Melissa Dilkes-Pateras: The Laundry Lesbian

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  0:02  
The Women of Ill Repute with your hosts Wendy Mesley and Maureen Holloway.

Maureen Holloway  0:07  
I don't love housework.

Wendy Mesley  0:10  
Yeah, I don't know. I don't love it either.

Maureen Holloway  0:15  
I mean, we could never be tradwives.

Wendy Mesley  0:18  
You mean the women who choose to be stay at home wives and mothers? The ones who believe that the man is and should be the head of the household? I obviously agree.

Maureen Holloway  0:26  
Yes, in a heteronormal universe. We could never do that. For so many reasons. Although I will admit that I do find this whole movement, this tradwife movement, fascinating and scary, but I will admit to one particular obsession. 

Wendy Mesley  0:42  
So, I can guess- it's laundry, right? Laundry? 

Maureen Holloway  0:46  
It is! It's laundry. It is. 

Wendy Mesley  0:48  
You love doing laundry.

Maureen Holloway  0:51  
I do, I do. 

Wendy Mesley  0:53  
You even like to iron. 

Maureen Holloway  0:56  
I am not alone. A lot of people like to iron. It's meditative. It restores order to chaos. Listen, I love getting stains out. And I- and I love cleaning, and I love pressing, and nobody knows that better than Melissa. The laundry lesbian.

Wendy Mesley  1:15  
Yeah, I have a very, very faint recollection of this.

Maureen Holloway  1:19  
Yeah, that's- were you not entertained? I had a dinner party. And after dinner, I said, let's go watch the laundry lesbian. But there's more to you than that. Isn't there, Melissa? 

Melissa Pateras  1:29  
I hope so. Yeah.

Wendy Mesley  1:37  
So Melissa Pateras, she's- she's a social service worker. She lives in Ontario with her wife and three kids. She started posting laundry tip videos to Facebook, then TikTok, and she's got like millions of followers now. Well,

Maureen Holloway  1:50  
Well, Melissa, you wrote a book a dirty guide to a clean home, and you've even ended up- you were on the CBS Morning Show at one point, and I know you've been mentioning Maria Shriver's Sunday paper. You're a big deal. I'm so excited to have you.

Melissa Pateras  2:05  
Thank you.

Wendy Mesley  2:06  
Yeah. The laundry lesbian. So welcome. You're both like fixated on laundry. Like, what- what is it? I'm not, maybe- maybe it's a normal thing, is it?

Melissa Pateras  2:17  
It's pretty split. I think you either really love it, or you really hate it. I don't know that there's a lot of people in the in between. I think a lot of people find it sort of relaxing and soothing and other people do not. But I think it also depends on how much laundry you have to do. I think a lot of single people also say they love to clean and people who never drive say I love driving, right? But I think if you have a lot of kids and in a big household laundry might not be very fun. It's interesting, because nobody likes to iron anymore. I do. And you do. But there are very few people that even iron anymore. So that seems to be sort of a lost art.

Wendy Mesley  3:05  
All I remember about ironing is, like, my mother had us iron dish cloths for a while, and then we completely stopped that. And pillowcases. But there were people that that actually matters to.

Maureen Holloway  3:17  
Yeah, me.

Melissa Pateras  3:19  
Yeah, it was funny, I was- I was just ironing my son's pillowcases last week. But yeah, people aren't doing that anymore. And I think it's a matter of feeling like they just don't have the time/bandwidth for that. It's steamers. It's just living with wrinkles. It's buying anti wrinkle fabric. People just don't want to iron anymore.

Maureen Holloway  3:44  
When did this start for you? Were you a tidy little girl?

Melissa Pateras  3:47  
You know, when I was little- and I did spend a lot of time with my grandmother who was very regimented in cleaning. I mean, she had a very, you know, specific day for each task. So it was like everybody knew that, whatever, Tuesday's was floors, and, you know, she just- she did something every single day. And I just was sort of in awe of her, because she was super handy, but she would make her own stuff. She would never waste anything. Like my grandfather's underwear were always- her duster or his undershirts, and she just didn't waste anything. She just- she had a really clean house, but it wasn't- it wasn't like you couldn't touch anything or move anywhere. It was just always clean, always tidy. I loved it. I just- and- and it's funny because my sisters are not like me at all. And we all spent time with my grandmother and they just didn't pick it up like I did. I just- I loved it. I loved doing laundry with her. She used to have a wringer. So you know, I used to be at the other side, you know, catching the flattened things coming out and I thought that was great. I just- I loved spending time with her and watching what she did. And I picked it up.

Maureen Holloway  5:03  
I want to ask you, if- I've got so many- I want to ask you some practical stuff, but I'm gonna save that for later. But you're known as the laundry lesbian, so I think it was interesting that you've incorporated your- your sexuality into your message. So how did that come about? I mean, it's really nobody's business, but you- you're political about it, and not- not sharply. But- but humorously and- and you make it clear that you are, you know, a lesbian. 

Melissa Pateras  5:29  
Yeah, I mean, because when- I think when I- when I first started doing stuff online, you know, you get mixed comments. And it was the people watching that sort of branded me the laundry lesbian, because it's not like I was shy about it. I didn't necessarily even talk about it until people started to say it. And it's like, yeah, and I also think, because of how I look, people are a bit surprised, because they are sort of thinking that I should be just doing DIY, I should be talking about tools. And why does a person that looks like this, do laundry. So I think that they're sort of expecting, you know, Bob Vila, and then they're getting a little bit of Martha Stewart and they're a bit confused as to how- what's going on. And I think at the beginning of TikTok and social media, I was just like, it doesn't matter. You know, like anybody can do this. And I didn't expect- I wasn't trying to be this laundry and cleaning guru. I just didn't realize how many people struggle with it. I didn't realize how many people didn't know how to do laundry, or didn't know how to clean, or what cleaning products to buy. So that's really where it came from, was just what people wanted to know. So I tell them.

Wendy Mesley  6:46  
Yeah, so it all started during COVID, I think, right? You did a spoof video about- which I, you know, it was hilarious, because- because it was true. I particularly liked the- when you were kicking the back of the- it was adults acting like kids. And- and it was- there you were, kicking the back of the- of the- the car seat, and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But then- but then it took off. And you're funny. And it's- it's helpful. So I don't know, does it- did it really change your life?

Melissa Pateras  7:16  
This has- this has been wild. I mean, I would have never thought, certainly at first, I just thought I would be funny online for something to do. It was fun. It was- it was just being silly. And you know, sometimes the kids were involved, sometimes they weren't. And then the first laundry video I did was supposed to be a joke. Because my cleaning in my laundry has always been very private, where I've always known, it's a bit weird. And only a few people, if they sort of walked through the house and a closet door might be open that they say anything or ever know it. So then when I finally found this platform where I could be out with my love of laundry and cleaning, it was wild, I couldn't believe like I said, How many people are interested in it, I just couldn't believe it. And again, how many people actually struggle with it, because we're sort of in a weird generation where there's a certain age where you learned stuff from your parents. And then there's this other generation who your parents did absolutely everything for you to for whatever reason, maybe to make up for everything that they had endured as children. And so then we went through a whole thing where we've never taught our kids how to do laundry, how to take care of themselves, how to be adults. And then these people are all standing here who don't have cable television, don't read newspapers don't need read magazines, so they don't know what to buy when they get to the grocery store for laundry and all those things. So they're pretty confused. They're like, wait a second, I actually don't know how to adult. I just wasn't taught so it sort of came from that like, you know, I like to use my platform to teach you things that maybe you never learned. Just maybe you were never taught for whatever reason. And that's that's sort of where it comes from.

Maureen Holloway  9:11  
Melissa, you found love in this whole process. Didn't you? Don't mean to pry, but you've been very straightforward. You had a bad breakup. Fill us in, tell us- give us the- pour us some tea.

Melissa Pateras  9:22  
I was just separated. When- once I was on TikTok, I had been separated for a bit, and I just was scrolling, and at the time, I didn't understand TikTok, you know, I didn't really get that people were dating. I didn't know people were messaging each other. That's- I didn't do that. I didn't read my messages. And I just found my now partner on TikTok, and she was super funny. And I was like, Oh my God, this woman is great. I'm just gonna follow her. And so we sort of followed each other and that was it until, you know, she- she had actually messaged me, but of course, I didn't read my messages. And she ended up dueting- or sorry, she did a video about me. And then I dueted her back, which is like, I take her videos side by side. And then anyways, when I talked about her on a few lives that I did, and then when I went to finally messaged her, I realized she had already messaged me months and months before. And that's how it started. We just talked, and then we moved over to sort of FaceTime and you know, it was the pandemic, and she was in Australia, and she couldn't get here, she couldn't leave her country. We ended up having to hire a lawyer, and- in order to get an exemption, which was sort of a stretch to get that, because we had never met. And then yeah, I mean, history is crazy. And then you know, our first date is me picking her up from the airport and driving to our new home 40 minutes later. So it was crazy. It wasn't something that I had ever done before. I had never- this wasn't who I was or what I did, but it was 10 months of talking through FaceTime. And then we bought a house on FaceTime. And then she moved here and that was it. 

Maureen Holloway  11:19  
That's incredible.

Wendy Mesley  11:20  
It's all crazy. Like, your book is crazy. Your love story is crazy. It's- it's- it's kind of amazing. And then I look at your book cover. And I'm trying to figure out- like, it's you with a caulk gun- and you make lots of caulk jokes. And there's stuff coming out of the caulk gun. Yeah, like, what's the- what's- what is happening on that book cover?

Melissa Pateras  11:44  
That started because, you know, like laundry talk was sort of the first one. And then we sort of moved into clean talk, I started to sort of talk about tools. And, you know, how to- what tools are what, because again, that was something that I think a lot of people don't know, how to use tools, they're afraid of them or, you know, again, wondering how other people know how to do things, and feeling like they might be the only one who doesn't, because you know, you go online and everybody's house is clean, and everybody's DIY-ing things and why can't I? So I- towards the beginning, I did talk a lot about very simple things that you can do around your house maintenance wise, like caulking. And of course, that was a pretty easy joke, depending on where you're from, because it does depend on the pronunciation. But in North America the joke really works. And it was, you know, white caulk, black caulk, silicone, you know, and so it was really easy, and people got a laugh out of it, but at the same time, realize that that is actually something that they should be doing at their home. And you know, when when your bathtubs looking grungy at, or, you know, it's also not something that lasts a lifetime, because a lot of people will move into a house and think like, Oh, why? Why does that look like that? And it's like, well, when's the last time you redid your COC? And they're like, What? What do you mean, I didn't know. I, like, nobody likes old cop. And then sort of that's, that's how the jokes kind of came out. So you know, I did a lot of bad and again, it was sort of to try to make housework fun. That's why I talk a lot about balls. Yeah, hairy balls. One hairy balls, you know, balls, dryer dryer balls. And it's like, and then there's, there's blue balls and that sort of thing. So it was just again, it was just a way to sort of, you know, have fun with sort of a thing is the same thing with folding. Because a lot of people don't think of folding as, you know, a fun activity. It's a chore, it's horrible. And it's like, you know, the whole time I'm folding, I'm thinking, ugh, now I have to put it away. So, you know, I would fold to music and stuff just to sort of make fun of it. And, you know, also to teach people different ways of folding rather than just the standard, you know, but what you've always done.

Maureen Holloway  14:05  
Did you follow Marie Kondo at all?

Melissa Pateras  14:07  
No, I- not really. I mean, I knew who she was, I didn't know a lot about her actually, until people started writing in the comments is when I really started to sort of watch her more, which is interesting. So a lot of her folding techniques are different than mine, because hers have to sort of stand on their own and that sort of thing. Whereas mine are more, you know, functional and changing up the folds for whatever space you have. So there isn't like one jean fold. Because I have a jean fold and that might not work for you because you only have blue jeans and you only want to- you only know the difference between your jeans because of the pockets. So for you I'd show you a pocket out fold. Whereas somebody else might be different. So I don't know. I just- I- again, I didn't- I didn't know so many people were into folding, I didn't know that no one knows how to fold a fitted sheet. I didn't really realize that.

Maureen Holloway  15:05  
But fitted sheets- 

Wendy Mesley  15:06  
A fitted sheet? I thought it was a- 

Maureen Holloway  15:08  
Go ahead. 

Wendy Mesley  15:13  
A fitted sheet? I thought it was like the bottom sheet. 

Melissa Pateras  15:15  
Yeah, that's the fitted sheet. 

Wendy Mesley  15:17  
Oh, okay. Sorry. 

Melissa Pateras  15:18  
Yeah. 

Wendy Mesley  15:19  
You can tell I'm an expert.

Maureen Holloway  15:20  
I know. there are there are a lot of different styles of fitted sheets too, which is really frustrating. Sometimes they're elasticized all the way around, sometimes just at the corners. If you will indulge me, both of you, Melissa, because I'm going to ask you and Wendy, because I know this is not your, you know, area of enthusiasm. But I have so many questions, that- practical questions, and then we'll get back to the- just maybe the more socio- socially relevant but so, whites versus darks. I was always brought up you had to divide them, and my son- who's an expert in everything, by the way- told me no, with cold water wash, you just throw everything in. And to me, that's the most irresponsible thing you can do to your laundry. So whites- whites and darks, separate, yes or no?

Melissa Pateras  16:10  
So this is- okay. Yes, but- but there's a whole backstory to that, this is a whole rabbit hole right now, because it's a generation of, I want to do it quick. I want to get it done. And that- who's doing that? Who's separating? They- you know, because maybe they didn't watch their mom doing the laundry. So they didn't know that she actually separated it. At the very least you want to do darks, lights, whites, they require different water temperatures. So they should be separated. And the problem is, is we've got fast fashion. So we don't have this desire to take care of our clothes for longevity, because we can just go buy another $5 t shirt, who cares if it gets wrecked? So there's a- there's a- it's sort of a disconnect there. So yeah, we've got a generation of non sorters. They can't be bothered. Everybody wants everything quick, fast, easy, no thinking about it and don't want to spend the day doing laundry. So they shove it all into one machine. Or maybe they're students and they want to save money at the laundromat, right? Because we have to pay for each load. So I'm just going to jam it all in together. But yeah, but our generation wants to keep our things for a long time. And we want them to look good every time we put them on. 

Wendy Mesley  17:30  
That's a big maybe, but mostly, yes, you should sort. So I have a- I have a related question, which is about a wine stain. I heard all the club soda, which you say no. And I heard the- the vinegar and you say yes, but then you said something else, which was new to me. So how do you get rid of a red wine stain?

Melissa Pateras  17:49  
Generally the red wine is vinegar. But it sort of depends on where you've spelt the wine. So if it's like on a carpet then it's vinegar and heat, so I put the iron, which not everybody has anymore. Put the iron on, and they- the- the heat and the steam draw out the wine, but if it's on a shirt, then yeah, you could soak it in vinegar and that takes care of it. 

Maureen Holloway  18:14  
Okay. White vinegar, not red vinegar.

Melissa Pateras  18:21  
Just regular old vinegar, and even now, they're coming- there's cleaning vinegar, which is a higher acidity, and there's- there's so much out there now, but- but again, going back to basics, you don't need a ton of stuff. I think that's my main thing, is that there's a million products, but you really don't need that many. Just get back to basics.

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  18:48  
The Women of Ill Repute. 

Maureen Holloway  18:50  
I've started using laundry strips, which- because they're apparently envi- well, they are envir- more environmentally sound, but I just don't feel like- so my question to you: strips versus liquid, or versus powder. When it comes to laundry soap, what do you- what turns your crank?

Melissa Pateras  19:08  
Yeah, okay, so unfortunately, the strips don't work. They work- so I think what a lot of people don't realize is that water does 50% of the cleaning. So even if you don't use any detergent, 50% of the work gets done by the water. So sometimes people are a little bit not sure how good their detergent is. But you know, I've tested all of them. I haven't found a strip that does any better than water. They're all- they all perform equally as well as water, and I want them to work. I do. The technology for strips isn't there yet. There's a new product called tiles, which is amazing. They it's a Procter and Gamble product and it's a tile and it takes from strips but it's incredible. But if we look at just the standard like a pod, you know or flings or whatever the called right your laundry pods liquid and powder. They're all they they sort of come down to you know costs and what you're using them for. So again, for stain remover, I don't really buy stain remover, I use my detergent, but I can only do that if I have liquids so I prefer a liquid. I don't have to worry about it not dissolving clumping. Maybe the pod not dissolving and sticking to something so I like a liquid it easily dissolves and I use my liquid detergent to pretreat my stains because of course it has all of the ingredients for stain so I don't buy stain removers there. They're just a detergent in a spray bottle there's virtually no difference so I mean I may be used dawn on an old grease stain that I've gone ahead and dried and set it in but for the most part I just use like Tide or Purcell, like a quality detergent, and I put it directly on the stain. I let it sit for 30 minutes to overnight and then I just wash it. So that'll always take care of 90-95% of your stains.

Maureen Holloway  21:01  
I love this. I love this. I'm in heaven.

Wendy Mesley  21:03  
Maureen is writing all of this down. She loves all of this laundry stuff, she's writing notes. 

Maureen Holloway  21:09  
I have more! I have more.

Wendy Mesley  21:12  
But I'm wondering like- yeah, no well we'll go back to that in a sec, but I'm just wondering, you- you just mentioned Dawn and Tide, you're like huge into Dawn and Tide. 

Melissa Pateras  21:20  
I am.

Wendy Mesley  21:21  
But how do we know- like we- we do this because we love it, but we would also like some money, so what would you do when Dawn or Tide comes along and says, hey Melissa, we'll give you like, oodles of money, just keep promoting it. How do we know what you like, and- and what you make money for?

Melissa Pateras  21:36  
So I- I do- I do have a partnership with Procter and Gamble. However, my specific partnership is, I'm still going to talk about all of the products that I like. So I am not one of those creators that just does paid ads anywhere I can, because I only will promote things that I actually use, and actually believe in, and have actually tested. So everybody knows, yeah, I- sure I'm a Tide, you know, partner, but I talk about Purcell more than I have talked about anything else. I love Purcell. And for a long time Purcell was number one for clean and stains then it was Tide. And surprisingly, number three is Kirkland. 

Wendy Mesley  22:19  
Costco. 

Melissa Pateras  22:20  
Yeah, so I talk about what works. Yeah, Costco, because it's like, made by Purcell. Those are the top three detergents on the market. And I talk about them because the top three detergents on the market. I show them in my videos, I talk about stuff that I use. There happens to be a lot of P&G products that I just really love.

Maureen Holloway  22:41  
I have- I'm trying to eliminate them. This is- this is what has more to do with municipal politics, believe it or not, but clotheslines, which were a staple of our grandmothers, are no longer allowed in most neighborhoods. What do you think about that, Melissa? 

Melissa Pateras  22:58  
I know. 

Wendy Mesley  22:59  
Really? Wow. 

Melissa Pateras  23:00  
It is- It is funny, because I think most of us, no matter where you grew up, if you're of a certain age, everybody had a clothesline. And my partner, especially coming from Australia, they don't own dryers. Very rarely do they have an actual dryer because everybody puts their clothes on the line, whereas we don't because it takes too long. It's too much work. And the municipality say they're an eyesore. They're ugly, so we don't want to allow them. And it's tricky, because it's easy to say, well, I would if the township allowed me, but the reality is that again, we are in this time, or this generation, where people are like, I am not going to carry my laundry out in a basket, put them outside, wheel the thing out, then take them back in, or I don't like crispy jeans. It's tricky. I love sheets on the line. I think there's nothing smells better than that. That's- people are forgetting about that, there aren't a lot of people who know what that outside smell is.

Maureen Holloway  24:02  
Can I ask some more? I know- I've always- I could- I could do a two hour special with Melissa. So I like to iron, but I'm confused about starch. What is starch? Is it good for you? Is it bad for you? I mean, I use it. But I'm not- I don't really know what I'm doing.

Melissa Pateras  24:18  
I do too. But my friend is- one of my really good friends. He- he runs a very bougie dry cleaner in New York City and him and I differ on this. He always teases me, I'll send him a picture of me ironing and then he always responds like, you're at it again, grandma, because starch is sort of this old school thing and I use it because my mom and my grandma used it and I like the look and the feel of starch. I like the way it looks. I think it protects the clothes. My friend on the other hand is like, you're crazy, just iron, just use an ironing spray, you know, but I liked the stiffness of starch. So I think It comes down to personal preference.

Maureen Holloway  25:02  
But it's not bad for you. 

I like all of those things. But I'm curious, is it?

Melissa Pateras  25:06  
No, no. And it's not- there is a split, right? Some people say that the starch isn't great for your clothes. But listen, we've been using starch for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's- in terms of the longevity of an article of clothing, it's fine. If you want a crisp, pressed look, then I always recommend starch. I use double starch. 

Maureen Holloway  25:31  
Yeah! 

Melissa Pateras  25:33  
Yeah.

Wendy Mesley  25:34  
What's the stupidest thing you've ever heard? Like- you were talking earlier about folding jeans, with pockets, without pockets, whatever. But there's this thing about putting jeans in the freezer. And that's like, I would never do that. There's no room in my freezer for it. 

Maureen Holloway  25:49  
Why would you- why? 

Melissa Pateras  25:51  
That was sort of- all of this kind of stems, it's a bit of like a green washing background. It's kind of tricky, because the CEO of Levi's said that he hadn't washed his jeans in 10 years. And so it was just this environmental, you don't need to wash your jeans. And the reality is, is they still touch your legs, they still touch the subway and the bus and the seat and the chair and everything in the environment. And no, you don't need to wash your jeans as often as your underwear, but you do need to wash them. And nothing happens in the freezer. Nothing happens. It makes them cold and it- and it makes them nothing, nothing is happening. It's not killing anything, it's- they've still got dirt and they still got germs on them. But that was just a thing that came out of the Levi's thing. Then Tommy Hilfiger picked it up. And all these big brands were sort of competing for how dirty your jeans can be, which was so bizarre. I like to dry clean my jeans, because that's the least amount of fading that's going to happen with jeans, it's the one thing that I do always, if you've got like a nice pair of jeans that are dark, and you want to keep them dark, then dry cleaning is the best. But I think that people don't understand water temperature and what water temperature does, because of our history, because of our detergents. And because the way if we were taught how to do laundry, it was like boil it, it's the only way to get it clean, where- and the detergents didn't work in cold water. Right? So now we use cold water. But then it gets a bit confusing because people think warm water gets it cleaner, but warm water is the leading cause of fading. So you should always be washing cold unless you're doing whites. But you know, people don't know that, they didn't learn it, or it doesn't- you know, it doesn't make sense. Because you know, your grandmother's in the background saying boil the water, boil the water.

Wendy Mesley  27:41  
Not my grandmother, you obviously never met my grandmother. I wish I'd learned how to do- to do all of these things. Because like I'm of a generation where all the girls went to Home Ec, and all the guys went to duel class or whatever it was called. 

Maureen Holloway  27:56  
Shop. 

Wendy Mesley  27:57  
Shop. It was called shop. And it's kind of- yeah, it's ridiculous. And both of these things- like I hope that you managed to make it popular. 

Melissa Pateras  28:04  
I agree, I did both. So we did a 50/50. So we did half shop and half Home Ec, where I think we were sewing shorts. And then we were making a bowl or- or a checkerboard or something in the woodshop. But, you know, I- I feel like I'm the last generation of people that know what a bandsaw is, you know, because when they don't know tools, people are not able to do for themselves anymore.

Maureen Holloway  28:31  
This is so- so this brings- brings us back to where we kind of started. So when we were getting ready to interview you, Melissa, I was actually listening to podcast about tradwives, which is how I went down that rabbit hole. And it doesn't apply to any of us, that's for sure. But there are a lot of young women, you know, say in their 20s, who are reacting to the way that- we're different generations, but we were all sort of brought up with the idea that you know, being a girl boss is what you want to be, you want to have a home, but you want to be successful and financially independent. And now there's a- not a generation but a number of young women who are eschewing that, and saying I choose to be a stay at home traditional wife, and will defer to my husband who's the breadwinner. And this- and the irony is that a lot of these women are influencers, and are- are making money doing what you do, Melissa, with- with TikTok videos and so on. Like I said off the top of the show, I find this fascinating and frightening that there's this new wave. I had to kind of understand where it's coming from. But I'm wondering what- if- what you think of this and why is it happening?

Melissa Pateras  29:40  
Ah, you know, I think it's tricky because over the years we went from- it's- it's hard because it has a lot to do with wants and needs. And if you think back to, you know, our parents, they were never really concerned how ugly the couch was, how new it was. And like keeping up with the Joneses. The problem is is the Joneses have changed, right? So our parents, like my parents said to us, you know, we never owned a new appliance, like we just bought used. And my dad always said, you know, I bought a $50 car. And I said, well, well, yeah, but what about when that broke? He goes, I bought another $50 car. That's just how things were. And you know, but then as our wants and everything has changed, we require more money. So women are going back to work, because we've now we need two incomes. I don't know how people are paying a mortgage with one income. So I don't- you know, there's- there's that whole thing, and I think I agree with you, I think that the choosing to stay home, is there some sort of an income? Or is it absolutely zero? Am I at home because I'm an influencer making X amount of money? Or I'm- I'm selling something sort of from home? Maybe an MLM? I don't know. But I don't see a lot of single salary people that are able to do all of the things that they-

Wendy Mesley  31:05  
I don't- I don't see the financial- I mean, obviously, you need two salaries to survive in most cities anyway, today. I completely agree with that. But I think that there's something else going on, which is a lot of young women were raised, like- like I was, by- by a mother who was frustrated at being a woman, and all the things that women were not supposed to do, and so she did not teach me how to do my nails, did not teach me how to iron properly. But there was something missing. And- and it's something that I have- so I was the single kid, or an only kid, my daughter is- our daughter is an only good. And I taught her that love matters too. And- and so I- like- I think I was raised to think that it was all about financial independence and personal independence. But then it was, you know, I was old by the time that I realized that actually, home- home matters, too. So I think it's- it's all- it's all up to us to figure out whatever the balance is.

Melissa Pateras  32:05  
I think the key is balance. And there are situations where it does financially make more sense for one of the parents- I'm not even gonna say the woman- but one of the parents to stay home with kids while they're little, because of maybe daycare situation and how many kids you have in a row in a daycare, needing daycare, but for the most part, I think most people do need two incomes, to be able to do the things that they want. I don't know how many people are actually staying home and not earning any money at all.

Maureen Holloway  32:36  
Yeah, you gotta wonder how big of a deal is that? Melissa, we're out of time.

Wendy Mesley  32:44  
We gotta wrap. 

Maureen Holloway  32:45  
I know, I know. 

Wendy Mesley  32:45  
Yeah, we gotta wrap. 

Maureen Holloway  32:47  
Hey, if you're like me, and you can't get enough of this, you should get Melissa's book. It's called A Dirty Guide to a Clean Home. And it's Melissa Pateras. Or you may know- yes, you may know her as Melissa Dilkes Pateras.

Wendy Mesley  33:00  
Yeah, I know. I do have to pronounce it right. It's been lovely to talk to you, Melissa. And yeah, and thank you for sticking with us. We had a few technical problems off the top. So thank you so much. Yeah, I'm gonna- I will read your book. I won't iron, but I will read your book.

Melissa Pateras  33:16  
I don't think you're ever gonna iron.

Maureen Holloway  33:19  
No, but I will. I'll do her ironing as well. Thank you, Melissa. Good luck with everything.

Melissa Pateras  33:24  
Thank you.

Wendy Mesley  33:28  
Wow, she's- she's- she's great. I'm not a laundry person or an ironing person. But she is really funny. And she has lots of useful information. I just wish that we could get her name right. So it's not Pat-her-ass?

Maureen Holloway  33:42  
It's not Pat-Her-Ass, no. She doesn't- That's Pateras. It's Pateras. Thank you for indulging me with this. This- I do really seriously love this stuff. Like just getting stains out. We could have done half an hour on that easily. But now you know, it's vinegar. 

Wendy Mesley  34:00  
Yeah. Well, I was- maybe it's the old journalist in me, but I was really- look, she goes on and on about Dawn and Tide, which- which are Procter Gamble, I think. Maybe not. But I think they are products that are done by that company. And I was like, yeah, but does she really really like them? But she does. And she's hardly the first person to talk about Dawn or Tide. So I must admit, like everybody does laundry. I do my own laundry. So I don't love it. But I do need to know that stuff. And she- she's funny. 

Maureen Holloway  34:29  
She's funny and- and brave and fearless. And- and- and yeah, you know, she's kind of like- the reason why we kind of went down the tradwife rabbit hole was because she's the opposite of a tradwife, but her advice is embraced by people who are proud homemakers, and I consider myself- I don't know why I have to be apologetic that I love all this stuff. But I am proud. Like when you come and stay over at my place, don't you love your sheets? I iron your pillowcases.

Wendy Mesley  35:00  
So I'm gonna come with a whole bunch of pillowcases that you're gonna iron. Yay!

Maureen Holloway  35:07  
Alright one more plug for Melissa Pateras, the laundry lesbian, you can follow her online and her book's called A Dirty Guide to a Clean Home. 

Mary Anne Ivison (Voiceover)  35:16  
Women of Ill Repute was written and produced by Maureen Holloway and Wendy Mesley. With the help from the team at the Soundoff Media Company and producer Jet Belgraver.