Craig Bruce: It's Different Down Under

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Sound Off Podcast. The show about, podcast and broadcast... starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Craig Bruce does radio internationally. He's a talent coach, mentor, strategic adviser, author and podcast host. He started his radio career back in 1986, hosting breakfast and drive shows in places like Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Perth and the Gold Coast. Craig launched the Kyle and Jackie O breakfast show back in 2005. We're going to talk a lot about that show today. In 2016, he launched a podcast called Game Changers radio, which features interviews from people like Scott Shan and Christian O'Connell, Gene Bean Baxter. Craig consults radio companies like Stingray in Canada, also stations in New Zealand and Australia. His podcast is back with a series called Melbourne Radio Wars. The show is available everywhere you get your podcasts. Greg Bruce joins me from Adelaide, Australia. And we start with Game Changers radio and it's return.

Craig Bruce  1:05  
Well, with the podcasts I kind of run out of people to talk to so we you know, the idea was game changes and I wanted to get a listers on and people that I've worked with who I thought you know, had significant influence on the industry. I reckon out of the first 40 episodes, we pretty well nailed the brief. It's funny, it's one of those things where so we did the podcasting series. So we will do six interviews, and then go and record a bunch and then come back with a new series. And in the first series, we had all of these people friends that I'd worked with who were really high up in Australian radio. And I think once then that kind of given the permission for other radio presenters, you might issue gold being one so mighty was my first episode. And he's been on radio here for 20 years, and everyone loves him. And and I've known him for a long time. And so, you know, when you get him agreeing to talk to me, then it was much easier to go back to other people at his level to go okay, yes, sure of Marty is happy to talk to you than I am as well sort of thing. So that worked really well. And yeah, it was super successful for a couple of years. And then I started to sort of move into the next layer down in terms of people that I wanted to talk to all really interesting interviews, and I loved all of it. But Australian radio is pretty small. Matt, as you would know, you know, I just had got to a point where I thought I'd talked to everyone, I got to quite a few international people. You know, I think my last interview was with Jean Bean Baxter, which was fantastic. Because I've always loved the show. So I kind of felt like I'd done everything I needed to. And I guess the other thing that when I'd started going changes, I only had one single client. So I'd finished up with Southern Cross Australia, I had a little more time on my hands. And then when the work started to get a little busier, it was a bit harder to manage. Because you know what it's like it is it, there's a certain amount of hours you've got to put in to do a good product. And so I just found that getting in the way of the work. I'd spent sort of two years marketing myself. And that's what I use the Game Changers Podcast for initially was, you know, my idea was okay, I wanted to do work outside of Australia. Most people know me here. You know, how do I want to present myself to other people? And I thought, well, I guess I could write blogs and things like that. And I thought, Well, maybe if I just talk to radio, people about radio, and through that process, people will hear you know how I interact with talented performers. And maybe that might be a way to to build a client base, which turned out to be the case.

Matt Cundill  3:34  
What are some of the fundamental differences are the most obvious differences between Australian radio and North American radio.

Craig Bruce  3:41  
there are a heap the fundamental difference number one is that our radio stations here are really profitable. You know, just to give you a feel for it. So Sydney and Melbourne, Sydney is a market of about five and a half million people Melbourne is about saying they're both about the same size. And in Sydney There are I think there's eight FM commercial radio stations. And then there's the national broadcaster who has a Youth Radio station called Triple J. So there's nine FM signals in a market of 6 million people. Same for Melbourne. It starts and ends with regulation. There just aren't many licenses. Thankfully, there are three companies that run the FM licenses in Australia. So there's Nova, which is Lachlan Murdoch's company. SCA, which was the company I worked for SCA is a bit like Stingray sort of a mix of regional and metro stations and ARN who has Colin Jack and sort of on the move at the moment. So three networks and thankfully they take some of that money and invest it back into content. Our announcers get paid ridiculous amounts of money are all of our metro shows. All of them have at least a minimum of three producers. All of them have a digital producer. All of them have connected studios. All of them are marketed externally billboards, TV campaigns. Those sorts of things. So radio, the weird thing, Matt, not weird for us, but weird for you is that that radio is really still quite relevant here in Australia. You know, one of the reasons I'm doing this new podcast, the Melbourne Radio Wars is because everyone is talking about Colin Jack, the number one show in Sydney, I think probably the best radio show in the world, Stern does a different type of show now, but in terms of a pop radio show, I don't think there's anything close to Kyle and Jackie. And so they're going into Melbourne and, and the stories everywhere. And it's not just about that they don't, you know, they take up 80% of press and air time, you know, there are lots of other presenters on Australian radio that people are interested in, it's in a really healthy position. And so that would be all of the differences flow out of that there's, you know, lots of conversations about Australian radio, in terms of idea generation and the sorts of things we do creatively here. But at the end of the day, in my experience, having worked with lots of Canadian shows now over the last eight years, there's no difference in terms of quality of talent, or great ideas and high hopes for things that they could do above and beyond the next heartbreak. But just there's not the resource to be able to do it. And I guess that's the difference. So it's this self perpetuating thing the more radio remains interesting through ideas and through the talk ability component of radio, which has always been its great strength. Whilst that continues to be a thing, then people are still interested in the announces and, and that's left us in a place which, you know, we're reasonably well placed for whatever is about to come, which I think it's a pretty fast, hard tsunami of changes in terms of what's already happened. But for Australia, it hasn't to the same degree in North America in terms of streaming and digital and all this, all the other sorts of things that go with it. 

Matt Cundill  6:50  
They passed out licenses, like nuts in places like Edmonton and Halifax. And now I look at these cities and they are over served with kind of cheap branded radio. 

Craig Bruce  7:04  
Yeah.

Matt Cundill  7:05  
I'm driving today I don't need for country stations on my radio and I'm, I'm in Winnipeg, I feel we're over served with stations in North America, who had the foresight in Australia not to over serve the markets?

Craig Bruce  7:18  
Yeah, I think it's a combination of the companies working with the government on making that process, incredibly restrictive. So the last new FM brand was 20 years ago, the Nova brand, which came into the market at Nova was an alternative pop format, Paul Jackson, the legendary UK program director, when he first heard it thought it sounded like a college radio station. So it was a mix of alternative rock and hit music. It was this incredibly, there's a really different sort of sound, the positioning was sounds different. So it came into the market came underneath the top 40 stations that I was involved in at the time, two ads and arose and never more than two ads in a row. What's his message, and it had this really cool subversive sort of feel about it. And it was a brilliant marketing and all of the elements of the branding were just amazing. You know, they reset the benchmark for top 40 in Australia through the early 2000s. So that was the last time we've had an FM license. Hang on. Yeah. And then maybe a couple of years later, we had the AC markets open up with the smooth format. So yeah, I mean, you think about it 20 odd years ago, there wasn't an AC radio station on the FM band in Australia. You're over surface, we've been underserved. So we're probably two or three formats short. I mean, the problem in Australia right now, Matt, is that there's no and I think it's this is a problem for radio everywhere. Maybe not everywhere. The UK is okay, New Zealand's okay. But there's no top 40 radio station, or there's nothing for under 35 year olds in Australia anymore, and nothing targeted at under 35 year olds. And that's just going to accelerate the rate of change that's already happening with usage and consumption that's changing so quickly. So that's gonna be a problem. Not now. But in five to 10 years from now, the same presenters will be on the air in 10 years from now the same shows and the formats will be the same in terms of music. There'll be a generation of Australian, you know, 20 to 35 year olds that will have grown up with podcasts and Spotify. And that's probably going to happen anyway. But we're doing a pretty good job of accelerating that and making sure that the door is well and truly shut on radio in that respect, which is disappointing. But understand, you know, there's business models, and there's not enough under 35 year olds listening to the radio anymore, which is pretty sad.

 Do you think they'll always be usage for a transmitter? Because I think that people are going to see these and find a use for it whether you know, Google finds a use for it. Maybe what goes comes out of it is not going to be music, maybe it will be a form of talk. Maybe it will be a way to pump podcasts to the car, who knows. But is there any talk amongst, you know, getting together with the radio people to say what are we going to do to serve people under 35? 

I don't know. Look, I think so. All of the companies here now have podcast strategies, and I'm sure it's the same for North America and, you know, obviously iHeart being the the leader in in that territory, we're sort of going down that path in terms of being able to connect with younger listeners. So I think, you know, it's going to be a combination of how do we, how do we grow the digital pie, whilst we understand that that decline in in broadcast is going to continue to sort of happen. It was funny, and you will have seen this as well. I think it was Larry Rosen. The question he gets asked by general managers and execs in the US is, you know, where's the floor? Have we hit the bottom yet? And his thing is, there is no floor. And that doesn't, you know, I don't want to sound negative here. But that, which it does, but the fact of the matter is, you know, it's going to continue to decline and companies are going to have to work out. Okay, well, if it's not broadcast, what is it a combination of, and in Australia, again, all of the companies are doing a pretty good job of getting that mix of digital, on demand content to audiences that are younger, I don't know what you know, for you, Matt. I mean, I'm a podcast listener when I'm not listening to the radio. And I listen to podcasts because I can get exactly the kind of topic that I'm interested in, directly into my ears without having to wait. So it's a pretty good model. I don't listen to a lot of music. But I would assume that would be the same thing. If I wanted to hear a song that I wanted to hear, I don't want to have to wait around for it. So on demand, and podcasting for me is it makes perfect sense. It's a it's a really good model. Thankfully, in Australia, as I said, we do have, you know, performance by Christian O'Connell, Kyle and Jackie Oh, and, you know, there's four or five other really good shows that are keeping radio relevant. And, you know, thank God for that. But today, you know, here we are doing a podcast about radio, you know, it's just would never have even been conceivable, you know, 20 years ago, why are you doing this, you're doing this because, you know, you're in the world of consulting and helping other people as I am. And we're, you know, this is a marketing tool for us, it makes perfect sense. And so I mean, to that end, I love what audio has become, I just love it, I love the fact that I, you know, there's all of these different ways of being able to, you know, hear and interact with things that you're interested in.

Matt Cundill  12:11  
And so your career on air went to 1999. And that's kind of a pivotal year, because it was right around 99. In 2000, when you began to get bit torrent and file sharing, and music could become a little bit more, you know, shareable across the internet. You didn't have to call your favorite radio station to listen to a song that was largely inaccessible. You could just go and help yourself off Napster. And that's sort of the year that you take a pivot and you head into programming. So why what what attracted you to programming?

Craig Bruce  12:42  
Well, I was out of necessity, more than anything. So I was hosting breakfast shows, you know, through my 20s, I was just a pain in the ass to be honest, I thought I knew me better than everyone. I had. A had a bad attitude. But you know, I was reasonably okay on the air. You know, I had a really strong discipline around how I would prepare for shows and and I was reasonably good at anchoring breakfast shows and things like that. But, you know, I just was very good at pointing the finger at other people and coming up with reasons why my career wasn't going the way I wanted to. And I was fired. I was taken off a breakfast show in my hometown of Adelaide, and I was 30. And I was essentially the floater. Remember, did you have floaters back in the day in Canada floating was essentially doing everyone else's shift when they were on holiday. So I was demoted from anchoring the breakfast show to floating.

Matt Cundill  13:37  
I think we call it we call it gets the word swing, shift. 

Craig Bruce  13:40  
Swing Shift, right, there you go. So it was called floating in. So I was the floater at the age of 30. And I, you know, had to have a conversation with myself about why this happened. And what am I going to do next? I had someone in my corner, Jeff Ellis, who was the head of content at Austereo at the time, and he was a great mentor. Jeff said to me, and a few others had said it along the way. He said, Look, you've got a good sense of programming. If you want to head in that direction, I will help you get there. And I remember to this day, exactly the moment and where he said that to me. I remember the road that I was on, I remember the car that I was in, I remember it was the first moment in my life where I thought, Oh, I've got someone in my corner. And he was an incredible support for me. Not not standing over my shoulder, you know, teaching me one on one every five minutes, but he was just so supportive. And that was all I needed. And then it was like I just ran like I was being chased by a bear. To be honest, I just realized that unless, you know, this was my second chance. And I had I guess enough self awareness to know that I wasn't gonna make a living out of being on the radio. I was okay at it, but I wasn't in the top 1% which you need to be and I thought okay, well, maybe I can I can do the programming thing. I'm a good writer. Uh, I'm pretty good creatively. I'm very good creatively now, but that was a muscle that I sort of have developed over the years. And because I've got an empathy for announcers having been on the air for a long time and worked on shows and things like that, I feel like I have some kind of connection with most of the shows that I work with. So that was the they were the pillars that I built the programming career on. I'm terrible with data terrible with numbers. You know, my creative strength is my analytical weakness. And that's okay. And, you know, I got on a roll, I came up with some really interesting ideas in that first year or so the things like the fugitive, which we started in, in my hometown of Adelaide, which became a, you know, a really big contest that happened, you know, in lots of markets around the world. In fact, that was the reason I ended up in Canada, I'd Stingray, God bless him. So I wrote a so this was when I'm out of SCA have left. And I'm writing blogs and doing podcasts and looking for new clients, essentially. And I wrote a blog about the, you know, the history behind the fugitive and how it happened. And Steve Jones read it and sent me a message on LinkedIn and said, Oh, you're the guy I need to thank. You said, Oh, by the way, and Paul Kay had just left. He said, By the way, what are you doing? I said, Well, I'm, on my own doing my thing. And, and so it went from there, and you know, massive credit to Steve like, I'd never met him. We had no history. And you'd know what it's like Matt, you know, radio is a really small industry. And most of the connections you make are connections that you've grown up with Steve and I had no history hadn't, he had no idea who I was. We started really small. I came over and had a look at one of the shows. It was Ruby and Cruise on Zed in Vancouver in 2016. And, you know, bit by bit, he gave me more shows. And eventually we sort of took on a more permanent role. Yes. So that's how that started. So, you know, The Fugitive was, you're writing about it was was the reason I'm now in Canada.

Matt Cundill  16:59  
Did you launch Kyle and Jackie Oh?

Craig Bruce  17:01  
Well, no, no, I didn't I put them into breakfast. So they had something. 

Matt Cundill  17:05  
Yeah, that is something. 

Craig Bruce  17:07  
So in 2004, Jeff Ellis, my mentor, I'd been in Adelaide and had done some things and going okay. And Today FM was in a really bad space, we just finished up with a breakfast show that had been unbelievably successful for a number of years. And we're in this kind of awful transition where the replacement wasn't quite working out. And so we're about six or nine months into it. And he's he sent me to Sydney. And he said, You've got eight weeks to work out whether the current show can last. And if they can't, you need to tell me who the next show is. And so it didn't take me long to work out that the show that we had on the year wasn't going to get there. And then I'm looking around to Kyle and Jackie were doing Drive at that time. And previously they were the night show. And they were pretty edgy back then, but really quite young as well in their sound. And we talked to pretty well everyone in Sydney about the doing breakfast the following year. And Kyle and Jackie is sitting right under our noses. And then again, I remember distinctly I'm in my office and listening to the Kyle and Jackie Oh show. And they did this break where Kyle was talking about the video the plays in his head when he's having sex with his girlfriend and the video is not the girlfriend. And Kyle and Jack have the you know, typical college conversation with all the dynamic that goes with it. And I thought that sounds like a breakfast break. And that was it. So I went back to Jeff and we had lots of discussions because at that time they were really it was like too young and too edgy and there to this. Anyway, the last survey result of the year comes out we're in a room 25th floor of the Bondi Junction overlooking Sydney Harbour. This massive Sydney storm is coming in in November, December period, you get these really because it's quite humid in Sydney, you get these really big thunderstorms that come through, it's at about four o'clock in the afternoon. There's myself and Jeff Ellison guy called guy Dobson, who's great friend, and he was consulting for Austereo at the time. And Jeff gets us together and goes, Okay, what are we going to do? And guy said, I think we should keep the show that we've got let's give them another year. And I said, we have to go with Kyle and Jackie. And Jeff looks at the two of us and says I don't know let me think about and I said to Jeff well look you've brought me here to fix the breakfast show. So if it's not Kyle and Jack I'll go home and not throwing the toys ala carte but you know it's it's Kyle and Jack or nothing for me so and he backed that decision in and, and then put a shitload of money behind marketing the show. And off we went. 

Matt Cundill  19:37  
What makes the show so successful? You kind of touched on it, but then they get into breakfast and it goes...

Craig Bruce  19:43  
Yeah, there's so much to it. Well, 20 years of working together, there's got to be something in that. There's a deep respect that they have for each other. So I've learned I learned a lot from Kyle and Jack. And the thing that I noticed first about them was the fact that they had this great connection off the air they back in the day. And you know, when they're in their early 30s, they just spent all of their time together. As friends away from work. They had this clicker, this group of people that they would hang out with. And, you know, some of it was just having fun on but a lot of the time it was ideas for the show. So they were just always talking to each other, the shorthand that you hear on the air now, that's 20 years in the making. So there's that they've got each other's back. Like you cannot separate them on anything. It's one in all in, you would never, ever, ever hear either of them talk about the other behind their backs, so that there's a deep level of trust and respect. So that's the that's the bedrock, that's the layer at the bottom, which is a pretty good place to start. Kyle has got funnier almost exponentially over the last 20 years. I mean, he just he continues to he's just in this zone. At the moment. I said to someone the other day, he's broadcasting with a level of freedom that you just don't hear on the radio anymore. There is literally no there is no layer between who he is off the air and who he is on the air. Sometimes that can be to his detriment, but it's the same person. And she is as well. Yeah, so they have the dynamic that chemistry. He He's funny. She's so smart. I mean, Jackie is the engine room for ideas. So one of the first things I remember that back in the day was when we started, we had one producer, an executive producer guy called Paul Dowser. He was amazing. And then an assistant producer Lisa hired, and we had an audio producer, and then there was me. And we would meet every Monday and Jackie would get us in a room and she would go okay, what are we going to do to get talked about this week? And the stealing is in her eyes when she would say that? She wasn't mucking around? It wasn't the user how sometimes with radio shows you go Yeah, I think we've made some noise with that particular idea. And it's I know you haven't, maybe a few staff members have noticed it. But that's not noise. Jackie had this incredibly high bar for you. And just an intuitive, you know, sense that to break through in Sydney, we're going to have to really push the boundaries and really push the edge, not the edge of decency, but just we're going to have to be extraordinary all of the time. So that's always been at the heart of it. It's like, you know, what are we doing today? You know, what, how are we going to get noticed? And you know, with every single show, there's a spike, there's something that happens on the show every single day. Some of it's planned, some of it's not, but it is, I can't get out of the car radio that is unique in that respect. So they have that they have high expectations for everyone who works on the show. And you know, to the credit of Austereo. So my old company and ARN it's unbelievably well supported by teams of people who I'm sure you've seen their studio, you must look at and go, Oh, the army of Gen Z kids helping them with the show. And you know, Kyle has this ability to be able to bring in all of these voices and, and so all of them play a particular role. So it it it's resource to the gills. It's been marketed to the hilt like we carpet bombed the market in Sydney in 2005. Or six, we just blew the market away with more. You know, we just kept spending. Yes, sir. All of those things have come together. And now they're just this mega brand, where you know, they're superstars in of themselves. They're no, they're kind of part of the Australian pop Zeitgeist. And yeah, good luck to them.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  23:24  
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Matt Cundill  23:54  
So I think back to when I was on the air, the best show I was a part of was the one where I felt like I was with my best friend on the air. And I get the feeling that when I watch Curb Your Enthusiasm on HBO, that they're all friends. And on Seinfeld, they felt they were all friends. And so the question I would ask because, you know, because you work with talent. Is it possible to have a successful show at that level or near that level? And not carry that friendship?

Craig Bruce  24:27  
Yeah, I'm glad you asked Matt. I feel like this is to me, you know, the first question, or the first thing that I talked to any show that I work with is about investment and investment in your co host. And I don't think that the the short answer to that question is no, I don't think you can to the level that you know, that can really give you your best chance of reaching the full potential of the show. And I have seen it you know, certainly Kyle and Jackie, Hamish and Andy. And really any successful show I've worked with there's an investment in the relationship core relationship and I see it on the ground. With a lot of the stingray shows I work with I can think of Vinny and Randy are a classic example. Red Deer. new country. What a great show.

Matt Cundill  25:11  
That was one of the that's one of the first ones that came to my mind as I'm so they... 

Craig Bruce  25:15  
Really so, you've noticed that? 

Matt Cundill  25:17  
Well, I know, I know, Randy. And Randy and I talk on an ongoing basis, but they adore each other. 

Craig Bruce  25:24  
Unbelievable. And they're and they're so different you know that so he's older and she's you know, kind of a bit new age and they just they're but they work so hard at that relationship off the air. And look, you know, we as programmers, we can't force anything I mean, at the end of the day, if you don't want to have a connection with your co host away from work, then that's fine but it's it's gonna hold you back a little sometimes when co hosts here or hosts here this idea of investment I think are what I've got to go and have a barbecue with them on the weekend. You know, what am I spent 15 hours in a room with her already? What do I need to do more than this, but it has to be something that you feel is going to help the show long term and and so when you hear Vinnie and Randy there is this short hand that they have that comes from the effort that they've made off the air, and they just know each other so well that you can hear that shorthand on there. That's what chemistry is. It comes from the effort that you make to get to know someone friend of mine a couple of years ago, who was the executive producer of Hamish and Andy, we share a friend, Jules Lund, his name is done radio and TV here in Australia. And Sammy always used to say to me, one of the things I love about Jules is that he invests in his friendship, he so he's a great friend, he really invest in those friendships, those relationships that matter to him. That kind of the penny dropped for me at that moment. From a radio perspective, I thought that's exactly what that looks like, from a radio point of view as well, the shows that it's no secret that and you could find examples where the CO hosts don't like each other on the show are successful but I think, for whatever reason, in this day and age, I think it's a hinderance. Now, if you can't have some kind of connection, whatever you want that to look like, off the air. 

Matt Cundill  27:03  
I think people can hear it now. 

Craig Bruce  27:05  
They can, no, you're absolutely no question they can. Maybe they could hear it before, and we dismiss that, but I'm not sure.

Matt Cundill  27:13  
We were better at hiding. Back in the day, we were, we were better at hiding it. You know, when you speak to an audience, we used to be able to speak at an audience and we get away with it. You have to speak to the audience. And when you're speaking to the audience, you get their ear, they can just hear it. They just know. It's subtle little things too, right? Like Like you don't support your co host by let's say you're having a conversation about football, you're having a conversation about wrestling, and maybe one person doesn't like it? Well, you know, Fred, you don't like football, being able to keep everybody into the conversation. And it's just two people just talking to each other. And then the listener can't get involved. And yet, I don't these people don't even know each other. So how am I going to get to know them? 

Craig Bruce  27:13  
Yeah. And I think in I was saying to somebody the other day, I've got this kind of theory that I think for radio moving forward, it's going to be about the dynamic of the of the hosts. So radio can't win topics anymore. Because if you want a topic that you're interested in, you'll you'll go and grab a podcast or get a new service or whatever. But radio can win. We still have dynamic that chemistry and the dynamic of the host. So you know, I think moving forward, the really good shows will be the ones where the audience says I get them, I understand them I can I feel like I understand that the connection that they have, I can hear the report. There's something that I really like about that. I feel like there's a there's a community of people like me that understand them as well. And I think it'll be less about what you say, although that's really important, obviously. But it's going to be about the dynamic of the host, certainly for radio moving forward. Because you know, podcasting just, it's just too easy. If you I mean, I'm gonna find out about the Trump trial today. So, you know, I could sit in and wait next to the ABC News Radio for the maybe one update they do in the two hours that I listen, or I can go and grab one of 100 different podcasts and get a 30 minute view of it.

Matt Cundill  29:07  
Here's a stupid game I play presenter will say coming up in nine minutes will tell you what happened at the Trump trial, you're not going to believe something. And I'm like, it may not be something as obvious as that one. But even if it's like one of those crazy kicker stories, yeah. And what I'll try to do is I want to see if I can Google the story faster than you can get through the two songs for the nine minutes that you tried to hook me into. I win every time.

Craig Bruce  29:30  
Yeah, yeah, I headed there. So funny. I think I wrote a blog on this. I heard that exact scenario in Australia, and announcer doing you know, a typical hook. Hey, something's just happened in Melbourne. It was a news story is just broken and it two songs will tell you what it is. It was about a particular thing. So it was there was enough for you to go to the phone and go ok thanks for that. And find out and stick around for eight minutes to work out what that is. It's so yeah, there's that information transfers changed completely, isn't it? 

Matt Cundill  30:01  
Yeah, it reminds me of one announcer went on the air and said that the bombs have started to fall in Iraq, we'll give you information in five minutes after we hear from the Tea Party and heaven coming down. I called them up. And I said, you might as well turn on the microphone and swear, because no one's going to hear you. Because they all went to the new station and left yet ran to the TV. 

Craig Bruce  30:23  
Yeah, that's it.

Matt Cundill  30:24  
You're talking about the Gen Z's and Gen Z kids who are running around gathering resources and doing things. So I haven't had the experience to see Gen Z in action. But what does Gen Z bring into a radio studio, that millennials and Gen X just weren't good at?

Craig Bruce  30:45  
Gen Z, you're interesting. So I've got four daughters 29, through to 20. So two of them, I guess, a Gen Z, they're so bright and connected and you know, smarter and sharper than I will ever be. So that's my family dynamic, I've got a few that I can sort of have a look at up close and see how they work. I'll give you a good example. So hopefully, we'll catch up to the Radio Days in in Toronto, where I'm presenting about the background behind girl math, which is was this incredible viral moment that happened last year, and it started at a radio station that I work with in New Zealand, called Zed M. So I mentioned New Zealand before and New Zealand does have two top 40 radio brands. And both of them are true top 40. So you know that they're they're targeting 25-44 all but you know, there's a real battle for 25 to 29 year olds, and flip phone and Haley who are the breakfast show on Zed M. Have a couple of producers Shannon and Carwin. And they were talking off the air about this dress that Shannon was thinking of buying and she's trying to justify it and Cowen said yeah, that's girl math. And yeah, that's girl math. And so they've pitched it to Haley the who's a star, by the way, one of the great radio presenters of this time, mentioned it to her and said this girl math, is that a thing? And she said, Yeah, that sounds that sounds true. Let's do that as a break. And so they did on the show that day at about 8:25. And then they posted a video and it's and it worked really, really well. And they thought okay, well, I think we're onto something. And so they brought it back the next day and put some production around it and created an opener and posted that video. And suddenly, they are off to the races. And so this thing grew to I mean, it would be the biggest viral moment from a radio show, probably in the history of radio, and I've got the receipts to prove it. Like it just was insane how far and wide it went. And because they had the first hashtag, everything came back to Zed in the you know, the girl that was that. Shannon, who was posting all of the videos and managing the tsunami of listeners that were coming into the show and hit that one hearing the show and going well that's really good is did you have a podcast version. So suddenly, the podcast numbers are going up. We literally own the idea. So no one else in New Zealand can do it because you know Zed M is attached to it, you know, through TikTok and radio together, this idea has just absolutely transformed the show for a period of time. And the ratings come out eight weeks later, and we've had our biggest so it's gone up to be and went from a 4.7 or 6.5. Those numbers might seem small. But as Auckland has 30 FM signals, it's the most competitive radio market for its size in the world. So you know, a two point rise in breakfast is off the charts are all of the metrics off the back of that would suggest that we've landed on something so what a Gen Z bring well, they bring this understanding of their own generation that we don't get, you know, Haley, and that team was smart enough to go, well, one, you've got to have the strategy. So you've got to start with, it's important that we find content that will be interesting for women who are in that younger demographic that are dating, renting, not married, don't have kids, you know, have some personal sort of freedoms of being married and having that kind of discipline of day to day of working and you know, just getting by, you know, those people don't have. So we've got to think about those people. And so that's the strategy. And then when an idea like that comes along, you know, Haley is going Yeah, well, that's that speaks to me, I get it, let's do it. And then now we're smart enough to take the idea and continue to build on it. And so this thing that started as purely as a, as a phone, or essentially a phone topic idea, becomes the biggest viral radio moment in the history of certainly in the last 20 years. Well, there wasn't for virilaty 20 years ago. So it's the biggest moment that I think radios had. That's what Gen Z brings that they bring a freshness and possibilities and an approach that thinks differently to how we think about things. And it's about harnessing it, it's about you know, for me, whenever I see a team of, of younger people, I want to get as close as I can to those that are under 30 and hear what they're doing and what they're thinking and, and pull apart those things that you and I think are said instone. Here's the way we always do things. You don't want to hear from people that might have a different perspective. Yeah, and I look I don't know, in thankfully, in New Zealand and Australia, you know, and the makeup of the Kyle and Jack production team, they're all under the age of 30. And that's what keeps Colin Jack Young. That's what they're smart right there. Kyle is 52. Jackie's in her late 40s. We can't pretend to be anything that we're not. But we can, we can keep the show youthful, and have this young energy by bringing in the various people within the show, and living vicariously through them. So, you know, I don't know what that's like in North America Matt, whether there's enough, you know, under 30 year olds coming in with new ideas and new thinking, but it would be a nice thing to have.

Matt Cundill  35:44  
If you want to grow Gen Z, maybe get them into the studio. Totally. I mean, they already come prepackaged to create, create. Exactly. So I guess I did have this download as a question. So I'm not gonna ask a stupid question. But now I'm gonna ask the stupid question. If all these Gen Z if they come into the radio station, prepackaged and ready to create, what do you think we would need to teach them?

Craig Bruce  36:10  
That's a bloody good question. Fundamentals of break structure, I think would be would be a good place to start. I've been producing a podcast for Spotify for the last couple of years here in Australia, the inspired unemployed so they are the probably the biggest social media brand in Australia and have been for a couple of years to x tradies. Tradies, do you know what I tradie is, someone working on a building sites of Australian term but 

Matt Cundill  36:34  
Tradesmen hard hats? 

Craig Bruce  36:37  
Yeah, so everything has an E at the end of it. That's it. They started producing content through COVID different dance videos and things like that blew up and have sort of made their way out of their previous lives into this new world of content creation. And Spotify smartly looked at their audience and thought, Wow, can we get percentage of those to come and join them on a podcast? So we started, I started working with them right at the start of the project, and they knew nothing about audio. And what they didn't know was one, they had no idea that they should bring themselves to anything that they would do. So it's likely that one of the hosts said to me, why would I talk about myself, who would be interested in that, too, that is the very reason you're going to do a podcast is to put yourself on the line. So there was that, so they didn't understand that and just the idea of break structure. And we had this moment where so we were sort of the show was being constructed through the back end of COVID. And they were in New Zealand for New Zealand tourism event. They got stuck in Queenstown when the country got locked down. So Queenstown is this beautiful city at the bottom of New Zealand, one of the most beautiful, it's not a city town, 15 - 20,000 people, it's just stunning. The bottom of New Zealand, they got stuck there literally for six weeks. We were supposed to launch the podcast, essentially, in six weeks. And so we've sent them microphones and headphones and all the rest of it. And we practiced, it was like boot camp every day for six weeks. So we had because they're so busy, like having them. Having a captive audience with them. Getting them in a room for six weeks is almost impossible. We had this weird thing where we had their total attention and focus for six weeks. And we practice we practice break structure, beginning middle in what's the idea? Where's the essence of that idea? What are you going to do with that, and we would listen back and they were here, I that was too long here, maybe I can make that shorter. We just kept practicing every day. And we kind of downloaded probably a year's worth of feedback into six weeks. They were still rough around the edges when they started. But that was looking back then. And they this the show is unbelievably successful. It's one of Spotify is because shows here in Australia, and they've just got better and better as they've gone along. So I guess to answer your question, I would I would want to spend as much time as I could in the early stages of break structure. But I think they understand that I mean, certainly when you watch TikTok creators, they talk about what's what's the kind of the hook at the front of the videos. So you know, that sort of language makes sense to them. And then I would just try and get out of their way. And And if anything sounds clunky, and and doesn't necessarily hit my ears or your ears in the way that you would normally expect them to, then maybe that's a good thing and not a bad thing. You know, if you were to put a young person on the radio, and they do things a little differently, I'd probably want to explore well, maybe what do I need to learn here? What do I What are they doing here? That might because that was the thing, you know, go back Kyle and Jack I had 100 stupid radio ideas in my head around how that show should be presented, you know, break links news on time, all of the dumb thing, you know, the all of the basics that you and I feel, you know, this is all you know, every radio show should do this. And he pushed back on every single one of them and he was right. And I was wrong every single time so sometimes, you know, they don't come along all that often. But when you get someone at that level, you've got to get out of their way programming with a light touch and coaching with a light touches much harder than getting in the weeds and being technical with shows it's really easy to go through the, you know, the 10 things you should do tomorrow that you haven't done today. But programming with a light touch with someone that's got a real sense of magic about what they do, how do you get out of their way, but also help them? I'm kind of still learning that I think that some planning bloody long answer to a king short question. 

Matt Cundill  40:23  
You answered another question at the same time, because I was gonna ask you, what are you doing with Spotify, Australia, but you answered that. So thank you very much for doing that. Which leads me to the podcast coming back. The trailer is out. Melbourne Radio Wars, fascinating stuff. So what's the podcast about?

Craig Bruce  40:40  
Well, it's about Kyle and Jack, who have got this incredible audience in Sydney and have been number one for 20 years, and everyone knows them in Australia, and they're about to be networked into Melbourne. This will be the first step to national networking, Matt, and I think it's going to happen whether it's successful or not. So what's about to happen in Australia is that I think you'll end up with three or four networks, three or four Super brands, and probably four or five super shows, with Kyle being Kyle and Jackie being the first of them. So there's this rivalry, the Sydney Melbourne rivalry. It's not, it's more like is it Toronto versus Vancouver? I guess it's a bit like that. Maybe?

Matt Cundill  41:15  
I'd go to Toronto, Montreal. 

Craig Bruce  41:16  
Yeah, right. Okay. Yep. 

Matt Cundill  41:18  
Habs leafs, English, French, Quebec, Ontario. 

Craig Bruce  41:21  
Yeah. Okay, cool. So there's that going on. And that's a bit of a media beat up most Melbourne people, you know, there's Melbourne is very parochial, but that's okay. Sydney doesn't care one way or the other. So anyway, Kyle and JAck going into Melbourne. You know, they they have, you know, he's a loudmouth. He's crass. He's, he's, he represents everything that is good and bad about Sydney, you know, bright shining lights and look at me and you know, fast cars, and all of the things that he represents in Melbourne is much, much more cultured. It's a European city. It's about coffee and conversation and, and great comedians have been on the radio in Melbourne. So the question is, can he come into the market? Can they come into the market and do what they did in Sydney. And you've got these two other shows one, which has a host who has his best friend, who was taken off the radio station that he's now about to be on. So you've got that going on. And then you've got this really strong brand called the fox, which has been a number one brand in Melbourne for years, the top 40 brand, that's going to defend. So underneath the just the pure radio component of it, it's Sydney versus Melbourne. It's the it's also a case of I don't know how often you hear Kyle and Jack, or if you've heard of much lately, but I listened the other week, I've only really just started listening again, in prep for the podcast, and the content, the language is extreme, like, I listened sometimes. And I wonder whether we have codes on forecasting codes anymore. Like how on earth is he getting away with this just it is it's quite shocking. And I think that to me, so this question of the radio is always presented. So it's always about local, it's about representing the town, it's about being the town square, it's about connecting with people that are just like you that understand your world. That's radio's promise. And Kyle and Jackie are going to come into the market and go that it has nothing to do with, with where you live and what you're about. It's about whether the content is good enough. So that's point one. And point two is, and I'm going to talk about sex, and I'm going to swear I'm going to do these things. And that has worked in Sydney, and there'll be enough people in Melbourne that like it. So they're the two things that I think this will be won and lost on. And I'm not sure of the I think I don't think it's going to be a local issue. I think podcasts have kind of changed the game in that respect, you don't really care. You know, the source of the audio, where it comes from doesn't really matter as much as it used to. But I think the content will be interesting, you know, if you're targeting women, and there's just so much sexualized content on the year and there is it's like Howard Stern 1999. A lot of it, maybe not that heavy, but she's it's really so that's that. Yeah, so we're following that. And we'll do that for I don't know, it might be a 20 week thing, you know, Kyle will come out at some point. And so I'm going to be number one, and we'll follow it until he is or he isn't. We'll see what happens.

Matt Cundill  44:18  
I mean, it can go years if you if you want it to because the storyline can just keep going and you know, Melbourne versus Sydney can just carry on. 

Craig Bruce  44:27  
Yeah,  it might. I mean, I'm open to it. You know, I like podcasting myself. It was you know, as I said before, I was on the radio and I like talking into microphones. I'm I'm aware of my capabilities. I'm not great at it, but I like doing it. I like writing and I like creating, you know, I do so much creative work with so many other teams. It's nice to be able to spend to kind of carve off 10 15% of my workweek to myself, which I maybe that's part of what you're about as well Matt but for me, it's just nice to be able to write something and then do it. Rather than write something and hand it to someone else as much as I love doing that. So yeah, I'm open to it lasting for as long as it does, and it might morph into something else. I mean, I really enjoyed the game changes, interview component, and I like the prep and the planning for it. And you know, I'm interested in just the creative process and how people you know, when you hear someone on the radio, my question was always, well, how did you get to become so good? That was the idea behind the original Game Changers. And this is a different story. This is you know, this is a really, you know, this is going to be a fun media battle, where radio is center stage. And wouldn't it be amazing that if this was a story in Canada, where you had cities, big cities caring enough about the medium that you know, you've got front page headlines about a radio show, I mean, it's it's it can only be a good thing for the industry. And I know there's going to be flying effects of networking and things like that, but just in terms of keeping relevant radio relevant it's it's, it's a great story.

Matt Cundill  46:06  
The trailer is out and we look forward to seeing you at Radio Days North American a few weeks.

Craig Bruce  46:10  
Good on you Matt. Good to see you. We'll grab a beer when, when when I'm over. 

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  46:14  
The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Sieminski, edited by Chloe Edmond-Lane social media by Aidan Glassy, another great creation from the Sound Off Media company, there's always more at soundoffpodcast.com