Jeremy Enns: Creative Wayfinding

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Sound Off Podcast. The show about podcast and broadcast starts now.

Matt Cundill  0:13  
Jeremy Enns is a podcast marketer. He helps creators meet their goals. He sees a lot of phonies and B.S. podcast marketers come and largely go. And over the years he's developed a tangible and focused approach to podcast marketing. Don't take my word for it, you can just subscribe to his newsletter, Creative Wayfinding. I've posted a link for you to sign up at Soundoffpodcast.com, or even better, you can go to his website, Jeremyenns.com. Jeremy also heads up the Podcast Marketing Academy, Podcast Launch Academy and Podcast Audio Academy, acknowledging that some of us are good at some things, but not necessarily good at others. For instance, I'm good with launches and audio, but I've always got questions about marketing. So likely that's where I'll gravitate towards today. Jeremy Enns joins me from Barcelona, Spain. Jeremy, you got into podcasting in 2016. What did you do before podcasting?

Jeremy Enns  1:07  
Oh, so there's a two part answer to this. And the first part is that I went to audio engineering school and wanted to work in the music industry. So went to school and moved to Vancouver, Canada for that, from- from the prairies where I know we both are originally from, and went through school, did an internship after that at a big studio with a long storied history. We're at- places where like Metallica and Aerosmith and Guns and Roses all recorded back in the 80s and 90s. It was under different ownership when I interned there, but it's still a pretty cool experience. And so I was there for about a year. Little Mountain Sound, was then Fader Mountain Sound at the point I was there. And Garth Richardson was the kind of Head Producer there at the time I was there, he's done a lot of work with a lot of big names as well in his own right. So kind of got into audio that way. But after that realized I was doing that for a year, kind of a couple days a week, realized that everybody who's like moving up the ladder at the studio, was there seven days a week, kind of like 8am till 4am every single day. And I knew at least one guy who was like living out of his car in Vancouver there, I had a full- full time job, needed to pay the bills and everything. So I kind of realized like, I wasn't gonna get anywhere at that studio at the kind of rate I was investing in it timewise. And this was an unpaid internship as well, which I believe is still very common in the music industry, certainly was back when I was there 10 years ago. And so I kind of realized like, Okay, well, this isn't, you know, what I want to do, let me just take a step back from this and reassess. And so I'd always worked on like landscaping, worked at golf courses, kind of outdoor stuff, just like an outdoorsy type guy. So I went back to landscaping, then, for a couple years did tree planting in northern BC, kind of saved up, took a year off to go travel the world, and came back and at that time discovered podcasting as a listener. And the first thing I looked up was, you know, how do you start business online that allows you to travel, and so kind of found my way into the online business. Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield kind of world at the time, those are some of the first shows I discovered and started kind of experimenting, and trying to find out, you know, how can I build an online business? So that was kind of the pre podcasting transition into podcasting phase of my life.

Matt Cundill  3:08  
Do you have a CFOX story or maybe a Rock 101 story from Vancouver, any radio story?

Jeremy Enns  3:13  
No stories from Vancouver when it comes to radio. I did work- one of the landscaping jobs, it was you know, an old truck that I drove. So I did spend a lot of time stuck in traffic around Vancouver listening to the radio, but I was very much a channel flipper at that point. It's kind of interesting. Like, I knew all the stations in Edmonton and Saskatoon, and I got to Vancouver. And it's just like, I didn't listen to the radio that much. So I never really knew what the stations were or what to expect. So I never really was a diehard listener of any of them.

Matt Cundill  3:39  
I can see you going through Edmonton and flipping between, you know, Sonic and the Bear.

Jeremy Enns  3:46  
Maybe a little KROC even. 

Matt Cundill  3:48  
Of course, how could I forget KROC? The first time that I encountered you online, you had this great Facebook group called Cut the Bullshit. And I was always fascinated by Cut the Bullshit Podcasting. I just said I didn't understand- I didn't realize we had any bullshit in podcasting. Yet there was. So what were some of the things that you saw people were doing that you wanted to teach people to do properly?

Jeremy Enns  4:12  
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot, a lot of this stuff has persisted, a lot of it's gotten a lot worse now. I kind of don't really engage with it anymore or even see it come across my screen. I know there's some people who were just on a crusade against it. And I've kind of like moved away from that and kind of said, Okay, I'm gonna like occupy a higher level of the discourse here. At this point. I don't want to just stay stuck in the weeds of all this, whatever it is, people are talking about bad advice and information. That's what's going on out there. But at the time, I think coming in as an audio guy, I think there's a lot of stuff that people would- I mean, make it needlessly complicated and complex. That was one that really annoyed me. It's like, okay, this doesn't need to be that hard. Like, yeah, there's some technical stuff you need to know to start a podcast but like, this is not the thing to focus all of your time and effort and energy on, and a lot of people just like love to go in, and if you can't spend $500 on a mic, like, why are you even podcasting and you need like all this complex setup and whatever. And I think that it has kind of become- the promise of podcasting was always like this democratization of content creation in the audio format. And I think it's become moreso that's, that's become more widespread since back, you know, 2015-16 when we kind of first met, but I think that was one of the big things, I think there was a lot of like, shady marketing advice and stuff going on there. There's a lot of like, super hard selling in Facebook groups and things like that, that were- kind of annoyed a lot of people. And so I kind of wanted to create this community that was like, Okay, let's just like, have an authentic genuine space here where like, I'm not going to just be like hawking my own stuff at you 24/7. And this is going to be more, I don't know that the word, like, inclusive had the meaning that it does today, back then. But that was kind of my feeling like, I just want to create a space where people feel welcome, where they're not gonna get like shouted down by, like, elitists in the space. That was a big thing that annoyed me at the time. And so that was kind of the vision behind that. And I think, you know, when you think about, like, bullshit exists in many different formats, and I think part of that too, then as still now is like, people who didn't really have that much experience trying to capitalize on the podcasting trend. And yeah, that one, I think there's a lot more people doing that now. But there's a lot more actual experts that it's kind of like that gap has kind of grown, so you can kind of tell like, who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.

So you're an audio guy, the podcast has to sound good. I still get pushback from people who say it doesn't have to sound perfect. No, but it has to be listenable. So how can you wrap that up and tell somebody what the podcast needs to sound like for the bare minimum? Aside from getting technical. Okay, it's 16 bit, we can do 44.1. you know, what's it going to sound like in the ears in order to be listable?

I mean, I think it has to be- as a listener, you have to not notice that sound is an issue. So I think it has to become just like, something that somebody would listen to it, and they wouldn't immediately think like, oh, this sounds unprofessional, or amateur in some way. And like, I will say there are niches, if you have literally zero competition on your topic, people will put up with more. And like, if you are the only place to get information on the topic, and your information is good, sure, some people are going to listen to it. But the minute you have one competitor who sounds better than you, almost everybody is going to choose that show over yours. And so I think like there is a bit of a spectrum there. And it depends on how much competition there is. But really where I would like to get people to is like, the sound is not like poor quality of the sound or whatever the quality of the sound, is not noticeable. If anything, it's like, wow, this is like amazing production. But other than that, it's like neutral. And so it's kind of just this like background flavorless, like water, so to speak, where it's like, you drink it, you don't even notice any taste. It's just like, it is what it is. It nourishes me, it hydrates me, whatever, I don't detect anything in there that's distracting me from, you know, whatever the content is.

Matt Cundill  7:53  
And you brought up a great point that you can sound fantastic. And it doesn't have to cost you very much. Says the person with a $700 microphone here. And a $1,500 one in the corner. No, do not spend that. I- I'm doing something different with my microphones. But what would you recommend for somebody who's sort of stuck in the world of microphones, they're gonna go to Best Buy and they're gonna get pushed a Blue Yeti.

Jeremy Enns  8:16  
Yeah, right now I feel like the Shure MB7 is one that's like a great- I say entry level. But like, you can do a lot with that mic. And it's designed specifically for podcasters and content creators in less than ideal environments. And so I have the, the big brother of it, the Shure SM7-B which I would push more people towards, it's actually not that much of a price difference. You can probably get this for $400. The MB7's like maybe 250 or something like that. 300. So, I mean, if the benefit of the MB seven is it has the USB capability. It's got a lot of like fancy software and stuff, but if you know what you're doing, I really like this one, the SM7-B, as does I mean, Joe Rogan, Michael Jackson, James Hetfield of Metallica. The list goes on, this is a very famous mic, and it's not actually that expensive. So for certain like vocal styles, I think this is a great mic that I would recommend for the kind of average person looking to get into audio content creation. I think that Shure MB7 is a great kind of first step into that world.

Matt Cundill  9:11  
And I just entered into the world of the BS because I sort of- to give a little flack towards the Blue Yeti, but the Blue Yeti is a fine microphone if you use it properly.

Jeremy Enns  9:18  
Well, yeah. And I have a friend who used to work for me, his name is Tom Kelly. He has a YouTube channel called Clean Cut Audio that is like super nerdy, like audio engineering stuff. And he did a mic shootout with his co host and one of them was on the Shure SM7-B, the other one of them was on the Blue Yeti, but Tom actually set up his co host with the Blue Yeti in a very like well orchestrated setup. And so the room was not like super crazy treated, but they built like a little mini DIY ISO booth for the microphone. And then he sent it around to a bunch of audio engineers and said like, which one's the Blue Yeti? And almost nobody could get it right. And so you can certainly- if you know what you're doing, like, the microphone is not going to hamper your ability to get great sounding audio.

Matt Cundill  10:01  
If you started the podcast in 2016, like I did, it's a noticeable advantage over others who are starting it 2021-2022. And a lot of that has to do with just the number of podcasts. So back in 2016, there were about what 60, 70,000 podcasts. But today, there's like 4 million. But that's still not a reason to not start a podcast. So how do we mentally jump that hurdle of there's 4 million podcasts, I can't start one. 

Jeremy Enns  10:32  
Yeah I mean, it depends on I think what your goals are, like, why are you starting a podcast in the first place, and I think a lot of people start with like, because it would be fun to do. And it's like, great, do it then. Like, if it's gonna be fun, like, that's, there's your reason right there to start it. And a lot of people like start out that way. And then they want to, you know, grow an audience and monetize it, or whatever. I think if your goal is monetization, podcasting is a terrible place to do that. I think if you have a business and a product or service already, that the podcast is part of your marketing and sales kind of ecosystem. That's fantastic. But if you are looking to become a full time content creator, as a podcaster, I think that's really, really difficult. And it's not to say that nobody does it, and that it's not doable, but it is certainly not easy. And so I would just kind of start with like, what are my expectations out of this? And what am I hoping to get if it's making money, there are far easier ways to do it. That said, if you just really love the medium of podcasting, there are certainly ways you can make money in the long term, I would just say like, this is my like, five year plan here to be able to get to that point, not within six months, I want to be bringing in $1000, $10,000 a month, whatever your goal is. So that would be the first thing I would say. The second thing is like, you look at other mediums out there, whether it's YouTube or blogs, newsletters, Tik Tok, anything else like podcasting is still by far the least crowded. And so there is noise everywhere, there is competition everywhere. And if you want to create anything online or out in the world, whatever it is, if it's not an online type of artistic pursuit, or whatever it is, there is competition, there are other people doing that. And so I think that you kind of just need to get over that and say, like, wherever I choose to play, there are going to be other people doing similar things. And then the next question for you is like, how do I stand out from those people who are doing something similar to me? And so, you know, most topics, most niches have probably at least a dozen shows that are all creating content around the same topic. And I think that what most people do is they don't listen to any of the shows, they don't research any of them, they just go and say like, I'm going to create this because I think this is interesting and cool. And they create something that sounds very generic and very similar to everything else that's out there, which makes it really hard to grow. And you're not really giving anybody a compelling reason to pick your show versus any one of those other ones. So if somebody searches, you know, knitting podcast, or whatever it is, if I'm starting a knitting podcast, I'm going to go search knitting podcasts myself, and I'm going to look at like, Okay, what's the vibe I'm getting from each of these shows? I'm going to listen, maybe not through all of them, maybe maybe I would, depending on how serious I am. And I'm going to just say like, okay, what are the opportunities here for me to create a different type of knitting show than from what people already have on offer? And then that's probably the direction I'm going to go, if that's aligned with you know, the thing I actually want to create. But unfortunately, not many people, I would say the vast majority of people, don't do that kind of competitor or market research. And they end up with something that's really, really hard to market, because there's just no obvious reason for a potential listener to choose them over any of the other options.

Matt Cundill  13:17  
So you're going right into the crux and into the center of podcasting BS, and that is the monetization aspect. And I get into so many conversations with people who say, I don't see the ROI, how am I going to make my money back? How do I monetize this stuff? And your approach has always been, you're doing it wrong, look at this as a marketing opportunity and take from your marketing budget, and make this your marketing spend.

Jeremy Enns  13:47  
Yeah, and I would say like, even in that, I think one of the frustrating things as a business owner, especially when you're earlier on, is you're always looking for like the one thing that will just like, do all your marketing for you. And so I know like I've been through starting my business, now being seven or eight years in, like very many of those things like, Oh, if I just do this, like that's gonna solve all my problems, if I just have a client referral policy, and it's like, okay, that helps for a little bit. But then those referrals dry up, and you need to find a different way to market yourself. And so then it's like, well, if I start a newsletter, or if I start a podcast, whatever. And I think that the smarter way to think about it is that like all of these different platforms, they kind of supplement your larger marketing strategy. And so one of the things that like, yes, podcasting is a great part of your marketing strategy. But today, and this is different from like four or five years ago, people are likely not going to discover you through your podcast, and so today we're I'm kind of coaching people is that like, okay, the podcast is one of the best tools for you to win over superfans and like nurture the people that you have already in your ecosystem to becoming clients and customers. That's going to just happen much faster through podcasting, where people really feel like they get to know you, they can binge through your episodes, all of that, but it's going to be really hard to convert people. So say you are a consultant or you, you know, sell a course or a digital product or something like that, you probably also want to have an email presence that- and the goal is ultimately to get you know, everybody who's on your email list onto the podcast, and everyone who's- who's listening to podcasts on your email list. And that way, you're kind of using each platform for what they're best at. And so you can really like nurture people, develop a relationship with people, demonstrate your expertise through the podcast, and then send those kinds of like targeted, you know, sales emails and things like that, where they can actually just easily click a link to your sales page or to book a time to work with you or whatever. And so I think like, yes, podcasting is a great part of your larger marketing effort. But it's still limited in some ways where people aren't going to discover you through it. And so maybe that's where you're using social media or YouTube or something like that. And it's also not great at kind of getting people to convert directly from that just because of the nature of the platform. There's a lot of kind of friction getting people into it, as well as out of it.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  15:52  
Transcription of the Sound Off Podcast is powered by the Podcast Super Friends, five podcast producers who get together to discuss podcasting. Sharpen your podcast and creation skills by following the show on the Sound Off Podcast's YouTube or Facebook page. The Sound Off Podcast supports Podcasting 2.0, so feel free to send us a boost if you're listening on a newer podcast app. If you don't have a newer podcast app, you can get one at newpodcastapps.com.

Matt Cundill  16:24  
So you brought up newsletters, having one hand wash the other. And for those who have dynamic audio insertion, instead of getting a Verizon ad or Tim Hortons ad, why not use that spot to promote your newsletter or some of your other social assets?

Jeremy Enns  16:40  
Yeah, and the person who does this, I think better than almost anyone, is Ramit Sethi. So his brand is I Will Teach You To Be Rich, just like kind of a scammy name almost, that he acknowledges a lot. He's actually been doing- creating content, I think like 20 plus years, I think he started the brand in his college dorm room or something like that. But I've been binging through, he's kind of reinvented as podcasts in the past couple of years, which he's been doing probably a decade in some form or another. He has a really interesting new format. But he- at the start of every episode, he does a call out to this upcoming week's newsletter. And so it gets inserted across his whole back catalogue of episodes. And he says, Hey, have you ever wondered about you know, this topic? Well, this Saturday, you know, Saturday, September, whatever it is, I'm going to be sending out a newsletter talking about this, you can't get it anywhere else. It's going out just to newsletter subscribers. So sign up at you know, Iwillteachyoutoberich.com/podcastnewsletter, and you can get it there. Now let's get into the episode. And it's such a like, there's urgency built into it because-

Matt Cundill  17:36  
Excitement. 

Jeremy Enns  17:37  
Yeah, and this is the only time and place it's like targeted the date. You're like, oh, that's this Saturday, I can get this thing. And he's already writing the newsletter. And so he's just writing this 30 second ad, inserting it into his whole back catalogue of podcast episodes. And I imagine, I don't know his numbers. But I would imagine he gets a ton of email signups through that, you know, he has a big show. And he has been very successful and put 20 years into to building this brand. But still, I think a lot of people are doing both these things but aren't doing a good job cross pollinating. And there's a huge opportunity there for, I think, a lot of people who have these things kind of already created. 

Matt Cundill  18:09  
You know, that's something that radio has done well for so many years, and that's promoting whatever it's doing. And here we are in podcasting. And I just got excited for a newsletter. But it's almost like the truck and tractor pull. This weekend, a newsletter like you've never read before. It's coming to your inbox on Saturday, Saturday. 

Jeremy Enns  18:29  
I love that. I'm going to wait to hear that- that ad on your show.

Matt Cundill  18:32  
Well I'll be the voice of it. I'd love to be the voiceover of this big newsletter that's coming to everybody's inbox on Saturday. Talk a little bit about competition, because you mentioned competition. And one of the things that I found in podcasting is that we're not competing against each other. You're not competing against the other 4 million podcasts that are out there. We're really competing for people's time. And a lot of people look at the Apple Podcast catalogue and go, Well, I can't get into that niche. I can't get into that territory. And it's it's not it's not really the right thinking before you head in. Right?

Jeremy Enns  19:06  
Yeah, I mean, I think you you hit the nail on the head there with like, and this is true of any type of content, like really, my email inbox is filled up with newsletters that I want to read. Hundreds of newsletters probably at this point. Maybe not hundreds of individual newsletters, but there are certainly like 1000s of issues that I would like probably like to read at some point. There's tons of articles in there, my podcast feed is backlogged, I've got a huge list of YouTube watch later, I've got how many shows on Netflix and Disney plus and like Apple TV, all of these, like there is so much content that all of us are drowning in that like this is really what we're competing with, is for somebody to pick, you know, out of all the stuff that's available to them, essentially for free. Because let's let's even talk about like Netflix, sure there's a monthly payment, but I think most of us treat it as like, well, I'm already subscribed. I'm not like choosing to pay each and every month it just automatically comes out, I can open it up, I have access to it. So like, all of this content is essentially free to us as consumers, and you look at some of what we're competing with. And you think like, okay, every movie that's on Netflix or any of these streaming platforms, like what are the budgets that go in here, these are like, the top storytellers and cinematographers in the world, creating content, all of the best podcasts in the world on a different topic from ours, just you know, any podcast available any YouTube channel available, like all of this is just at our fingertips, and is just as easy to get into as a podcast. And so like, this is what we as content creators and marketers are competing with. And so I think that's the big question is like, what is going to get somebody to click play on your show over all of that other stuff? And I think that where a lot of people get frustrated is they think that they need to be better than any of that other stuff. And I don't think that's the way to think about it at all. I think it's really about being more relevant to the person in a specific moment than anything else. And so there are things, especially if you're a business owner, you're probably more in the education space, and you're trying to help people solve problems, you're trying to teach them something, along those lines. And so I think that that's where we can be more specific and say, Okay, there's this very specific person out there, maybe there's only like, 10,000 people them in the world, they're struggling with this problem. And I know that I can help them solve that problem. And that is more valuable to them than binge watching through three hours of a super highly produced Netflix show. Like, it- because they have that problem, that Netflix show is almost a distraction, and they know it, but if they want to make progress towards this goal they have, like, where are they going to go? Well, they're not going to listen to, you know, the latest true crime show, they're not going to open up Netflix, maybe they're looking at YouTube, maybe they're reading newsletters, things like that. But then we started thinking about like, oh, okay, maybe they are a podcast listener as well. And they are, you know, they have their commute every day where they can't do that other stuff. And that's where our show slots in. And so I think it's really about thinking, like, who can I be more relevant to than the competition? Not like, How can I be better than all of this other content that's available, essentially, for free?

Matt Cundill  21:49  
Do you know what Netflix's biggest competition is? 

Jeremy Enns  21:52  
Sleep, I believe. 

Matt Cundill  21:53  
That is correct. It's such a great question. 

Jeremy Enns  21:57  
Yeah, and I think this is from- I don't know if it was their CEO, or founder, or somebody like that, who has essentially said, like, yeah, we're not worried about Disney Plus, or Apple TV. Like, we're worried about people turning off Netflix to go to sleep. And that's what we're competing against.

Matt Cundill  22:09  
It's just a great way to get people to stop thinking about on demand content as competition against one another. 

Jeremy Enns  22:16  
Yep. 

Matt Cundill  22:17  
So I always use that- I always use that trivia question to get people out of that mindset. Convince me I need to do a newsletter.

Jeremy Enns  22:25  
I think it depends a lot on what your goals are. I think there's two benefits to newsletters, for podcasting in particular. And the one is actually not really for podcasting, it's for the business as a whole. But kind of like I mentioned before, when it comes to getting people to take action, podcasts are just so difficult, because they're often doing something with their hands, they're driving, they're walking, they are not in an environment where they are likely to click through to a sales page, and then read the sales page. And then you know, purchase the product or whatever it is, or even click through to leave a review and whatever. We all know how hard that is. And so there is less friction in newsletters. There's another piece to that, that is also what's known as platform psychology. And so essentially, people behave in different ways, depending on the platform they're using. And so when you're listening to a podcast, you're probably not in buying mode. Whereas when you're in your inbox, I think we all buy things from our emails, like, not every day, but like on a monthly basis, there's something that we're like, oh, that looks interesting, I'm gonna check that out. And maybe I'm gonna go, you know, buy that. And that's why there are so many marketing newsletters from every kind of department store we've ever shopped at, and all this stuff. And so that is a place where people are, we're approaching them with an offer and a request where they're in a mindset that they are likely or at least they're open to taking it. So sales would be the first reason that I think newsletters are valuable. And part of that, of course, you can just get people on your email list and send sales emails when you want, that's probably not going to do as well as if you are regularly sending just useful informational content of some kind, entertaining, whatever it is. And so that's where the kind of like regular newsletter, that's not just pure sales would come in. The other piece is for engaging podcast listeners, existing podcast listeners. And so I think of like a- of a podcast audience, there are people who, you know, literally wait for the episode to drop each and every week, and they like plan their week by it. Every Tuesday is like, you know, whatever show is their favorite show day, and they like get up. And that's part of their routine. They listen to it. But I would say that that's a pretty small percentage of any show's subscriber base or listener base. And so I think where email can really come in handy is just giving that nudge that touch point, to get those people who- maybe they don't listen to every single episode, but they listen to the episodes that feel particularly relevant to them. And so if you're able to meet them in the inbox, maybe they haven't checked their podcast app in a few days, maybe they don't listen to that many shows. Or maybe yours has just got kind of drowned in the feed of of shows they do listen to, and you're able to say, hey, we're this week on the podcast, we're talking about this topic, and if they're like, oh, wow, that's exactly like what I've been thinking about recently. I need to listen to that. You've now kind of like re-engaged that person who might not have have listened to the show otherwise. And so you think about at scale if you have you know You're dealing with 1000s or tens of 1000s of listeners or anything like that, that is going to really boost your overall download numbers. If you're able to reengage people who have like already said, like, Yeah, I'm interested in the show, and especially enough to subscribe to your email list. They've checked it out before, they've listened, they've subscribed to the email list. And so I think like winning those people over each and every week is an important part of marketing and growth that I think a lot of times people think about, like just getting people to listen once, which is the hardest part of podcast marketing, but there's this other part of it, that's like, Okay, once they've listened once, like, how do we get them to keep coming back? And so I think that's where email and newsletters can play a really vital role as well.

Matt Cundill  25:35  
I'm just gonna say- same question, now with YouTube. But I want to- I want to change this a little bit. And I need you to be my therapist for a second, when it comes to- when it comes to video. And that's, I know I need to post my podcasts on YouTube in a full version, because Google Podcasts is going away, and YouTube Music is now going to become the app for that. Unless, of course, they're gonna let me attach an RSS feed. But then I'm convinced by so many people that I need to do Shorts, and create shorter clips and content for more views. I never got into this to do video. What do I do?

Jeremy Enns  26:13  
I take issue with that, like, you need to be on YouTube, you need to be on video. I think that that's a tool that's available, if you want to use it. And I think it can be a powerful tool, I think it can also be an entirely overwhelming feeling that we'd like need to do this thing. And at least personally, like, I tend to resist now, actively resist anything that I feel that kind of like onerous, like somebody else is saying I need to do this, that's, uh, I know, for myself that like, if I feel that it's not going to work for me, like, because I know I'm not gonna be able to consistent- be consistent with it. And there are other things, like there are so many tactics that we can use to grow our shows that we don't need to do any- we can ignore any single one of those and find something else that works for us. And so that's something that I think there's a lot of opportunity for video, but I think you really need to go all in on video and you need to like- when you get into video, then you start need to- you look at all these people who have like fancy YouTube, you know, sets and backgrounds and things like that. I think those people who take video that seriously are going to get the most out of video versus people who are just like, Okay, well, I've got my standard office, it doesn't look that interesting. It's not visually engaging, and it's just, you know, an unedited, like, version of my podcast up on YouTube. I don't think that's going to get much benefit for anyone. And so usually where I'm counseling people is like, okay, YouTube, there's some opportunity there, but you like, really need to learn YouTube, like you need to think about like, Okay, I am essentially now becoming a YouTuber as well. And I need to learn what are the rules that govern YouTube and its algorithm so that I can play by those and give myself the best chance of success? And you start to look at like, Okay, well, how much time is that going to take? And then there's also, you know, video takes much longer to edit and produce than podcasting does and like, is that something I am both like, have the bandwidth for and am also excited to learn about? I mean, you can outsource it if you have a really big budget, but at some point, I think like us as creators still need to learn the basics, the fundamentals, so that we can kind of dictate the strategy. And I think that that's not for everyone. And that's totally fine. I don't think like audio only podcasts are going away or going anywhere. And so I think that you can still like commit to doing an audio only show and just change your strategy- or not change your strategy up in this case, by not adopting YouTube, and just saying like, Okay, I'm going to tailor my strategy around the fact that people are not going to discover me through YouTube. So where are they going to discover me through? Maybe that's guesting on other shows, maybe that's social media, whatever it is, maybe I only do YouTube shorts, but they I'm not repurposing them from my show. I'm just creating them as one offs. And that's, you know, an entry point into my ecosystem. But there's lots of ways that you can you can think about YouTube, I think, you know, any show that's- that's grown at this point has- likely YouTube has not been a big part of it until the past few years. And I think that's still going to be viable in the future.

Matt Cundill  28:51  
So FOMO is really the root of most podcast marketing BS. 

Jeremy Enns  28:56  
I would say so. 

Matt Cundill  28:58  
Yeah, but we had a lot of it at Podcast Movement this year, there was a lot of video talk between the Coleman Insights presentation and YouTube making their announcements. Felt like I needed to become a YouTuber at the end of it, and it's just not true.

Jeremy Enns  29:10  
No, I would not say so at all. And I mean, I think there's other people saying that too. And I mean audio- Every medium has its purists. Audio certainly has a lot of purists as well, and I don't think there's a lot of people in that camp who are not buying into that you need to be on YouTube camp. So I think there's there's still lots of room for audio only shows, and there's lots of things that like- some of the best podcasts out there, and I think about audio dramas and things like that, like there's no way for those to become interesting like video first shows, and like part of the magic is that it's audio, and I think there's- I have a lot of friends who do YouTube and podcasting both very well. And they've kind of come to the conclusion that like you produce these things differently. Like what makes a great podcast is- does not often do well on YouTube, like YouTube rewards fast paced, like shorter timespan, like a lot of like value in a short amount of time. And I think that's great in terms of like, communicating information in a concise way. But I think like, a lot of the things that make my favorite shows my favorite is that they're not just like, I'm not listening to them to get- to download a bunch of information into my brain. Like there- I know there are faster ways to do that. I'm more listening for an experience. And I think that that's something that podcasting is great for, is hearing a more unstructured conversation, is getting into the weeds and like really digging into in a nuanced way, a topic rather than just like, here's the five things you need to know in 12 minutes or less, and being able to actually explore topics in more depth. And I think that that's something that if you're thinking like what- how do I create a great audio only podcast, it's like, well, you know, use it for what podcasting can do that is unique to podcasting. Unlike other mediums, and I think if you don't want to do that, like maybe there is a better place for creating, you know, YouTube first content or things like that. That's kind of my opinion on on audio only podcast is like, if you want to win in that kind of realm, like lean into the strengths of audio only, and don't try to like compromise and kind of do everything with one platform.

Matt Cundill  31:06  
So at the end of 2022, I thought to myself, podcast marketing is really changing a lot. I know we need to discover new ways to do it. I know what we did in the past is not applicable to what we're doing today. I've seen a lot of people in podcasting pivot, what has triggered all this when it comes to marketing? What has come into the marketing space that has made us go, we need to do it differently? And I can point the finger a little bit at AI, I can point the finger a little bit at automation, and tech, technological advancements. But there's some other exterior stuff going on. Maybe it's video. What caused you to pivot?

Jeremy Enns  31:48  
I mean, to be honest, I don't think I have pivoted that much in my approach to marketing. I think that like one of the things I've observed is that I love podcasting, and I'm a longtime podcaster and in my career is in podcasting. But I think like podcasting, as an industry is just kind of dumb in terms of marketing, where it's like really immature, where we didn't need to market until the past three or four years. And so there's just like, not a lot of nuanced thought around how marketing actually works as a industry and among podcasters. And like that's, you know, not a slight against anybody in the podcasting industry. There's some super smart people in marketing as well now, but I don't think that was a necessity in the past. And so a lot of the people who had a lot of success as podcasters, were marketers because they had businesses somewhere else. And so they brought a lot of that knowledge into podcasting. But as a industry, there wasn't a high level of kind of like dialogue around like, what are marketing best practices? What even is marketing? How does it factor into what we do here? And I think that there's some pieces like- there were people in public radio, who had a very deep sense idea around marketing, especially from like a show development, and like differentiation kind of side of things, concept development, which I think is actually one of the podcast industry strengths. Not that the average indie podcaster thinks about that as much. But I think like show development and concept development is becoming more kind of mainstream topic, which I'm really excited about, because that's really kind of getting into this conversation about differentiating yourself from the other, you know, countless interview shows on any given topic under the sun. But I think like, most of my marketing knowledge is not anything new. It's like stuff that's been around, that would have worked for hundreds of years. And so like, at the end of the day, marketing is about like finding people, getting in front of them, like the people who your show is a good fit for, or whatever your product is that you sell, and, you know, kind of convincing them that like, Hey, I've got this thing that you would benefit from, do you want to check it out? And like, it really can be as simple as that. And I think when you start to like simplify it away from all this, like, all these data and stats, and like Facebook advertising all these tools and everything, it's like, no, what we need to do is like, who are the people we're trying to get in front of? How do we get in front of them? And how do we present our show in a way that gets them excited about it? And it's like, if we can do that we're gonna grow our shows. And we can use tech and we can use tools and you know, data can provide some insights as to whether what we're doing is effective or not, but like, it's really a simple process. And I think that that's never gonna go away with marketing of any kind. It's just like the tools we use to do that maybe become more efficient, or allow us to reach more people or allow us to spend money in different ways to get in front of them, or whatever that might be.

Matt Cundill  34:19  
You might have answered this question. And it was gonna be a two word question. Paid social. Yes, no?

Jeremy Enns  34:28  
I have not seen any compelling data to support advertising the show directly. I would say that- so from what I've seen, this was in Katy Lauer's Pod the North newsletter, she had an interview with somebody, I can't remember his name, from an agency. He'd done a ton of experimenting, spent a lot of money on social advertising for I think, as well as like Google and display advertising, stuff like that. And I think the average was like a $20 cost per new subscriber. And when I compared that- I've done a lot of experimenting with newsletter advertising, and usually I'm at like a two to $3. So it's basically 10 times as expensive to get a podcast subscriber as a newsletter subscriber. So what that says to me is like, if I have an advertising budget, I'm 100%, spending all of it on getting people onto the newsletter. And once I get them on the newsletter, then I can, every single week, can put the show in front of them, I can craft an onboarding sequence that gets, you know, some potential like best kind of entry level, or entry point episodes in front of that person. And I'm going to then get them into the podcast on the back end, where I have way more opportunities to do so. So that would be- I think there's plenty of opportunity in social advertising, but I wouldn't point people directly to the podcast in most cases.

Matt Cundill  35:38  
So a couple shout outs, we'll give one to Katie for Pod the North, great newsletter. Your newsletter, by the way, everybody can connect to those newsletters inside the show notes of this episode. Also, the Podcast Academy, you're a noted resource, you've done some mentorship programs. And as well, you've spent some time walking us through some marketing for those who are part of the Podcast Academy. Thank you. I love that. Do you work with them often?

Jeremy Enns  36:02  
We do probably a few kind of collaborations a year. I'm doing another one- we're recording this end of September. And I think it's actually in two weeks from now, I'm doing an AMA in their Slack community. And so we've- I think we've done like three or four collaborations so far. So I'm sure there will be many more in the future as well.

Matt Cundill  36:17  
Excellent, I'm gonna look for that. I'm part of that Slack community. So we'll look for you there, that's gonna be a lot of fun. Want to ask you, because today, I was surprised to find out that you're in Barcelona. So how do you find the time difference between Europe and North America? Or does it matter?

Jeremy Enns  36:31  
I love it. I always say, this is like a little bit of a privileged comment. But I always say, like, the best productivity hack is just move to Europe, because you have like, until 2-3pm, your you've just got like the whole morning and early afternoon, just like focus on whatever your, like, deep work projects are without worrying about email or anything else. I always feel like I'm just in like reactive mode whenever I'm back in North America. My partner and I, we've been traveling full time for the past seven years at this point now, five of which together. We have spent most- we got locked down in Europe during COVID. She's American, I'm Canadian. So we- I couldn't get into the states during COVID. She couldn't get into Canada, so we kind of had to stay somewhere other than either of those countries. So we ended up in Europe and kind of spent the better part of two years or maybe even two and a half years on the continent. And we'd already- always loved it already. But after that we were like, you know, what are the- we were thinking about moving back to either Canada or the US. And then we started thinking about like, well, like, what if we started looking at- what are the other options? Could we move to Europe somewhere? And it's been a few years of kind of like waiting through immigration stuff and visas. And now we're in the process of actually settling in Spain. So the plan is to be here permanently. And yeah, in terms of time zones, I think it depends a little bit. When I've had more client heavy work and things like that, it's been more of a pain. But now where it's a little bit more async with my schedule, I absolutely love it.

Matt Cundill  37:46  
Okay, thanks. Because he answered a bunch of questions on why I feel very uncomfortable in the early morning hours in Europe. And that's really the time I should be writing newsletters and communicating and doing my own personal writing. But I find by three in the afternoon after I've had a you know, a vermouth and lunch, which is generally the time we have lunch in Europe, that, you know, I start to get slammed with a lot of client requests and the alcohol begins to wear off and I get a little bit irritable.

Jeremy Enns  38:10  
Yeah, I front load all that stuff. And then- there's- we're going to need to find a balance, because it is so easy here to then feel like you need to stay online till 9-10pm. At which point it's still only, I mean, Pacific Time, like, mid afternoon. So that's something that- that I definitely need to work on as we kind of get permanently settled here. But yeah, I do love the mornings for sure.

Matt Cundill  38:30  
Excellent. Jeremy, thanks so much for being on the podcast. It's great to connect with you finally and talk a lot about podcast marketing. 

Jeremy Enns  38:37  
Yeah. 

Matt Cundill  38:37  
Thank you.

Jeremy Enns  38:38  
Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, Matt. This has been, I mean, a long time coming I would say, since back in 2016 or whenever we first connected in the Facebook group, and it's been good to keep in touch with you at Podcast Movement when we run into each other and- and online. And this has been a lot of fun. 

Matt Cundill  38:51  
And shortly in Barcelona.

Jeremy Enns  38:53  
Shortly in Barcelona. That's right.

Tara Sands (Voiceover)  38:54  
The Sound Off Podcast is written and hosted by Matt Cundill. Produced by Evan Surminski. Edited by Chloe Emond-Lane. Social media by Aidan Glassey. Another great creation from the Soundoff Media Company. There's always more at soundoffpodcast.com.