go faster. And you're like, I don't think I want to be a part of this. I don't feel so good. So then you'll then you'll stop and turn it off and find something else.

Emily Rodger  39:02  
Speaking of heart rate going faster, I'm going to completely change the subject because Matt, I know a fun fact about you and that is that you have caught a salmon over 40 pounds.

Matt Cundill  39:18  
True. Happened in 2017. So we go right back to that period when I was like, you know, I was I was kind of coming into my own in the podcast space and it was obviously a year of good fortune and went fishing. My mother is an avid fishermen, fisherwoman and she goes every year, and she invited me and we were on the grand Cassiopeia river and I think I got I got one earlier in the day and then little bit I could afford to take a few more chances later in the day, I think oh, so we pulled out an unusual fly and threw it in and it was I think about an hour and a quarter an hour and a half fighting with a big one and the guide said, I think this is over 40 and when we landed her she was 41 pounds and from there on my family this was the first time anybody had landed a 40 pound salmon out of the grand Cassiopeia River, which is sort of considered the threshold of the granddaddy of of all fish. And then my family is resented it to this day and I haven't been invited back.

Emily Rodger  40:27  
What more is there to catch?

Matt Cundill  40:30  
any if you're driving down to two nine in highway two to nine in in Quebec, to think starts in Santa Ana de mon goes down, near Mariah, Martha's run was the pool.

Emily Rodger  40:49  
Amazing a 40. I mean, that is a big fish and the grand Cassiopeia is that I think that is one of the most beautiful rivers in the world, like not even just in Atlantic, Canada, but in the world. And it definitely get some big fish in that river and that is pretty unreal and I love that to around you saying that, you know, you've got one in the morning is kind of like the pressure was taken off a little bit. And I wonder if it would have been the same experience and if that fish, which mean we'll never know, but had have still been landed if you maybe had not have got the one in that morning and there was a little bit more at stake. 

Matt Cundill  41:29  
Yeah, I probably would have gotten on the more conservative fly and which is, yeah, I probably I was sort of if I hadn't got the one in the morning, I wouldn't have gotten the one in the afternoon, I would have gone with a more conservative fly and I would actually have no fish that particular day and I'd still be looking for for the 40 pounder.

Emily Rodger  41:49  
Yes. First presented in your family. Oh, 

Matt Cundill  41:51  
Yeah no, it's hasn't been good for family relations and I'm not the most avid fisherman, you know, my sister is and my mother is and they're, they're upset.

Dave Veale  42:01  
Which makes it more infuriating for them, right? And the other thing, but I was thinking what a what a beautiful metaphor for life to write, like taking chances, taking risks, trying something new not being conservative, you know, what I would entrepreneurship and, and, you know, launching a career, you know, in this world and the podcast world and the voiceover world, I'm guessing you probably had to be unconventional and not, you know, take some risks, and use of flies that you may or might not have used otherwise. 

Matt Cundill  42:35  
Yeah, you know, I listen to podcasts like this one that talks about, oh, you know, taking risks and being bold and I'll be honest, it's a I've got the mentality of an 11 year old, and I've start, I just start a fire. And then I say, let's see what happens if we throw some credit on it.

Emily Rodger  42:54  
I love and that is that thing of like, you know, for me, it's like really wanting to get to know people and just like, what their interests are, what their passions are, because what metaphors we can draw from other things that we do, and we enjoy and apply it to life. And I know Matt, for you also, you're big into yoga, you have actually sent me some tips on doing handstands and headstands and even with that, it's like what do you learn? What can you take from yoga and apply it professionally within your companies as well?

Matt Cundill  43:28  
Go to yoga so you can get off the computer and get off social media. I think you can't bring your phone in there and do anything. So it's, you know, the same thing when you go fishing, right? You know, there's probably no reception where you're going. So it's just good to get away from all that stuff, but I think just going the movement is important. Because, again, you can see me I'm sitting here most of the day, there's a microphone, if I have to redo a voiceover, I can go to the microphone in the corner, which is oh, I get to stand. And so we really developing and moving into a spot where I can be completely sedentary and say, okay, I'm gonna get up and go to yoga, I'm gonna see other people. And there's going to be a community of people there and there'll be different, and, but we're all gonna be able to do you know, some movement together, learn some new things, and just to stretch, you know, changes, you know, the mindset, it changes, a little bit of, you know, the course of your day. So we're talking about going upside down, I tried to go upside down once a day, just to change perspective, or at least clean the blood out of my head, one of the two changes the circulation of your body, and gives you a chance to maybe and I think maybe don't have any evidence of this, that it gives you a new perspective on maybe some of the things that are troubling you. So I really I do enjoy going upside down whether it's I think the pose you were doing was a pincha mayurasana which is sort of a flat armed redoing the flat armed hint. Are you just doing a straight handstand?

Emily Rodger  44:52  
I don't know what I do. Whatever I do scares me. 

Matt Cundill  44:55  
Yeah. And I think that's another thing depending on the type of yoga you do are the props. So there's blocks, there's, you know, sometimes there's there's a belt, like a rope is a word just so you can help yourself. There's some pads or some blankets, you know, using the props. They're there. So when you're doing any form of work, use the props that you're given to help out whatever it is that you're doing. 

Emily Rodger  45:22  
And what beautiful metaphor and that for anything that we're doing, like what what props are out there to help us what support system is out there to help us.

Matt Cundill  45:32  
I don't ask for nearly enough help. I was taught, I was actually mentioning about the pivoting you know, people need help with video. Well, I'm gonna go find video help. I, you know, I can't be able to sit and to do video work I do. I've learned to do some video work you know, sometimes I'll edit maybe this particular podcast and maybe edit this video. But to do some more specific stuff, or the stuff that people really want these days is pretty, it's pretty interesting. So I'm not sure I'm the right person to do it, especially being Gen X. I'm over 50 and if you roll back to what, you know what were like, it was all very refined television, it was kind of perfect. And then Millennials came along and then they were shooting something a little bit different, a little more easygoing, and now the Gen Z's are upon us. And they don't care what they put up. They'll shoot anything with a camera and it just goes right up and most people around 50 and older, they're a little conscious about what it looks like and what it sounds like. And if it's not perfect, there'll be uncomfortable with it and I'm uncomfortable that so I'm looking to, you know, hire people who understand video a little bit younger and to sort of, you know, help me unlearn what is ingrained in me. 

Dave Veale  46:41  
Greg Hemmings is someone when you should reach out to him. He knows the medium pretty well. He's not he's not much younger. He's fabulous guy.

Matt Cundill  46:55  
I believe he's coming up as a guest. Is that correct? 

Dave Veale  46:57  
That is correct. is yeah talking about a free flow conversation. We're not about not being perfect and just rolling with it.

Emily Rodger  47:05  
 He's got a lot of Gen Z in him.

Dave Veale  47:07  
He does yeah. That's a good point. That's a very yeah, for being a Gen X guy.

Emily Rodger  47:12  
That's right. Yeah. Well, Matt, this has been phenomenal. I just appreciate you. You are yeah, like Dave pointed out, you're so so humble, you're just cool to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the Boiling Point for working with us for being a part of our little team and getting our message and our podcast out into the world and to all of our listeners and so we're going to list all of Matt's information and any of the extras that we have discussed in the show in the show notes, including where you can find Matt and hire him to also help you like he helped us helps us and the best place to find all of that is on our website at boilingpointpodcast.com. We are active on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter and we put the video versions on YouTube and Facebook. And of course, the podcast is available on all of your favorite podcast platform.

Dave Veale  48:11  
And just a quick shout out like I'm just experiencing real time this platform and what you're doing and the cameras coming in and out and all these things that we haven't seen before Emily I haven't seen before maybe you have I don't know. And then like a little scrolling across the bottom for people that are watching the video. Very cool. Like it's just like kind of blown away. Just experiences having not seen this before. So love the conversation and thanks for working with me through the technology the the vigorous technology challenges that I've been constantly up against

Matt Cundill  48:51  
Every day for all of us. Don't worry about it.

Emily Rodger  48:54  
Yeah. Thank you for listening, follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app or visit boilingpoint podcast.com for more.