The Podcast Movement Review

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  0:01  
Music. Welcome to the podcast. Super Friends, five podcast producers from across North America get together to discuss podcasting.

Catherine O'Brien  0:13  
Hello everybody. Welcome to the podcast. Super Friends. Yes, we are some podcast producers who are ready to talk about podcasting. And one specific thing about podcasting, and that is Podcast Movement, the annual conference that many podcasters are tout every year as a place to go to learn more about podcasting. And in fact, for our podcast Super Friends audience, you should know this group has found its our forming story is actually with Podcast Movement. We'll get into that a little bit later, but first, let's invite the rest of the superhero friends in here. So we are talking about Podcast Movement. We all met at Podcast Movement. We had a variety of connections that we personally made at Podcast Movement. That's how this group came to be. Does anybody want to just weigh in on how that all came about. I

Jon Gay  1:02  
have to jump in first here, because it seems like there's a fire alarm every year at podcasting. But we did not have one in DC tradition, but we did have one in Orlando, I believe, in 2019 and that's where I found myself outside in the sweltering Orlando thunderstorm heat, randomly having a conversation with Johnny podcast before he was known as Johnny podcast. And that's sort of my, my foray into the group, as I recall it, right? Johnny, yeah, I think

Johnny Podcasts  1:24  
you're right. I think I was talking about, I think you walked up to me, you're like, did you say Logic Pro X or something like that? And just struck up a conversation. Oh, that's

Jon Gay  1:31  
a pickup line I use all the time. It worked. Well, you

Johnny Podcasts  1:33  
had me swooning. But then, Jack, yeah, you You introduced me to Catherine. I chatted with Catherine. Bree I think I met Catherine separately as well. Have

Unknown Speaker  1:43  
a story about

Unknown Speaker  1:44  
that. Well, go ahead.

Catherine O'Brien  1:46  
Oh, I'm sorry.

Johnny Podcasts  1:48  
I mean,

Catherine O'Brien  1:50  
so my Johnny podcast story is that every year that I went to Podcast Movement, you know, you trade business cards. That's a normal thing to do. And every single year, I would write a little email to people and say, hey, it was nice to meet you at Podcast Movement. Here I am. And you know, I started going to a Podcast Movement, pre Podcast Movement app, so this, this is critical to that story. You know, now you can make connections on the Podcast Movement app, but so I wrote a little email to every I never heard back from a soul. And it was just always like, Okay, we just never heard back from anybody. Then the the or the Orlando year before I even got a chance to send off emails, I got an email from John a podcast, saying, Hello, Catherine O'Brien, it was nice to talk to you specific location to make sure that I knew he remembered who I was. And I was like, this kid not only beat me at my own game, he did a better job at it. And that was the start of our friendship there.

Jon Gay  2:48  
And that was before Johnny was even old enough to drink. Yeah, was it? Oh, no.

Catherine O'Brien  2:55  
And then I also have to say, Matt was my very first Podcast Movement friend. That's that's for sure, 2017

Matt Cundill  3:02  
Anaheim, that's right, yeah. And then I met Jag. I didn't meet jag until 2022 and Johnny, for that matter, as well, in Dallas, right in Dallas. Yeah, I couldn't go to 2021 because of the pandemic. Was going to be a struggle to get across the border, so I just did that year online. But yeah, 2022 I realized that, you know, we'd all been doing a show, this show, together for at least a year, and I was like, Oh, we're all together. Wow. Okay,

Johnny Podcasts  3:33  
I'm surprised they're going back to Dallas. So soon, next year,

Jon Gay  3:36  
I believe one of the founders is based in Dallas, and it's in Dallas. Yeah, that makes I believe it's, I believe it's Dallas. 25 San Diego. 26 your original hometown, Johnny. Back to back, attendances and then, and then back to Orlando in 27

Catherine O'Brien  3:54  
poor New Orleans gets no love from Podcast Movement. We have, we're a convention city. I mean, they have conventions anyway, I

Johnny Podcasts  4:01  
think too many, too many of the attendees will drown in the swamps on their way over try to make it

Catherine O'Brien  4:05  
to alcohol. That is a consideration. These are all considerations to have. But so I bring that up to start us off, not only just to acknowledge that that's how the start of all of our relationship. Here is the podcast, Super Friends, but it I would say that I that is a testament to the networking possibilities that did, did exist at one time at Podcast Movement. And there are different levels of feedback that have been happening like there. But let's start on the on the bright side of things, I know that Matt, you put out your newsletter. By the way, everybody, if you're not signed up for Matt's newsletter. Get on that. And Jag. You put out a podcast episode for the JAG show, just giving away some of your biggest highlights or biggest takeaways from Podcast Movement. So let's start off with the good stuff. And Jag, I'll go to you first. What was your like? Your number one podcaster takeaway from Podcast Movement this year? Yeah.

Jon Gay  4:59  
I'm gonna quote one of your favorite people, Catherine, and that would be Mr. Tom Webster. Now it sounds profitable. I'm sure we'll quote him many times this episode, because he is the guy when it comes to a lot of this data and a lot of these analytics. You know, the big takeaway last year was YouTube, you need to have a strategy to be on YouTube. And while that's still true, something that Tom said in his keynote really struck me, and that was the analogy he made. Was when he was a kid and he got in trouble and he lied about it, and his mom would say, Don't make it worse. That was his point about YouTube. Don't make it worse if you cannot achieve the same quality that you're achieving in your audio podcast, don't put the video on YouTube. You can just put an audiogram up a still image, a static image, or the moving waveform, whatever, however you want to do it, but do not put up a video for the sake of putting up video, if you're going to have represent yourself poorly, or at least not as well as you're doing an audio that was my really something that really struck me so

Johnny Podcasts  5:57  
was the was the was the detail within that like you got to have nice cameras, you gotta invest in the thumbnails. The production level has to be there as a audio.

Jon Gay  6:05  
That's a fair question, Johnny, but I wouldn't want to intimidate anybody by saying yes to that. It's not a matter of it has to be pristine audio. I'm pristine video, excuse me, it has to at least match the production level of your audio. Is, you know what we're seeing right now with the four of us on webcams and regular microphones, this production would be just as good as the audio over the time Matt puts it out as a podcast, I would say, you know, the idea is, if you're gonna have, you know, blurry and terrible edits, don't do it. But as long as you're as long as you're having decent quality or, you know, and again, or in the audio is important the video as well, have the same audio quality, and then don't, don't make it look like a 15 year old did a jump, bunch of jump cuts in their bedroom.

Johnny Podcasts  6:46  
Okay, that's great clarification, because, yeah, when I, when I hear you, when I heard you say that, initially, I was like, Oh, if I was brand new starting out, well, I can't use my Logitech webcam. I can't, like, well, I have to go buy a digital, like, a, you know, a DSLR camera now and lighting and all this stuff. No, your jag is exactly correct. What we're doing all right now what you're watching is the most rudimentary entry level video podcast that you could do, which is totally fine, because we're not, you know, we're not spending money to, like, have all really nice cameras and lighting and cutting back and forth and, like, lower thirds and all that stuff. You can still do this, so don't, don't let that deter you. So thank you for the clarification. Yeah, I

Matt Cundill  7:25  
can make this worse.

David Yas  7:31  
Very fun. Welcome Dave.

Unknown Speaker  7:34  
That was great.

David Yas  7:35  
Hi Dave. Hello there. Sorry, I'm late, kids, good to be here. That's okay. Dave, yes, pod 617, Boston Podcast Network,

Catherine O'Brien  7:46  
great. And we'll be hearing from, we already started covered our origin story, David, and we'll be going hearing from the two gents about their Podcast Movement. We're just moving right now to Matt for his number one takeaway from Podcast Movement.

Matt Cundill  7:58  
And this kind of dovetails a touch off the video about, you know, not making it worse, but I think when you look at it, we're all doing a show. And I think Johnny's mentioned this before, is that we're not really podcasting anymore. We are doing doing a show. And, you know, people talk about their podcast, and gonna dovetail a little bit here to something else that Tom Webster said, and that's, you're doing a show or a podcast, but there's a lot of celebrities throughout there saying, Oh, I've got a podcast, but they're not really promoting it. It feels like a side hustle. And so for a lot of people, it's like they have a podcast. It would be great to have more stars talk about their podcast, and podcasting and elevating it, elevating it in terms of the way they sell it. And I think that goes for everybody. I think a lot of people do talk about, oh, I have a podcast, and it's a side hustle, and it's something else that I do. But, and I've said this many times, if this podcast is not the number one or two thing that you do, if podcasting in your ecosystem is not one or two, I don't really, it's really gonna counter really. It's gonna make an impact down the road. It's just something that you do on the side. You know, it's not really part of the whole ecosystem. So there's about three things in there that I thought were really, really important. We're not really doing a show, or we're not really podcasting anymore. We're doing a show. We need to elevate it and call it a show, make a big deal about it and sell it, and be great to get some more celebrities to to sell it as well. So it even goes so far as I know, Johnny's not going to know this, but back long time ago, Johnny, there was something called, you know, a got milk campaign. And got milk was to promote milk. And it's an industry, and, you know, I think it is time for podcasting to do a got milk, yeah, to promote milk, yeah, to promote podcasting as as a as a medium.

Johnny Podcasts  9:51  
Did you have any suggestions off of that, or was that just kind of Yeah? It was chew on it.

Matt Cundill  9:55  
It was celebrities, celebrities, yeah, wishing that celebrities would promote, um. Podcast, and podcasting better not talk about it as some sort of like side project. Interesting.

Catherine O'Brien  10:07  
Well, I wonder, too. And Matt, if you if there was any just helpful information that goes off of this too, is that celebrities, they have a natural audience, and I personally think that a lot of the celebrity podcasts that exist really play to that give more to those who want more type of audience is that people who are devotees of, let's just say, I don't know Oprah, they are going to listen to whatever she's doing because they are super fans. So so it's just that that gives them a little bit more they have an audience already. So those are the kinds of things that are going to be success elements for a celebrity podcast, whereas the average podcaster would not have those same things maybe built in. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  10:48  
and that came up a couple of times when people started talking about the advertising side of things. And, you know, again, because we've all been to Podcast Movement enough to know that if you don't have 25,000 downloads, well, you may as well close up shop, and that was happening again this year, but it was great to see that there were other people who did come by to say that's not necessarily the case. There's a lot of community building out there. Seth Ressler showed up to show what can be done with the community. He actually used the example of Podcast Movement itself being a community 50,000 60,000 strong in the Facebook groups and looking around the room and hey, you know what Podcast Movement is a community. You should be building your show and your podcast the way Podcast Movement does

Catherine O'Brien  11:32  
interesting. Good point. Jack, I know that in your show, your episode, you talked a lot about analytics. Let's, let's start peeling back the orange peel on that one and diving in, I

Jon Gay  11:42  
appreciate you asking the Syracuse grad to peel back the orange peel. So, and I'll defer, actually, a lot to Matt on this, because Dan Meisner formerly Pacific content now he has a platform called bumper, which I would highly encourage you check out Matt's interview with him in the sound off podcast, which we can link in the show notes, but it's the point about analytics is the download has been the standard for a long time, and it still really is the industry standard, but all download really tells you is a device went and grabbed your episode from your host via Apple Spotify, web, whatever it is, it doesn't really tell you how much of the podcast they listen to, or if they even listen to it. And if you dive into your apple podcast connect dashboard, or your Spotify for podcasters dashboard, there is a treasure trove of information in there about what we would call in radio TSL, time spent listening, the amount of time that folks spent with your podcast, also in your YouTube analytics as well. It's going to show you, did they start listening to it? How long did they listen, if and when they dropped off? And that is going to give you a lot more data about your audience, about your content, in terms of what's performing well and what's performing not well. There's so much there, and Dan's new platform bumper has a way to aggregate all that data and easy to use dashboards with that. I'll kick it back over to Matt.

Matt Cundill  13:05  
So I'm going to make an attempt here to share my screen, because I can share the bumper dashboard with everybody. And this did, can you guys see that? Yep. Okay, good. So this did come up a number of times where the metrics discussion did come up that, you know, downloads are a great form of currency to, you know, set a standard between ad buyers and those who are selling ads. But really, let's really look at the time spent listening, going through the show, right? So that's maybe a metric that needs to come about. Now, all this data is available in your Spotify for podcasters and your apple podcast connect and in the back in YouTube, but it hasn't really been aggregated and dead. Dan created this, this dashboard here, which you know you can grab an episode. I'll just use the one that I did with Dan. And if you can see that, you can see that people listen to 70% of the show on Apple, 65% on Spotify, and 16% of it via YouTube, you can see the drop off points as well in here for for Apple and Spotify. So this is another way to really be looking at your show and really be counting So, and I think the people at bumper really wanted to go into Podcast Movement and get the narrative talking about how we measure our show. It is just more than downloads. Downloads are nice. It's what I sort of equate to Q in radio terms, you know, cumulative, you know, activity. But this is really the equivalent in radio of time spent listening and how much time people are spending with your podcast. So I'm excited for this, and I hope that most people Left Podcast Movement, thinking in terms of, you know, the time spent listening with with the shows.

Catherine O'Brien  14:46  
And David, I know that at one point you brought to our group the sort of the idea that you read a great piece that somebody written about consumption, and starting to look more along the lines of consumption and not so much the down. Do you have any thoughts about that in light of some of these? I'm glad

David Yas  15:03  
you brought it up, because, yeah, I noticed something that well, for example, the Apple podcast analytics page tracks plays, p l, a, play, p l, a, y, s, as a contrast to downloads, and then it also has a percentage number for the average consumption of each episode. Now the plays are going to be a number that's a lot bigger than the downloads number. So I confess at the time I stumbled upon this, I thought downloads really meant plays like click. I think those do, yeah, yeah, and apparently not, unless you guys can weigh in on this if you interpret it differently. But you know, it would make sense that if you have a someone who's subscribed to your following your podcast, like on Apple, they may or may not have the download function turned on right so they may listen to it and actually, actually, not technically download it. So stream it, I

Johnny Podcasts  16:05  
think is what Matt would call it,

David Yas  16:08  
right stream, as opposed to progressive

Matt Cundill  16:10  
stream. There are no streams in podcasting, progressive download.

David Yas  16:17  
But, yeah, but I mean, according to Apple, the number of the plays is number of plays on unique devices where the play duration is greater than zero seconds. Okay, so that means, at very least they clicked on it and listened to part of it, which is, you know, it's, it's useful and it, I think most people will discover if they look at the numbers, they drill down into the numbers that you find on Apple podcasts and on Spotify. You know, you'll have a little bit more to brag about. You'll have a little bit more idea of how many people are actually listening to the show. So, Catherine, I don't know if that's kind of what you had when you well, and I

Catherine O'Brien  16:57  
I think too, that overall, there's, there possibly is, and possibly should be some frustration over the lack of clarity on these sort of basic things, especially when smaller podcasts are reliant on valuable information here,

David Yas  17:17  
yeah, for sure. Now, Matt, I'm sorry to jump back a sec, but the presentation that you saw in the in the in from the dashboard you shared on your screen a moment ago is that meant to capture the podcast on all platforms

Matt Cundill  17:35  
only, Apple, Spotify and YouTube.

David Yas  17:39  
Okay, well, I

Johnny Podcasts  17:41  
mean that that's YouTube versus not YouTube music, right, correct. Okay, that's pretty valuable. It is,

David Yas  17:46  
yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely valuable because, because, up until you know when I have something, if you have something like that, you can get a more, like you said, a more global view of how the cop podcast is doing up until now. I felt like, you know you could go to Apple podcasts, you can go to Spotify, but you're talking about different listeners, different group of listeners, so and different metrics. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I hope I don't know who to lobby for this, but I wish someone would sort of win the the analytics game. Yeah, and we could just go to one place.

Jon Gay  18:17  
Yeah, that's the idea behind this bumper platform, right? Man, yeah,

Matt Cundill  18:20  
at least you've got some real listeners doing some real listening, and we can sort of see from that real listening what the behavior is, and that's pretty valuable. I mean, there did come. I mean, Jeff Fiddler was on a panel where I think he had some ad buyers talking, and at one point, it's like, oh, what's your wish? And it's like, well, we wish we could, you know, somebody could win the day with the analytics side of things, but that would mean that there's a lot of big companies that would have to give that up, and we know that's not going to happen. But what really sets me off doesn't take much, of course, but there was one thing that sort of really set me off, and that's the comparison that these ad buyers make to radio and television in radio in places like Oxnard, California, they're using a diary to people are writing down what they listen to. Could you imagine if we were trying to tally up podcast downloads by what we what we remember listening to in the last week, by writing it down in a diary and putting it in the mail? I mean, that's what radio is, is for a big chunk of America. And, you know, the rest of it is what you really hear with a People Meter, a pager type thing on the hip that, you know, people aren't really listening. They're just sort of coming into contact with it. I mean, that's bizarre that that people would have that, that sort of wish and television, are you in the room, or are you making a sandwich? We don't really know.

Jon Gay  19:41  
We don't know. And not to mention the sample size I know here in Detroit, with when they had the people meters, if my memory serves market, of 1.5 to 2 million people. And they had 1500 meters that they weighted the numbers, and had 1/10 of 1% of people walking around with these meters. And they use that to, you know. Calculate the ratings for the entire market of 2 million

Unknown Speaker  20:02  
people, don't

Catherine O'Brien  20:04  
they always say that, even with the diaries, they'd say, you represent, you know, X number of people with your your listening?

Jon Gay  20:10  
Yeah, here's your dollar to fill it out. Yeah. Very

Catherine O'Brien  20:13  
crisp dollar. I got one of those one time. Very cool, Matt. Can you talk about some of the fundamentals that are always a evergreen part of Podcast Movement, some of the the tried and true themes that that come through for for podcasters, yeah,

Matt Cundill  20:30  
the IR party, no,

Jon Gay  20:34  
oh, yeah. Dinner? Was that a different night?

Matt Cundill  20:37  
No, we were. We were at dinner, but it was, they all went golfing this year. So there's, there's generally a, you know, a fun party that

Jon Gay  20:44  
it was top golf, which isn't really, you know, yeah, that's a different

Catherine O'Brien  20:48  
that's fun, come on.

Matt Cundill  20:51  
I mean, I think one of the things Podcast Movement is, is kind of struggling with right now, is, and by the way, has anybody been to evolutions?

Jon Gay  20:59  
Considering going in, going in, going in March, because it's in Chicago. It's close by.

Matt Cundill  21:04  
Yeah? So like, what's the difference between them? If

Catherine O'Brien  21:07  
you gave me a crisp dollar to describe the difference between Podcast Movement and Podcast Movement evolutions, I would not collect that dollar. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  21:15  
Well, evolutions is supposed to be a little bit more businessy, but this is really fairly businessy. And so the exhibitor floor, I think, over the last couple of years, and I can't remember if this was, if they were doing this in Dallas, maybe they started, I think, in Denver, which is where they put the rooms, or at least the speaking sessions, in and around the exhibit area, so that people are going to be crisscrossing the floor to check out the exhibit area. This year, the exhibit area was smaller, although they did solve, and jag did point out that they did solve the problem of ambient noise in the room. So everybody got a pair of headphones in order to listen, which I thought was a good addition, although I did hear back that somebody on the stage was like, Are these people listening to us? Are they catching a ball game like it's it's still, it still feels like there's a bit of a wall between the two. But the

Jon Gay  22:01  
irony, by the way, these the headphones, are provided by a company called silence, so their logo is on the ears, so there's a big earpiece that says silence that I'm like, is that a mute button? Is that it says silence on it? But it was, it was a much welcome addition to the conference, for sure. Yeah, um,

Matt Cundill  22:16  
here's something that that is a trend that's bothering me, and that's who's on the floor. And so less exhibitors on the floor. There's about 4748 some odd, but Disney wasn't there this year. Thumbs up. There were puppies always, yeah, but Spotify again, off in a back room, and the back room was done by Thursday, and you had to have a special appointment, allegedly, ABC, Disney, was off in a back room, you know, out of sight, out of mind, and there was a few others who were, you know, off in other rooms, and the floor is empty. But you know, for any creator who goes in there and sees Spotify, wouldn't you? Wouldn't that be the first place that you would want to go and say, hey, my podcast is on Spotify. What you got going on here? You know? ESPN, like, oh, I want to be the next Colin cow herd. Or I want, well, not, yeah, or nothing works. ESPN, but I want to be the next, you know, sports talk star Disney, maybe you have a pitch. Hey, is there anybody I could talk to at Disney about my podcast? But no, they're out of sight, out of mind, and I think that's really bad. That's not good for podcasting.

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  23:38  
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Catherine O'Brien  23:50  
you used a word creators. Do you think that are signs pointing to Podcast Movement being for creators? I think that that's one of the sort of critiques that I saw on Twitter was, who is Podcast Movement for these days? Do you think that's fair? Jag,

Jon Gay  24:09  
I think it's a bit of a double edged sword. Because yes, there were a lot of complaints that. And I think Matt had said this to me offline previously, that folks were saying that Philadelphia in 2018 was peak Podcast Movement, because a lot of money was being thrown around a lot of independent creators. That was actually the first one I went to, so I got a great first impression. But the podcast industry has grown. It's $2 billion a year in 2024 so there's a little bit when there's pushback saying, Oh, it's too corporate. There's too many big companies there. And there's a little bit of, well, do you want the industry to grow or not? So I would, I would, in Catherine's phrasing, lovingly counterpoint the fact that there, when people come back against that, that said it did feel a little bit more big company, a little bit more corporate. There were definitely independent creators there as attendees. But I didn't feel there were a lot of. Tuned to these. I felt like a lot of the panels were geared toward, okay, well, how are you going to make you know, what's the best way to sell ads and do analytics and a couple of Well, I'm just going to call them out. One sponsor stage in particular, ausha, which is a podcasting host for the second year in a row. And I don't know if they bought this level of sponsorship or not so, so I don't speak out of class here, but it seemed that most panels I went to on their stage were a promotion for ausha, the sponsor, as opposed to informative about podcasting for attendees that living with a bad taste in my mouth.

Johnny Podcasts  25:32  
Well, it's interesting is they have to find a balance between a lot of different things. Of we have to appeal to the corporations who want to pay to make this event happen, and the corporations pay to attend to make this event happen, so that they can attend, so they can potentially sell their products to creators who are whether that be people who are producers that use podcasting tools, or whether that's hosts who are creating their podcasts and would see use from whatever these people are selling. But then on the same token Podcast Movement, then now has to appeal to creators of, hey, please come so that. One, you can learn a ton about podcasting. But two, also be canon, not canon fodder. That's a terrible word. But like the customers, potentially to make the investment that these corporations are making happen, it's a huge dance that they all have to do. And, you know, I've only attended two podcast movements, but from, you know, from Dallas, the vibe that I got from being there in person was, this is really geared towards a sort of social corporate event where people who work for these podcasting companies can come and kind of just, you know, mess around for a few days in Dallas. That was the vibe that I got, like,

Jon Gay  26:41  
a boondoggle, almost, yeah,

David Yas  26:42  
that's if I could. Yeah, if I could. Thank you. Catherine, I wanted to ask, particularly Matt, a real question for everybody, I guess. But is there room for another podcast movement? A different, a different,

Jon Gay  26:56  
let's start a new movement. But podcast Super Friends movement, well,

David Yas  26:59  
I mean, Johnny, what you said, I think, is right. It's dominated by, you know, where the money is in podcasting. And so you end up hearing a lot about the how I got to 10,000 downloads per episode, or whatever. And that's really, you know, in a way, the majority, the minority of podcasters. And many podcasts, many podcasters, most podcasters will not get up to even 300 downloads per episode, and that still may be perfectly fine for them. For their purpose. You know that they're the it's not necessarily a vehicle to get as much numbers as you can so you could get monetized. The thing you know, maybe you're a professional, you're a lawyer, you're a investment advisor, you want it as a compliment to the other things by which you market your services and products. And so that's the one thing that I don't know if there's if that could ever actually happen, but it's almost like there should be two tracks, because there's still a lot to learn about best practices and how to put together a podcast for someone that just will never skyrocket into that upper echelon.

Matt Cundill  28:03  
So there's a lot there. So a couple things. I have heard some people say that they really enjoy the London podcast show, and a lot of people, and that's what I'm sort of thinking about. So I just put the link in for everybody to have a look if they want, as being something that, if you're looking for something a little bit fresher, there is podfest still out there, which has its own um, which has its own following as well. But I guess my advice is, is to look around at what's in your area and locally, at some of the events that you can, you know, maybe drive to that are happening that are one day only. So I know in Toronto, they did one that sort of dovetailed off Radio Days North America. That was was closed. There's one coming up in Calgary on September 15. I know that nobody here can necessarily drive to that. But there are things that are that are out there that, if you search for them, that you may be able to to network and and, you know, get together with other creators to do it

Catherine O'Brien  29:01  
funny, slash, fascinatingly enough. Podcast Movement started out of meetups. The pod podfest in Orlando also started out of meetups that these were, these were meetup events for podcasters in regional areas. And from those, both of those conferences grew. So can I take a little bit I mean, talking

Matt Cundill  29:19  
about the number of creators, we're not, it's sort of nobody goes and says, Oh, I'm a creator, or I'm just starting out. We don't really know where the level is. I mean, it wasn't like Catherine when we were there in 2017 I think pretty much all of us were, you know, creators in some form. It was more complicated to do a network. But, you know, as time has progressed, and I think that, I think that progress is a big part of what we look and define as creators. You've got five of us here who are doing the legwork for creators. So we're taking those people out of the mix who are going to go to, I don't need to go to Podcast Movement, because Matt and jag are going to go and he's going to get together, get together soon. For friends, and they're all going to share the knowledge. And the other thing is, how easy we market being making a podcast is. It's so easy to make a podcast, why would I need to go to a podcast show to make up to learn how to make a podcast? Because it's so easy to do I can go for free on Spotify. Oh, look. Descript makes it easy. Everything has been made so easy. Now we know the end result of what happens when everything is made easy. It's generally some funny, funny sounding audio and an RSS feed that gets broken and stuff isn't in the right place, and stuff like that. But we have marketed this to be such an easy venture that I guess there's a lot of creators who probably don't feel the need to go and then on the flip side, those who would probably take a look at it would look at the price and go, I don't think so.

Jon Gay  30:46  
Yeah, look to your point, Matt, what for me, selfishly, one of the reasons, one of my main priorities going every year, is to find out what's going on in the industry, what's trending, and report back to my clients, put it in my podcast, send it to my clients, and go from there. So for me, selfishly, that's why I go to sort of represent my clients and find out what I can tell them for best practices.

Catherine O'Brien  31:06  
I know that that's one of the reasons I went, for the years that I did, is it was because I wanted to be, I still do want to be an expert in my field, and this is my field, so this that why that is the kind of information that I wanted to receive there, but it's, it is hard to serve two masters. And Johnny really broke those two down. There are, you know, as is both, as everybody here knows, I love to say there's two worlds of podcasting. There is the the big podcasting world, and then there's the everyday podcast creators, and there is not a lot of overlap. And to David's point earlier, who is, who is where the the smaller creator, is pushed more and more to be really like a DIY, er, than, than some of these other people. But then for whom is this conference set up? It's kind of like a weird, uh, catch 22 there.

Johnny Podcasts  32:00  
Well, Jack, okay, so you went in with the mindset, do you feel like you got that?

Jon Gay  32:04  
Yeah, again. So Katherine asked me about earlier. Again, my main takeaways are about the analytics and YouTube and then also, like, you know, as a business owner working in the field, you know it's good to press the flesh with folks that I deal with all year long. It's always great to see Matt in person and his partner, Avery, and then also it's, you know, it's a chance to walk up to the descript and squad cast booth and talk to them, because I email them for tech support all year long. It's nice to go folks, see the the tech guys from simple cast that I email all year long. It's just nice and and they recognize me and came up to me, which is great customer service on their part. So it's good for me to sort of meet the folks that I'm dealing with all year long, and then be able to have a drink with the folks that I care to have a drink with so but, but, you know, does it feel a little different than it did when I first started going six years ago, probably, but I still feel, for me personally, I get something out of it. Does every small, independent podcaster goes, get something out of it. I don't know. I'd encourage you to go. If it's in your town, you have to worry about airfare in a hotel. But what I encourage you to travel for it, if you're a small, independent podcaster, I don't know.

Matt Cundill  33:09  
Yeah, same,

Catherine O'Brien  33:14  
yeah, even, even Matt and I know you did not mean it this way, but like, just hearing like, oh, the London podcast event is, you know, is really great and kind of has some, maybe some more meat for the the independent podcaster. Well, now you know, now we're talking about international travel to go, to go to, to this event, especially when you know, like I noticed, so I started the first podcast movement I went to was the second ever Podcast Movement, and I'm again, Philadelphia, there was a turning. There was absolutely a turning point where I realized, oh, other people are not paying for this hotel travel entry fee on their own. Their companies are paying for them. So I saw that. I saw that kind of switch. I saw just the expense, the locations, all those kinds of things we're all switching just a little bit, and those, those little tells that we have.

Johnny Podcasts  34:12  
But it is a good point that Matt made earlier. It's like, well, what do we want? You know, do we want to just keep it exclusive to where it's like, it's just the person recording from their from their bedroom, like, that's only who it's for. Because if we don't, if that's how they how they keep it, then podcasting can't grow. And I know that a big part of the sounds profitable presentation, the big, kind of main takeaway, was that, like, podcasting has hit the mainstream. So this is sort of the natural evolution of what happens when something like this becomes a part of, you know, global culture and people, everyone's doing it now. So it does make sense. And maybe the solution is Podcast Movement becomes, maybe evolution's pivots to where Podcast Movement movement is sort of the sort of corporate me. Up industry hangout versus evolutions becomes, hey, this is the Creator track. I know they have the actual Creator track at podcast movements, but this is like, really geared towards. These are for people who are either working independently in the industry as a producer or someone who is a host. And the whole goal is to be like, how do we make a better podcast outside of technical tools, and

Catherine O'Brien  35:22  
we'll use this as our segue to talk about some of the things presented, but from sounds profitable and but let me just say this too, I felt a pivot which is different than podcasting grow. Podcasters growing to this new level. It was definitely a shift. It was not like, hey, this industry is growing, and you can, you independent podcasters, can grow with us. It was really much more of a shift that kind of caught me off guard, because I thought we were all along for the ride.

Matt Cundill  35:49  
Was that, was that 2018 in Philly? PHIL Yeah,

Catherine O'Brien  35:53  
I was, I use Philadelphia as like, that was the, that was the turning point. But

Matt Cundill  35:57  
that's just a lot of East Coast people. That's, I mean, if you it is, if you put it in Philadelphia, you're gonna get people are gonna take the train from Baltimore, Washington and New York, who are gonna come in and Boston and Boston, yeah, they're gonna come in quick. They can, they can stay for the day and just get a one day pass. And we did see that in DC that people were coming in and, hey, somebody, I need a my train's arriving at 930 can somebody, you know, share, share an Uber with me to the hotel. There was a little bit more of that. And I did find that when we were in Denver last year that I had two clients from Colorado who could easily come into the show. So I think, I think putting it in the East Coast, I knew going in, it was going to be different. Washington is the home of NPR, and even though they had the Democratic National Convention at the same time, NPR managed to send a bunch of people and have a nice, big boost set up. So that's an easy one. You know, there's an expression saying podcast for Virginia. I don't know what it is about Virginia, Virginia and podcasting, but there's a lot of big podcasts that, you know, the big political podcasts all sort of get consumed in that area. But, you know, the region matters a lot about where this is held. It it matters a lot. Airfares matter a lot. You put it in the West Coast, you get a whole different set of people, right?

Catherine O'Brien  37:15  
I mean, there was a reason evolutions wasn't it always in Los Angeles or Vegas.

Jon Gay  37:19  
It was always west coast, yeah. And now going Chicago, which is interesting.

Catherine O'Brien  37:24  
Oh, interesting. That's interesting. All right, let's as I promised. Let's segue to let sounds profitable. And Johnny, you have some slides that you're going to be showing us here, and some of the valuable information this, this expertise that we're all craving here.

Johnny Podcasts  37:37  
I sent them to mad so like, while we were kind of doing our intros. I skimmed through the sounds profitable presentation, anything that jumped off the page at me. I sent over to Matt. Matt, I don't know if you want to pull them up, just things that I found interesting, because, one, I wasn't there for it, so just reading it for the first time, stopping listening. I feel like it's something that we don't really like to talk about. Why would anyone ever not listen to my podcast? I'm so amazing. My show is so incredible, but people do drop off. It's not just within an episode. People will stop listening to your show altogether. And so I'm really happy that this was something that they tracked losing interest in the show. That's not super specific, but it is the number one reason. Interest in the topic, that's not really something that you can avoid. If this is something that you're an expert in, you're going to churn listeners. That's just going to happen. I've never stopped listening to a podcast. I thought that was really interesting as the third largest metric. I've never stopped listening. That means that if your show is sticky and you get people to come in, it's likely that they may not leave. So this isn't something that you should be losing sleep over, but it is something that you should keep in the back of your mind. Is there? You know, just because a listener comes in does not mean you have them subscribe to you for life, they will go away. So be gentle. Be you know, be careful with the audience that you're cultivating that you're building up. Because, you know, if you start to take them for granted, they have absolutely nothing stopping them from listening to a gazillion other options out there, too many ads in general. I thought that that that was really interesting at 15% that's something that we kind of have to dance around. We chatted about that on our last episode with the various podcasts that we discussed just being pumped full of the dynamic ad insertions. That is a great way to just get people out of your content. See also radio. See also radio. Yeah, and I remember when they would start advertising we've got an hour, an hour of ad free music, and somehow an ad or two still seem to slip in there. Every so often it's

Jon Gay  39:47  
an hour of ad free music brought to you by Mattress Firm. Yeah, exactly.

Johnny Podcasts  39:53  
Better podcasts on the same topic. I mean, we, there are people that are going to be in your same in your. Same wheelhouse. How are you going to separate yourself from the rest of the pack? It's just really interesting stuff. I feel like that. That one really stood out to me, just because I don't think people talk about that enough. Why? What is it when I go through my content? Yes, I'm recording it and I'm doing it. But is there anything in here? Is there any reason why someone would stop listening to this?

Matt Cundill  40:19  
You wanted to get the other slide,

Johnny Podcasts  40:21  
sure, unless anyone has any other thoughts on that. 1321, nope, go to the next one. Okay, this big red box is the one that jumped out to me. What reason would cause you to listen to podcasts again? I don't know if this was geared towards like listen to a specific podcast or just listen to podcasts in general.

Matt Cundill  40:39  
That was for those, those who had buggered off podcasting so

Johnny Podcasts  40:43  
nothing and more free time. It's the one of the things that is two podcasts detriment, especially in the world that we live in now with Tiktok and reels and YouTube shorts, is that we're providing long form content to people like when people say, what's the average podcast like we're talking the pool of clients that we play, and we're looking at 45 minutes to an hour to an hour and a half, maybe shorter, around 30 minutes. But even 30 minutes, that's a whole episode of a series on a show that you're sitting down and committing to watching, and that is a huge time commitment, so I don't know, it just made me think about the idea of you just have your content just has to be so good to get someone to give up their most valuable asset, which is their time. And it was just interesting that more free time was the number one reason why people would jump on again. Yeah.

Matt Cundill  41:34  
And I think everybody sort of found this a little bit alarming, because the number had gone up so much over a year ago. So the base of the question was, for those who ever listened to podcasts and don't know if they were ever going to listen again, and what could make you It was nothing. And I think Tom Webster got to the end of the presentation, but he did, sort of, you know, get an understanding for he figures a lot of people are just scrolling and they're bored. They're scrolling, they're scrolling through things, and they are bored. So it's really sort of speaks to the, not necessarily, innovation, but, you know, I guess creative innovation that you know, what are the subject matter? What are we putting out? What? What are we asking people to listen to? And

Johnny Podcasts  42:16  
on a certain level, it kind of gives me a sense of relief of, what is it going to take to get someone to get someone to listen to my podcast? Nothing great. That means I can try a bunch of different things. I can be super creative and super open and do essentially whatever I want and exactly what I want to do, not, oh, the industry and the data says that I have to do this to get someone to listen to my show.

Catherine O'Brien  42:36  
Well, Johnny, if I can pop in here too. Like, what? Matt? Just the word just came up innovation, that that's, I think that's a word that a lot of podcasters are hungry for, because we do hear some of these things over and over again. And to be able to experiment and do something different would be encouraging, especially if you, you know, if you know your audience so well, and you you can try and think of something that would be satisfying to the to the person who is going to listen to you. That would be, you know, that's great, rather than worrying about the person who's never going to come back.

Johnny Podcasts  43:05  
The last thing I'll say on this slide here is an actual, tangible idea that you, the listener, can take away from this. You're probably going, okay, great. This is all super superficial, fluffy stuff. Give me something if you want to take away from the data and implement it into your podcast right now, what are we looking at as the number one reason? Number one reason to get someone to listen again? More free time? How can we give that person more free time? Make your episode shorter. I don't want to make my episode shorter. What else can I do? I'm seeing more and more podcasts not do shorts. They're doing their full episode and they're giving medium posts. So if we look at an hour long podcast, you could probably break that into 610 minute topic segments. Pick the best one of those six, release 10 minutes of your episode where it's condensed down, not of the entire episode, just of what you think is the greatest hit of that episode. You can throw that onto your same feed. You can create a separate YouTube channel for it. I'm seeing that happen a lot more of people finding the balance between the full episode and the short a Medium post. Okay, this one, I love limited series. I think it's just a great way for people who don't feel like they have the time to commit to podcasting but want to still have a podcast to their name. I found this really interesting is when you finish a limited series, do you listen? Do you look for another podcast to listen to? 74% of people said yes. We are looking for, yeah, another limited series, podcast to listen to. Now I don't know if that's within the same topic or whether that's just another series in general. That just means that there are people who are hunting for this kind of content. So this should encourage you to consider a limited series. If you don't want to commit the time to doing a podcast every week or every month, or just something that's continuous, but you want to do sort of just a project, and have be able to say, I have a podcast actually, it's six episodes, you should go check it out. There are people out there looking for that. Kind of stuff. And you can get really niche with the content. You can get really specific. The best one that I've ever listened to is Dr death. That was just an amazing limited series podcast, and I absolutely loved it. And I do remember after finish, finishing listening to it, going, oh, I need another one of those. Give me more. Give

Matt Cundill  45:15  
me more. Give me more. So the noteworthy flag on this though, is that the answer for no has gone up. So again, we're sort of left with this thing of, when you finish something, do you go for something else, and the no has come back again. I think people just go back to scrolling, yeah. Or they go do something. Maybe they go look for additional content about that limited series somewhere else on the internet that doesn't involve a podcast. But the no is, Hmm, what's going on there?

Catherine O'Brien  45:42  
David, do you? Do you have these conversations with your clients about limited series as being an option or something to consider?

David Yas  45:51  
Yeah, but again, I think typically, the limited series are fall into the universe of podcasts that aren't really our universe. And though we though, you know, we can learn about listener habits this way, but I wouldn't, you know limited series. I mean, if a financial advisor is going to do a limited series on the six, six episodes each about retirement planning, and it's kind of a curriculum, and this isn't that, you know, but I just, I find it, I find it interesting. And anybody says, No, I mean, this goes this is the whole world we're in. People now are thinking about podcasts the same way they think about whatever they just binged on Netflix. You know, the light we've talked about this, the lines are getting blurrier and blurrier. In fact, Dr death, the podcast you just mentioned, turned into a series. So, so there are, it'll be interesting to see over the next, you know, you know, 10 years or so, how that phenomenon continues. I know when I need something new. Usually, what do I do? I might look on Facebook, on a group about either podcasts or bit of what to binge on TV. I might just click on my TV. And you know, your TV always has suggestions for you, no matter, you know, depending on what streaming service you're on. And I'd love to see more of that for podcasting. You know, at one point I tried to make a bold prediction that you were going to see a lot more podcasts on your smart TVs. And jag was like, it's already on. There.

Jon Gay  47:29  
It is ot TV,

David Yas  47:32  
but there's still. It's still pretty rare, but I think we'll, I think we will see more of that. So that was kind of a ramble. No, Dave,

Johnny Podcasts  47:37  
you hit on. Like, what is the number one thing that both creators and businesses alike are concerned about, which is discoverability. That is the one just magic thing that people are trying to crack is like, how do you create that Instagram or YouTube or x style feed where I can just get cure podcast kind of served up to me that really fit my interests, yeah?

David Yas  48:03  
And if you have, you know, I mean, say you do a podcast on, I don't know Shakespeare, right? And I'm using that example because there's the podcast that I produce that if I bring it up, everyone's gonna make fun of me. So I'm talking part of the lore. Yeah. This

Catherine O'Brien  48:19  
is the only this is the reason I asked this question, is so that you could bring this show. Oh, this is why inside

Jon Gay  48:25  
joke for our regular consumers,

Catherine O'Brien  48:29  
our dear audience members, yes. David, no. The

David Yas  48:33  
point I'm trying to make is not just that I have a podcast, music podcast called past tense,

Unknown Speaker  48:42  
top 10 time machine. But

David Yas  48:44  
I what I'd love to do is for how do I get that podcast in front of, like, every message board about music podcasts? I mean, you can do it, but I know you guys have probably tried this in the past. If you try to go on Facebook and advertise your podcast on there. It's hit or miss. A lot of these groups will be like, ask you 10 questions before you join the group. And then we'll say, Sorry we don't allow self promotion. Well, you know, the people are going to this group to learn about music podcasts. Do you think maybe I could recommend a music podcast? So I would love to know the best ways to, you know? I mean, if I one way is find the best music podcasts that are out there and then try me to get featured as a guest on their podcast and and share their audience. That's an obvious one. But short of that, I'd love to know more ways of doing it on social media, because there is, there's certainly one way to do this.

Matt Cundill  49:38  
So that was discussed actually a Podcast Movement. I mean, just, you know, the cross promos and collaborating with other podcasters using refonic.com/graph, what? And then go, you can go and put your you can put your podcast in there and find podcasts that are like yours, that you're. Listeners are already, you know, frequenting and checking out, and be able to collaborate with those people. Which also brings me to the the show promo that Steven Goldstein talked about audio promos, and how important that they are and that they're, it's, it's easy, easy stuff to do promo swaps and just get your your promo out there. You're gonna be hearing a lot about that in the in the next little while as well.

Catherine O'Brien  50:24  
So to coin a phrase, you may also like,

David Yas  50:29  
yeah, right, exactly. Wait. Is, isn't that a website in a podcast only?

Matt Cundill  50:32  
It's a podcast by me,

Unknown Speaker  50:35  
it is. Yes.

Matt Cundill  50:37  
You may also like dotnet, but it's funny, my I have podcast aspirations as well, and I've got two limited series sitting in my top drawer that I just haven't gotten around to or just can't really get but the next two podcast projects for me personally are both limited series,

David Yas  50:54  
really, oh, I can't wait to hear how that develops. We'll

Catherine O'Brien  50:58  
be updating our audience on all the developments. There any other slides you wanted to share with us? Johnny,

Johnny Podcasts  51:04  
yes, there were actually a few more. Oh, boy, let's

Jon Gay  51:06  
get to it. Tick tock. Sorry,

Matt Cundill  51:07  
I'll call the right button. There

Johnny Podcasts  51:09  
we go through them quickly. Okay. Is this 46 okay, this is the one thing we've been hitting on for years. Guys, YouTube, YouTube, YouTube. Where are you finding podcasts? YouTube has cracked because they have the algorithm of, how do I serve up crap that people want to see? It's the podcast. So again, like jag said at the beginning, if you can get your your content level up to the par or the standard that your audio podcast is, highly recommend getting it on YouTube. You've heard me say it once you've heard me say it 10,000 times. Searching on the internet, there's nothing like people forget about good old SEO. If your podcast is niche enough, and your podcast says good SEO, people are searching around for podcasts about podcasting. Ideally, ours would show up at the top with the JAG show. With the JAG show, exactly we can go into the next one. I uh, personal recommendations. This is essentially the same slide. I

Jon Gay  52:08  
think he was just highlighting YouTube there. Oh,

Johnny Podcasts  52:10  
okay, okay. Uh, types of social media posts that drive discovery. I saw it on the social media feed of someone I follow. So like David was saying earlier, we're talking promotion, paid promotion, getting someone to shout out your podcast, sponsored, advertised post. Other the other thing really interests me, because something that I think that and my wife has been good on me about this for years, because this is the industry that she works in, is programmatic advertising, so specific ads placed on the internet that are not social media for people to discover your podcast. And that's based on some kind of woo, woo technology that she's tried to explain to me 1000 times.

Jon Gay  52:47  
Johnny, if I could jump in for a second, yes, that's 64% I saw it on the social media feed of someone I know that's that's not paid. We should underscore this. This is just somebody posting, hey, I love this podcast, which speaks to recommendations of friends and family are huge, whether it's old school word of mouth or new school social media, like, if you this is why it is such a better call to action to ask your audience to share this episode, as opposed to

Johnny Podcasts  53:13  
rate review. Yeah, and that also, in that also, you know, includes taking the extra step and taking the extra time that it takes to create quote, unquote, shareable content. 30 seconds, audiogram shorts, medium posts, law, full posts on x, if that's where you're at, being able to actually share what the content is, so someone doesn't have to do the step by step process of, okay, I click on the post, I click on the link. I go to the podcast. I click the episode, it's I tap the thing that I see, and I'm getting the content instantly. And it is, ideally the best piece of that content right away to hook that person in and get them to take the next step. Recommending podcasting may be more important than recommending a podcast. I don't know why I picked that one. We can skip to the next one. Oh, this. This one was great. And I keep forgetting that there are people listening on audio, because we can all see each other right now. Do people in your social circle ever recommend podcasts to you? And do you ever recommend podcast to people in your circle, the yeses have it. The yeses overtake the nose in both of these questions. This is the number one thing that I feel like we tend to not bring up enough, because we talked we talked about it so often over the years, and then the whole fascination and newness of Tiktok and social media promotion and things like that, that's how people are communicating with each other, is on social. So we say, share on social people talking in their day to day lives and actually recommending to people that they know, whether that's online or in person, that is how people are finding your podcast. So like Jack said, that call to action, share the episode, but then tag it on with share an episode with a friend. I often encourage the clients I work with to share. End this episode to a person you think would enjoy this that helps them create, pick a specific person in their mind. If I'm listening to a real estate podcast and I work in real estate, oh, there's a broker I just did a deal with, I think he would really get a lot of enjoyment out of this, because I love this podcast. And again, this, all this, all this whole thing is a big circle. You're creating content that someone is that is good enough and is is enough for a person that to be proud enough to stamp their recommendation on it. They're putting their reputation, however slim that may be, in this little context of recommending a podcast, they're putting themselves on the line to say, hey, you should take some time to check this out. So your content needs to be good enough in order for someone to take that step. This is 50 once. This is the last slide. Do any of the following people?

Jon Gay  55:49  
This is 50. So I think there's one more. No, this is 51 I'm sorry. Go ahead. I

Johnny Podcasts  55:53  
got the young eyeballs. Do any of the following people in your social circle? Listen to podcasts, friends, family members and coworkers and acquaintances. I can't remember why I picked this slide, but I think this just really ties back into the recommendation thing. If your friends are listening to podcasts, you're more likely to listen to podcasts. And again, it's this sort of self driving marketing engine of use your audience. Don't use your audience, don't use your audience, but get your audience to be your marketers. Get them to be the ones to promote their podcasts to their friends. If you listen to podcasts, your friends likely listen to podcasts, and if your list so all that to say, your listeners listens to your show. They have friends who listen to podcasts. Get them to share your show with them. Love that.

Catherine O'Brien  56:41  
Yeah, that's a, that's a, this is the kind of evergreen. This is, it's, it's nice to see the numbers. It's nice to see it broken down. But this is also stuff that we've, we've talked about for a while, is that the word of mouth is so powerful, and it's funny. I when the family members and friends and acquaintances who all listen to podcasts, there's kind of a type, you know, there's a little bit of a there's a type who is are going to be open to listening to podcasts, so why not play into that and get them to enjoy the podcast that you do? Just

Matt Cundill  57:10  
about that slide, I also noticed that it says acquaintances, includes neighbor, healthcare provider, stylist, barber, bartender and server. And I know that that looks weird, but I have, first of all, these are two things that will will shock you. One, I've actually had this conversation with a stylist and a barber. I've gotten how many years ago was that? Actually, it was two years ago, and the person listened or watched Dax Shepard. And I said, Well, how do you watch? And they said on YouTube. And I said, Why? Why would you just listen on Spotify? And that's sort of when I'm having that conversation about, about what is wrong with people that they're going into YouTube to fish out the podcast that they can easily listen to on Spotify. So at which point I, you know, that's the old man, get off my lawn. I've know

Johnny Podcasts  57:56  
about that's like, that's a great day zero. Kind of like core memory event of, I remember when someone said, Oh, I watched it on YouTube and being dumbfounded. And now in, you know, just two short years later, it is the place where people consume podcasts. Yeah,

Matt Cundill  58:11  
this study, by the way, was put together by our friend Jeff Fidler at Signal Hill. And I think Jeff was one of the early ones who started to, you know, put out his studies and say, Where do you get your podcast? And he just reflects what people are saying, which is YouTube. And of course, we know that there are people who started to push back. It's not really, it's not there's no RSS feed, blah, blah, blah, just just asking the questions and repeating what people are saying. Yeah, and you know, true to that we've now seen in the earlier slide, that YouTube continues to grow and to be the source and the place and the starting point for where people engage with

Johnny Podcasts  58:46  
podcasts. My heart goes out to the folks that are lying dead with the spear on their chest of the RSS Hill

Jon Gay  58:53  
is the only hot way to let's consume a podcast. Which is fine.

Johnny Podcasts  58:56  
That's that's fine. But if there are people that are working with clients, they're doing their clients a disservice by actively discouraging them from growing their show, no

Catherine O'Brien  59:05  
RS feed, no podcast.

Matt Cundill  59:07  
That's true. I have I do have one question, though, I'll ask you all professionally, and that's that, if you're starting a new show, would you entertain a client that will not do video and just have an RSS feed.

Johnny Podcasts  59:20  
Yeah, it's less work for me.

Unknown Speaker  59:22  
Okay,

Johnny Podcasts  59:23  
I'm dead serious. You said from as a professional thing, it's less work for me to do the video and you still want to do a podcast. Great. I have no loyalty to you. Have to do if you came to me and you said, I want to have a successful podcast, and I'm I want you to professionally tell me what I should do, I would say, I think it's stupid to not have a YouTube channel, if you if this is something you're going to sink all this money into. Okay,

Jon Gay  59:45  
I would, I would say, and I have several clients that are still audio only, but I have made darn sure that that audio is on YouTube with show notes and audiogram and links and all that it's you don't have to do the video. If you're a little camera shy, you don't have. Do video, but you have to be on YouTube. Yeah,

Johnny Podcasts  1:00:02  
that's the other thing too. People are camera shy that maybe, you know, I think in the context you were asking about they're like, they're adamant about it being RSS feed, but most of the I do podcasts that are audio only, and really, the main reason they have it is because they're a little camera shy. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Then they still have great audiences. The show grows. It's totally fine. That's just how some people are wired,

Catherine O'Brien  1:00:24  
indeed. Well, look at us. We're not camera shy at all. Look at this great group, good looking group of podcast Super Friends. Well, jag and Matt, thank you so much for sharing all of your insights that you got from Podcast Movement, and thanks for entertaining our peanut gallery, feedback, Snipes, questions, all those kinds of good things, anything we missed that we didn't cover today. Here. Think we got it anywhere, great. Well, let's sign off. Then we'll go in reverse order from the dramatic entrance of David, why don't you close us? Start closing us out.

David Yas  1:00:56  
Sure. David yazen, Boston, Boston Podcast Network, pod 617, com, thanks. Jag, John

Jon Gay  1:01:02  
Gay jag in Detroit podcast, jagindetroit.com or on social at jag in Detroit, Johnny,

Johnny Podcasts  1:01:10  
I don't really do the self promotion thing at the end of these anymore because, because I've stopped tweeting for the most part. So I will say this your favorite podcast, besides ours. Well, actually, including ours. You listening to your favorite podcasts, Go share it with somebody that you think would enjoy the show, whether that's ours or something else. Just go send it to somebody.

Matt Cundill  1:01:32  
Matt, a reminder to David that you're not in traffic. You are traffic. Matt Cundill, the sound off media company, share this far in life.

Catherine O'Brien  1:01:42  
Thank you, everybody. My name is Catherine O'Brien Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Franchise programs. Thanks for joining the podcast, super friends, and we will see you next time.

Sarah Burke (Voiceover)  1:01:51  
Thanks for listening to the podcast, Super Friends, for a transcript of the show, or to connect with the Super Friends. Go to the show notes of this episode, or go to sound off dot network,

Unknown Speaker  1:02:02  
produced and distributed by the sound off media.